Oprah on Puppymills

    • Gold Top Dog

    I thought it was well done am watching the end of it now... bawling like a baby the whole time.

    All I can say is I don't feel you can simultaneously be a "responsible breeder" and sell to pet stores, no reputable, responsible breeder I know would hand over puppies to an unapproved home.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I thought she did a very good job. I wish she had stressed reputable breeders more. It would have been nice if she had posted a list of things to look for or ask a potential breeder, but as it was, I thought it was a really great way to educate the public.

    I was educated about one thing. That is that many of these puppy mill owners have a very different view of dogs than we (dog-lovers) do. Many see them as livestock. They're no different than cows, chickens or sheep... How many people know, much less have concern for chickens who are raised in deplorable conditions? I know about it, but it doesn't change the fact that I still eat chicken and eggs. Wouldn't I be a hypocrite to insist that dogs get treated better without insisting that ALL animals, regardless of their purpose, get better treatment?

    And for that reason, I don't think I would be supportive of legislation to outlaw puppy mills. I think the best way to bring about change is to educate people on what to look for when shopping for a puppy or dog. If people stop buying puppies from pet stores, and instead, insist on visiting the puppy and seeing its parents, then breeders are going to have to straighten up their acts or get into another business.

    The message of spay and neuter and shelter and rescue organizations was really great. I hope it makes a difference. 

    HoundMusic
    They need to get licensed & up to code or put out of business.

     

    Does licensing require genetic testing? Or is it about an inspector who looks at the kennel and signs it off as "good enough for dogs"? Because unless breeders are doing genetic testing on their dogs, they should NOT be breeding. Call them BYBs or puppymills or commercial breeders or whatever you want. If they're breeding animals that carry genetic illnesses and defects into the puppy "pool" then they are adding to the problem. They ARE the problem.

    I'd like to know what having a license to breed actually means. My suspicion is that it doesn't take much to get one and therefore doesn't mean a lot. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If we weren't killing 4 million dogs and cats a year, I might not feel so adamant about this.

    Don't "reputable breeders" ALL do genetic testing?  

    • Gold Top Dog

     I agree Sera...

    I think it is as simple as putting the words "commercial" and "breeder" together that say more than enough...  responsible just doesn't fit between the two.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Dog_ma

    HoundMusic
    If someone keeps their dogs well and wants to sell pups to a pet store, they should have the right to. That doesn't automatically make them disreputable.
     

    It does in my book.

    You don't have a problem with pet stores, obviously.

    Me too... anyways, I was pleasantly surprised that they did mention reputable breeders. All in all, I think it'll be a positive impact.
    • Puppy

     I thought the show was well done and hope there will be a follow-up.  I am a petsitter and have also done lots of rescue.  Almost every day I get a call about a pet store dog that's sick and/or in need of a home.  What I am hoping is that Oprah will do a show that backtracks the whole process of getting to the pet store.  Beginning at the mill, then showing the brokers loading up hundreds of too young puppies into the tractor trailers for the ride to whoever is going to make the next chunk of $  off the backs ot these poor puppies.  They should then have someone be there when the truck pulls in to unload them, count the ones who didn't make it, and so on.  I would love to see the brokers like Hunte, Lambriar, etc. exposed, too.  It was a great start, though!

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    I was educated about one thing. That is that many of these puppy mill owners have a very different view of dogs than we (dog-lovers) do. Many see them as livestock. They're no different than cows, chickens or sheep... How many people know, much less have concern for chickens who are raised in deplorable conditions? I know about it, but it doesn't change the fact that I still eat chicken and eggs. Wouldn't I be a hypocrite to insist that dogs get treated better without insisting that ALL animals, regardless of their purpose, get better treatment?

    And for that reason, I don't think I would be supportive of legislation to outlaw puppy mills. I think the best way to bring about change is to educate people on what to look for when shopping for a puppy or dog. If people stop buying puppies from pet stores, and instead, insist on visiting the puppy and seeing its parents, then breeders are going to have to straighten up their acts or get into another business.

    I have to make somewhat of a difference here --

    chicken, eggs, and even beef (which should be a bigger deal here but it isn't) -- the regulations on that should be better simply because it's our food supply.  So their conditions should be sanitary and their deaths not slow/painful and they should be healthy - not only because they are a living thing but simply because they ARE our food-supply.

    However I honestly don't think you can paint it all with the same brush and say that "pet" dogs have to come under the same legislation as "food animals" and livestock.

     Why?  Because we feed and house pets.  We pay for veterinary care for them to give them a long, healthy life and if they are bred badly it causes extra expense on the people who take them in. 

    However, I think the decision of how good a 'quality' pup you buy has to be up to the purchaser.  By requiring things like genetic testing for ALL puppies?  First off all you'll drive the cost of ANY puppy to astronomical heights, and you'll simply set up a black market opportunity for puppies.

    As much as we would all like to see back yard breeders and such go out of business -- they won't. 

    We have to remember here -- we can't legilslate morality successfully.  We can educate people, we can tell them what they SHOULD buy, but we can't take away basic rights.  You can't make it illegal for someone to allow their dog to get pregnant, essentially -- you can only legislate businesses and "quantity". 

    I'm not saying this well at all -- but we have to be careful of a knee jerk reaction here because if we narrow it down so that only "good breeders" can breed puppies then we are essentiallyplaying right into the activists hands who want to make sure "pets" are simply exterminated.  Who determines what 'good breeders' are??  Where does polish, inspections and **paperwork** become a substitute for good judgment and good care and love?

    Unfortunately we all want hard and fast 'rules' -- give me GUIDELINES we scream. 

    But it's those guidelines that give birth to things like rescue groups whose standards are so high no one can adopt from them, and ultimately it just winds up being more rules that aren't followed and someone else finding a way to profit by circumventing them.

    Rather than "rules" and "laws" let's educate people so they know when the puppies in front of them are sick.  So they know it's not good to put a baby puppy on a plane and send him as cargo 4000 miles because that breeder had the best website.

    Most of all I wish we could get people to understand when they are being "sold" something rather than when something is good or not.  We are all such a product of this commerical age -- put something on a billboard and it's gotta be GOOD right??  If they have a nice commercial or website they've gotta be reputable right?  If they are licensed and bonded should be ok, right??

     No. 

    *sigh*  Why do they call it "common sense" when it's so incredibly UN-common?

    • Gold Top Dog

    outdoorschik


    I think it is as simple as putting the words "commercial" and "breeder" together that say more than enough...  responsible just doesn't fit between the two.

     

    I agree. At least you would think it would be as simple as what you have said.


    • Gold Top Dog

    PS

    FourIsCompany
    I'd like to know what having a license to breed actually means. My suspicion is that it doesn't take much to get one and therefore doesn't mean a lot. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If we weren't killing 4 million dogs and cats a year, I might not feel so adamant about this.

    You're right -- it doesn't mean much -- they come under the USDA so it's the same regulations that cover livestock - they have to be inspected periodically, etc. but no -- there's no testing, etc. -- it's all about how 'clean' it is (when inspected) and that the animals have the 'basics' of food, water, shelter -- not much more than your basic chained dog gets. 

    And I'm not sure but I don't think they're even required to do that much unless they are doing a certain volume of business as a re-seller.

    Call your county or city and find out what you need to have a "kennel".  A license and that's about it.  But what you DO with that kennel then comes under other auspices -- and when you bring "profit" into it -- there's more licensing and then you have inspections, etc.  (Particularly if there is intra/inter-state trade, etc going on). 

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs
    However, I think the decision of how good a 'quality' pup you buy has to be up to the purchaser.  By requiring things like genetic testing for ALL puppies?  First off all you'll drive the cost of ANY puppy to astronomical heights, and you'll simply set up a black market opportunity for puppies.

     

    Just to clarify, I don't mean testing every puppy. I mean testing your breeding stock. Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    I wasn't home today and asked DH to watch for me.  The first thing he said when I walked in the door was "gee, thanks a lot.  I cried like a baby the whole show".  I just finished watching on line, and this was an outstanding show.  Very impressive.  A very powerful show and I hope to heck the ratings were HUGE.

    I do not know a single reputable breeder who is willing to sell pups at a pet store, and it's not very likely that really GOOD breeders don't give a darned what kinds of homes their pups end up in.  

    Thank you Oprah for opening some eyes, and hopefully some minds. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Bordercolliemom

    As a resident of PA, I was glad to see it make national news on Oprah!  I have a friend who toured these puppy mills for the state and was outraged at the conditions!!!  This was not about rebutable breeders, this was about the abuse that goes on!!!  It was a good show!!!  It broke my heart!!!!

     

         Actually ... if anyone noticed, when they were asked where puppy mills were concentrated, even though Missouri has the highest volume of licensed breeders who sell to pet stores (and when prompted, the ARs said that 99% of breeders selling to pet stores were mills), the state of Missouri was NEVER mentioned. Instead, Pennsylvania was the only state mentioned by name, though they did say "midwestern" breeders were usually mills ... They were very adamant about PA being the state with the worst PM problem.

         Why is it that the AR groups who have touted Missouri as being the "puppy mill capital" didn't even mention it once? Because there is currently anti breeder legislation being proposed in Pennsylvania right now - I believe it's the same or a similar one that just passed in Virginia. So this entire show was an attempt by the ARs to generate support for this new anti breeder bill. They showed unlicensed Amish breeders who go under the radar as it is - and in reality, the Amish are a problem - yet they make up only a small portion of breeders in PA.  

         When you show a bitch whose mammaries are swollen (with milk!) and claim that is a sure sign of overbreeding/neglect, then you loose all credability with me.

     http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=3391

    Pennsylvania Governor to Propose Rewrite of State Dog Law and New Proposed Dog Law Regulations
    [Friday, December 21, 2007]
    On December 19 representatives of the American Kennel Club (AKC) and the Pennsylvania Federation of Dog Clubs met with officials representing Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell's office and the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture at their request to discuss a broad rewrite of Pennsylvania's dog law and implementing kennel regulations. The Governor's spokesman indicated the Governor wants to introduce the new legislation soon after the Pennsylvania legislature reconvenes in late January, 2008. The Governor's office is reaching out to a broad cross section of animal interest groups before introducing his new proposals in hopes of avoiding the near unanimous opposition to proposed dog law regulatory amendments that were proposed by the Governor in December, 2006.

    The proposal would constitute the most comprehensive rewrite of the Pennsylvania Dog Law since its enactment in 1982. According to the Governor's spokesman, the new proposals address many of the criticisms and suggestions made in more than 60,000 written comments that were filed on the earlier proposed regulatory amendments. The new proposals are in still in draft form, and are being distributed to interest groups on the condition that they not be made public at this time. The AKC and PA Federation agreed to review the drafts and provide input, but will take no position on the proposals until final language is agreed upon and publicly released.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm soo glad she did this show. I am especially glad she advocated people get their pets from shelters. I mean honestly, unless you plan to show your dog-which is a VERY small part dog owners, what do you need to go to a breeder for? (I have no problem with reputable breeders-I love seeing the beautiful different breeds, but for my needs and the needs of most pet owners, it's unneccesary.) My big old mutt is everything I could want in a dog.

    Watching the part about the shelter made me so sad. My big guy came from a shelter, and he was "on sale" because he's big and black and a mutt and thus less adoptable than other dogs. I can't help but imagine him in the place of those dogs who were being put to sleep. And I can't imagine my life without him. I just hate the idea of perfectly good dogs dying because they got a bad roll of the dice.

    Now I need to go hug my dog.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    recclest

    I'm soo glad she did this show. I am especially glad she advocated people get their pets from shelters. I mean honestly, unless you plan to show your dog-which is a VERY small part dog owners, what do you need to go to a breeder for? (I have no problem with reputable breeders-I love seeing the beautiful different breeds, but for my needs and the needs of most pet owners, it's unneccesary.) My big old mutt is everything I could want in a dog.

    Watching the part about the shelter made me so sad. My big guy came from a shelter, and he was "on sale" because he's big and black and a mutt and thus less adoptable than other dogs. I can't help but imagine him in the place of those dogs who were being put to sleep. And I can't imagine my life without him. I just hate the idea of perfectly good dogs dying because they got a bad roll of the dice.

    Now I need to go hug my dog.

     

    I actually watched the show with my shelter girl, Sassy, lying on my lap. I cried like a baby and hugged her close when I watched them putting those dogs to sleep. A black lab in an overcrowded shelter doesn't stand much of a chance and it breaks my heart to think of what might've happened to her. How those people do that job every day is beyond me. I'd need therapy after just one day Crying

     I thought the show was excellent and as I've said enough already, why any reputable breeder would have any concerns is beyond me. If you're not reputable and run anything that slightly resembles some of those kennels they showed, then I hope you're afraid. Very, very afraid.Super Angry

    • Gold Top Dog

    Interesting historical note - animal welfare activists inspired people to advocate for the protection of children. Yes, before there were children's welfare activists, working to prevent abuse, there were animal welfare activists.

    If anyone is interested in reading about it, here is a nice summary - http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/1361/Child-Abuse-History-ABUSE-DURING-INDUSTRIAL-REVOLUTION.html

    Sometimes animal welfare activists are ahead of their time, I think.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

     Houndmusic, I'm having a hard time seeing why you were so down on this episode.  So they didn't mention Missouri by name?  They did a huge service to dogs everywhere by doing this show.  Bringing awareness to dogs in shelters and showing where the dogs you buy online come from... they aren't the cute little creatures sitting on felt that came from their mama 'Pookie' running around on a 50 acre farm, they come from filth and mistreatment from people who see them as disposable. 

     I personally say good on those people who got this message out to MILLIONS of people today.