Iditarod 2008 fatality update

Honestly, this is hard to swallow......why would a school teacher and students....and there were a few other folks who witnessed this lie about Brooks? What is their motivation behind it?

There was even a statement that he used his fist to hit a dog.....now, what would be the motivation for Brooks to admit to this? Of course, he is going to deny that......

This was out in the bush. People see what they want to see.... and make up the rest. No one was close enough to actually see what happened. It's a race for a lot of money, and people take sides. Sad, but true.

I'm not saying he didn't lose his temper, I'm not saying he didn't yell at his dogs and I'm not saying he didn't spank them...he did, and it sounded bad, and it looked bad but fact is, if he hadn't gotten those dogs moving they all would have died in the cold.  And he felt bad about losing his temper and yelling and making a scene.
The thing he spanked them with was a 1/4 inch x 1 inch lathe trail stick. It would break before doing any harm at all.  His dogs were examined fully and ALL were in perfect condition! By TWO vets!
This is a moot discussion. You really ought to go to the archives and see what I wrote before. It would help to fill you in.
On the internet is is so very easy to say very mean things about people. It happens all the time. Not everything written in newspapers, books, internet, is true. Just because someone said it doesn't make it true. Not even because a lot of people said it makes it true.
Heck, look at the Iraq war. Where are the WMDs? But people kept saying there were there...so.....
And right now I'm off to go see the North American Sprint Races!  http://www.sleddog.org/races/onac/index.html

jeano

Honestly, this is hard to swallow......why would a school teacher and students....and there were a few other folks who witnessed this lie about Brooks? What is their motivation behind it?

There was even a statement that he used his fist to hit a dog.....now, what would be the motivation for Brooks to admit to this? Of course, he is going to deny that......

 

This was out in the bush. People see what they want to see.... and make up the rest. No one was close enough to actually see what happened. It's a race for a lot of money, and people take sides. Sad, but true.

I'm not saying he didn't lose his temper, I'm not saying he didn't yell at his dogs and I'm not saying he didn't spank them...he did, and it sounded bad, and it looked bad but fact is, if he hadn't gotten those dogs moving they all would have died in the cold.  And he felt bad about losing his temper and yelling and making a scene.
The thing he spanked them with was a 1/4 inch x 1 inch lathe trail stick. It would break before doing any harm at all.  His dogs were examined fully and ALL were in perfect condition! By TWO vets!
This is a moot discussion. You really ought to go to the archives and see what I wrote before. It would help to fill you in.
On the internet is is so very easy to say very mean things about people. It happens all the time. Not everything written in newspapers, books, internet, is true. Just because someone said it doesn't make it true. Not even because a lot of people said it makes it true.
Heck, look at the Iraq war. Where are the WMDs? But people kept saying there were there...so.....
And right now I'm off to go see the North American Sprint Races!  http://www.sleddog.org/races/onac/index.html

OMG, you really think that's not abusive.  WOWZA.  How could anyone defend that behavior.  I'm not sure why you would think it's a moot discussion or why others aren't allowed to interpret the facts for themselves.  Just because they didn't have significant physical damage doesn't mean there isn't psychologic damage.  I have to examine kids from time to time that were horriby beaten with no external signs of trauma, that doesn't mean they werent' damaged  I guess it just depends on whose account you believe and how you think you should treat living creatures.  Even by your account it sounds horrible IMO and I've read several other accounts as well.

As for the mushers who scratched citing illness/injury, I don't really see that as such a bad thing; doesn't that mean that the mushers noticed signs of health problems in their dogs, and dropped out of the race before those problems escalated into something more serious that could have caused a fatality? (JMO) 

And as for the dogs that "don't cut it for races," I believe that they are usually either rehomed as pets (if they genuinely have no desire to run), or re-homed with less competitive or recreational mushers if they like to run but aren't quite good enough to cut it in serious, competitive racing.  I'm relatively new to dog-sledding, but I know of plenty of mushers who've made their teams using other people's 'recycled' dogs.

Don't get me wrong, I do think the Iditarod is risky.  But... I also really don't think the dogs would run it if they didn't enjoy it; after all, they are not being "forced" to run in any way, shape or form (and everyone saw what happened last year to the musher who did try to force his dogs to run; he got disqualified).  Mushers have lost the race in the past because their teams just decided they'd had enough and refused to run any more, and there was nothing the mushers could do about it.  So obviously if the dogs didn't want to run, they wouldn't be doing it.  I also think that the mushers really do love and care about their dogs, and that the dogs are given the best veterinary care possible.  That being said I really do hope that veterinary medicine advaces even more in the future to the point where dog fatalities are no longer an annual occurence.  For what it's worth, here's a link to an article that was written as a response to Iditarod critics: http://www.geocities.com/sunhusky/IditaFacts.html  It has a lot of links and information regarding how the dogs are cared for in the race, as well as the conditions they live in when they are not racing.  It takes a while to read the whole article, but it's very interesting.

I don't really consider myself a rabid Iditarod fan (personally, I'm more of a mid-distance person), and the race may not be perfect, but for the most part I support it, and I have a lot of respect for the people and (especially) the dogs who participate in it.   

 don't think the dogs would run it if they didn't enjoy it; after all, they are not being "forced" to run in any way, shape or form

 This statement is seemingly quite erroneous.

So, mushers that scratched citing "Illness" in reference to their team was just a strategy???

--No, some may be ill.  Some bet a 'bug' like our pet dogs sometimes do.  Rather than allow those dogs to continue and get dehydrated, their mushers drop them.  I don't see what the big deal is, some of you act like these dogs are somehow different from our own.   

So, what happens to the ones that don't cut it for races.....how are they being disposed off? According to your experience, they are worthless as pets.....

--Most go on to be productive members of recreational teams.  Us purebred people call them 'cheater dogs' because they come to you already trained (they maybe weren't fast enough for a race team) and they are used to train the other dogs on the rec team.  *Some,* not many, do become pets...but just the lower key ones.  Others end up in those resorts where you can go dog sledding where they take runs a few days a week.  In Alaska some places still use sleddogs to get around, some of the dogs get dispersed there.   

Of course, that makes sense.....as I know that sled dogs are not kept in an open enclosure

 --Some are or at least, most get time free running too.  I guess I question the difference between being tethered on a 6' chain vs being in a dog run of the same size.  A lot of mushers take their dogs free running (remember, no roads to worry about) alongside the ATV to a watering hole for a swim.  It's great for keeping them in shape in the off-season.

--So far as the hitting the team last year...I do believe he was dealt with?  What more do you want, a firing squad?  You can't assume all the mushers do that just because one did. 

Previous post: "don't think the dogs would run it if they didn't enjoy it; after all, they are not being "forced" to run in any way, shape or form

 This statement is seemingly quite erroneous."

 Nope, not wrong at all!  I have even on my personal team had my dogs just plain quit.  Ya know what?  There wasn't a thing I could do about it. Dee Dee Jonrowe's team just plain quit once out on the trail, others have had that.  You go NOWHERE until the dogs are good and ready.  If there's a dog or two who doesn't want to run, they are simply unhooked and they ride in the sled to the next checkpoint where they are flown back to Ancorage or to Nome.  Some dogs might not feel quite right and due to their stoic nature, they keep going without showing any signs of a problem...that's a hard one to deal with. 

Veterinary advancements have been made from studying the race dogs.  Check into it, it's quite wonderful.  No 'experimentation', just analyzing their bloodwork, EKGs, etc.  You all have benefitted from this race and don't even know it. 

jeano

I'm not saying he didn't lose his temper, I'm not saying he didn't yell at his dogs and I'm not saying he didn't spank them...he did, and it sounded bad, and it looked bad but fact is, if he hadn't gotten those dogs moving they all would have died in the cold.  And he felt bad about losing his temper and yelling and making a scene.
The thing he spanked them with was a 1/4 inch x 1 inch lathe trail stick. It would break before doing any harm at all.  His dogs were examined fully and ALL were in perfect condition! By TWO vets!

First you claimed he would never do such a thing...then you say he just spanked the dogs.....so, which is it?

Spanking does sound better than beating......doesn't it.....btw, that year was a bad one for him....he also lost one of his dogs on the trail....

http://iditarod.aprn.org/2007/03/18/ramy-brooks-disqualified-from-race/

While Ramy may have done wrong and certainly admits to what he did, that doesn't mean the race is bad. And race officials have dealt with him. But the race gets so much press. It is known as the Last Great Race. And it is the most visible animal sport in the minds of many. So when even one dog dies, it gets attention.

Also, it was stated earlier that he popped his dogs with a stick to get them moving so that they wouldn't freeze out there. The type of stick involved can very easily break and you can't do much damage with them. That being said, I don't support the use of them. If I couldn't get the dogs motivated to get moving, slapping their rumps with the stick won't help either.

Secondly, if we're talking about Siberian Huskies, they are not going to freeze to death. These dogs can regularly withstand temps of - 70 F. I have heard and read from more than one musher that anything above is - 30 F is pretty much too warm run anything other than short sprints. No, the only one in danger of freezing is the human. The dogs are just fine with the cold. So, the excuse of prodding them to get up and run to avoid freezing is a fiat excuse. So there is a danger, which is my only concern, with the competitive nature of Man. I would rather see the race turned into a memorial run and no prizes for who comes in first.

Also, the results of the necropsies often don't get released until a few months later. By that time, the media has forgotten about it.

And these dogs receive the best vet care year-round, not just at the race. They have any combination of kibble, raw, and homecooked diets that are monitored by vets, not just people who read a book or two. And the only way to manage an 80 dog kennel is tie-outs and zip lines. And there are volunteers (there's no money in it) who spend a chunk of each day attending to the dogs and the dog yard. At a smaller kennel of say 16 to 20 dogs, it is possible to run each dog every day on places spanning dozens of acres, both free running and in harness and gangline.

During the race, when at a race stop, the dogs are attended to first, sometimes before the musher has had a chance to potty. Stronger than any official rule is the common rule that the musher who eats before his dogs do is a lousy excuse for a human being.

Back to the stick. If I were to swat Shadow with such a stick, a few things might happen. He might look and wonder what is it. He might ignore it. Or turn around and snap it in two. Again, I question the use of the sticks. I also agree that Ramy showed loss of control and should lose race privileges.

But the race is not bad, in and of itself. These dogs are bred to run and pull. The ones that do it well get to breed and the culls do not get to breed. That has been the guiding factor in the breeding of Alaskan Huskies which is not an actual breed but a type of dog. Purposefully outbred to achieve the fastest, strongest sled ever.

And sled dogs are independent. If they don't want to go, they ain't going. Trust me. OTOH, when they are ready to go, you have to have your foot on the snow brake and a snow hook set to avoid tearing off. In order to have the drive to run and pull, they are not initially going to want to walk in heel or behind the human. In fact, they have to be out in front in order to pull the sled. Which leads to another point. These are working dogs, just as much as a livestock guardian dog is a working dog. Their life is going to be different than Fluffy, the West Highland Terrier.

It seems that every year, someone gets up in arms over the Iditarod. As has been pointed out, the Yukon Quest is a much tougher race but doesn't get near the press. Anyone here besides me seen rough stock rodeo? I find that horrifying. How about China raising St. Bernards as a food? That offends my western provincial attitude. OTOH, they may take loving care of the dogs before rendering.

Dogs can die in the race. Mine could die chewing on a stick in the backyard. Another dog might die from an intestinal perforation from eating raw bones. Does it happen all the time? Of course not. But there is a risk. There's a risk when you walk out the door.

That being said, I think it's okay to always monitor the health and safety of the animals in any activity and I'm pleased that we care this much.

ron2

Secondly, if we're talking about Siberian Huskies, they are not going to freeze to death. These dogs can regularly withstand temps of - 70 F. I have heard and read from more than one musher that anything above is - 30 F is pretty much too warm run anything other than short sprints. No, the only one in danger of freezing is the human. The dogs are just fine with the cold. So, the excuse of prodding them to get up and run to avoid freezing is a fiat excuse. So there is a danger, which is my only concern, with the competitive nature of Man. I would rather see the race turned into a memorial run and no prizes for who comes in first.

I agree with the last part of your statement...but not the first part......

Most dogs running the Iditarod are not purebred Sibes......except for Karen Ramstead's team....and she is not very competitive.....the "Alaskan Husky" is a mix of Sibe and Hound.....so, some dogs have less hair than your dog........I have seen some pretty scrawny looking dogs with little hair on some teams......and, dogs do suffer from frostbite....even in very tender places.......

ron2

Back to the stick. If I were to swat Shadow with such a stick, a few things might happen. He might look and wonder what is it. He might ignore it. Or turn around and snap it in two.

Honestly, Ron.......as much as you promote "Hands Off" in training.....for the sake of the dogs in racing......does that not apply all around?

Just to remember how tough this race is in reference to dogs and mushers.............for updates, make sure to refresh the site every so often.....

http://www.iditarod.com/press/

Seems to be a lot of contradictory statements on this topic...Meaning, saying one thing as a statement of fact and then w/in the next couple posts, something that negates the first "fact"...  Seemingly the roughness of the race /mushers   on animals is being supported by the thought that these dogs have no life worth living if it were not for this hard and difficult to endure  "race". 

The fact that it is a race to win would encourage a great deal of forcing on rather than perhaps using more humane judgement to repair/renew ..Whereas if it were more the ethic of "how well you played the game" and less the cash prize, perhaps we would not see spankings, hitting with a little stick (rule of thumb, about not beating your wife with a stick wider than your thumb, so it is ok...), to aspirating stomach contents, overexhaustion, frost bite,....

What could be repaired by changing out dogs after a normal stint ...rather than pushing the limits to the demise of these "work dogs".?

 It is great that they have a lot of well trained persons around, and veterinarians, but sounds like there is a very great need for them and the forced nature of this particular grueling race.  And these dogs are not always willing and able, and sure does appear that if they need a "spanking" to get up and continue, that forced is certainly what that is.  Willing and able means they do the job without suffering penalties of being hit  or kicked.  A simple command is all that is needed for a dog that is willing and able.

powderhound

OK, I can't keep quiet.  Please take the time to read about the race and the dogs, the information is available online.  PETA, Sleddog Coalition, etc, are not reliable sources for information on this topic, the information they put out is INCREDIBLY distorted.

  Glad someone pointed this out! Animal Rights organizations are not a reliable source of info on any subject. PETA is against breeding of dogs for any reason and feels it would be best if no domestic animals were ever to be born. They are not just against mushing but against animals "working" in any way, including service dogs trained to assist handicap owners. 

AgileGSD

powderhound

OK, I can't keep quiet.  Please take the time to read about the race and the dogs, the information is available online.  PETA, Sleddog Coalition, etc, are not reliable sources for information on this topic, the information they put out is INCREDIBLY distorted.

  Glad someone pointed this out! Animal Rights organizations are not a reliable source of info on any subject. PETA is against breeding of dogs for any reason and feels it would be best if no domestic animals were ever to be born. They are not just against mushing but against animals "working" in any way, including service dogs trained to assist handicap owners. 

I don't think I linked to any of the above named sources....did I?

I pointed all folks right to the original source....."Iditarod.com"..the facts are the facts....dogs die, get injured and get sick....... and the original serum run was not even close to what today's dogs have to endure....so, who is being off base?

snownose

.....the "Alaskan Husky" is a mix of Sibe and Hound.....so, some dogs have less hair than your dog........I have seen some pretty scrawny looking dogs with

Agreed, some Alaskan Huskies don't have the fur of a true Sibe. But Alaskan Husky started with a few lines that had specific influences. The Huslia line was Sibe, wolf, Irish Wolfhond, German Pointer.

As for the other post about the stick, of course I wouldn't use it. I was trying to make a point but emotions are running a little high.

snownose

I don't think I linked to any of the above named sources....did I?

I pointed all folks right to the original source....."Iditarod.com"..the facts are the facts....dogs die, get injured and get sick....... and the original serum run was not even close to what today's dogs have to endure....so, who is being off base?

 I don't think I addressed that to you personally...did I?

 Much of the info here was very AR sounding and some was off base. A lot of what the general public thinks they know about sledding is from AR sources because they campaign against it.

 I think it is unfortunate that doegs die and get injured during the race but it doesn't mean the dogs are being abused or forced. It is risky and is risky for the humans as well. Dogs also can die and get injured doing other "work" such as herding, hunting and coursing. Not every dog should or wants to live a cushy pet life. And even those who dog may die, become ill or get injured through any number of things - getting hit by a car, taking a wrong step while playing, grabbing a stick the wrong way while playing, swallowing things they shouldn't. Just last summer, hundreds of dogs became sick or died because of the type of food they are eating. Life is full of risks.