20 People, Gunshot End Pit Bull Attack

Just my 2 cents worth - we have BSL over here in the UK purely because of irresponsible owners like this.  Horribly sad story, but huge media interest because of the breed.

IMO there is no such thing as a dangerous dog, but there are plenty of dangerous owners out there.

AuroraLove

Thank you for your civil reply but its 100% ridiculous to say that any other loose dog excpet a pit bull would never kill a small animal. Its hilarious to hear you say you know none of your dogs EVER got ahold of a rabbit, squirrel or bird. Should I bore you with my stories of being attacked by a chi when I was younger? They are vicous too and just because they cant do the same damage as a larger dog dosnt make them any nicer....its the owners who coddle and baby them in thier pink sweaters......see its the deed not the breed.

Well, gee.  I never said any other breed other than a pit bull wouldn't attack an animal.  My response where I mentioned loose dogs in our old neighborhood was in response to Xeres post to me about prey drive.  But that is just what I'm starting to get real tired of.  Suddenly every reference to aggression is somehow tied to pit bulls.  Someone moves out of the way of a big dog and suddenly it's because it was a pit bull.  Couldn't possilby be for any number of other reasons, such as the person moving out of the way is dealing with their own nervous dog.  I only mentioned breeds because those were the actual breeds that came a-visiting.  It stated nowhere in my post that I have anything against pit bulls.  I HAVE HAD PIT BULLS BEFORE!!!!  And one in particular was a dog of my heart. 

It may be hilarious for you to hear that my dogs (even though they weren't even my dogs I was talking about in that instance) never got ahold of a rabbit or squirrel, but since they were never out of our sight on trail rides I can assume I would have seen it.  Further, the dogs were frequent visitors to our own ranch where we have rabbits and chickens and we never had any problem.

 See, this is the thing.  I realize it's tough to own a bully breed these days, but it's also tough to have to take your life in your hands every time you take your dog out in public.  I never said a word about pit bulls nor did I imply it or mean it.  I said dog aggressive dogs.  But here you are taking it to mean pits.  And, by the way, BSL refers to a lot more breeds than pit bulls.

kelliope

Too many people these days are excusing dog-dog aggression as somehow not being as important as human-aggression.  I think it is nearly as important because it can cause great trauma and grief also.

 Again, my point is this - everyone keeps saying that the real culprit here is the owner of the pit because the dog was loose -

Kelliope you make an excellent point. I am of the belief IF people were actually held responsible for the actions of thier kids , thier dogs and thier family maybe , just maybe peole would stop looking the other way when one crosses a line.

Having had my dogs attacked ON my property in front of me when i was a teen I agree the trauma is enourmous. My dog did not die, He was a wolf Hybred , a gift from the Rodeo Champion of Mexico in the late 70's  Lobo, (I did not name him) was devoted and awesome , he also had wild tendencies. Killing my entire chicken coup laying the hens and rooster side by side more to amuse hime self than anything else. But when the Neighbors Saint Bernard cam einto our 6 foot chain link property the fight was ferocious and  wild. I managed to seperate the dogs, still am not sure how. But once apart I pulled Lobo away to a box stall . He went in and certainly could have gotten out but responed to the stay command. I grabbed the siant by the ruff and led him back to his family. They wanted over 300.00 for his "wounds" remember this was 1977. That was an astronomical bill in thoes days !! My mom took exception to the notation on the dog's chart that he needed a huge enema since he was blocked from fear.... rather than give him a glass of milk or another holistic attempt at controling his blockage they wanted the enema paid for... the vet blew them out of the water when My mom called the, and they told her they had used CLorox to clean his wounds.  Lobo had  a lot of bruising but he definelty dealt more hurt than he recieved.  They threatened to sue for years. We could never understand , the Saint came on our fenced property how were we at fault??

Bonita of Bwana

I'll say it one last time.  If someone has a dog that IF it got loose, would attack and potentially kill another dog in the neighborhood, that person has no business having that dog.  I DON'T CARE WHAT BREED IT IS!  A dog that if loose would attack and potentially kill a neighbor's dog is a ticking time bomb.  And no one has the right to put their neighbor's or their pets at that kind of risk. Dog-dog aggression of that magnitude should not be tolerated or excused.  Period.

100% agreed!

Aside from all this....isnt it funny how the media says "20 people".....gosh its hard to imagine them telling a accurate story on the war, politics, and the presidential race especially if they cant get a animal story correct!

kelliope

I'll say it one last time.  If someone has a dog that IF it got loose, would attack and potentially kill another dog in the neighborhood, that person has no business having that dog.  I DON'T CARE WHAT BREED IT IS!  A dog that if loose would attack and potentially kill a neighbor's dog is a ticking time bomb.  And no one has the right to put their neighbor's or their pets at that kind of risk. Dog-dog aggression of that magnitude should not be tolerated or excused.  Period.

See, to me, the whole prey drive thing is a complicated issue. 

ANY large dog most certainly has the potential to kill a small dog.  My lab, who loves other dogs, large and small (has played nicely with a mini dachshund in fact), but will chase anything that runs, could most definitely kill a small dog if all the factors came together just right (I have seen him display things like stalking behaviors during play).  I would be a bit surprised, but I do see how it could happen.  Should I get rid of him because he could be a ticking time bomb?

What about those people on here whose dogs regularly kill small, furry, animals?  Should those people all get rid of their dogs?

The simply reality of owning dogs is that you are inviting a creature into your home that is a domesticated, social, predator, and often many of those instincts are very much still present.  The deciding factor here, IMHO, is dog owner.  People need to see dogs for what they really are--animals.  Animals with real drives and real instincts all their own--not just little fuzzy humans, or manifestations of their own inflated egos.

That having been said, I do think that the majority of people really cannot handle a dog with a moderate to high prey drive, but knowing what you can and cannot handle in a dog is an owner responsibility thing.  I have had temporary custody of a dog that had what can only be described as a scary prey drive.  I had only had Sally, my first dog, for a few months (and was very new to dogs) when Buster was thrust upon me (loooonnng story), but it did not take me long to realize that this dog was way beyond what I could handle at the time (or even now).  He had a desire to kill my cats like I'd never seen--I had to literally tackle him to save them once.  He'd go after anything much smaller than himself, and livestock.  he grabbed my horse by the nose--left him with bite marks and a bloody nose.  We ended up handing him over to a rescue group because I just did not feel comfortable having a dog like that as my responsibility.  

Actually, out of all my animals, the one most likely to kill a dog or cat is my horse.  He has attacked a dog (bitten and struck at) a couple of times and has tried very hard to take out our barn cat--at least twice that I have witnessed.  Once he tried to kick him and another time he attempted to stomp him to death.

I hope that post made sense, as it is late and I'm really tired.....
 
 

Well, I highly doubt your horse, if it was to get out, would seek out and try to kill a neighbor's dog.

Furthermore, I agree that the average person is not capable of handling a dog with a "high prey drive".  Which is why I wonder why so many "high prey drive" dogs are promoted as great family pets.

But I can assure you, we have had virtually all breeds of dogs on our farm - all rescues with problems - and all were able to be trained, conditioned and socialized out of their prey drive.   Our worst case, a cat-killing Great Dane, was cured and completely trustworthy around cats after that - and believe me he was around a ton of cats - many newcomers that at first would run from the dogs.  We never had another problem.

 My dogs currently play with my mom's 7 dogs.  A rottie, a cocker spaniel, a corgi/spaniel cross, a terrier cross, a chinese crested powderpuff, a toy fox terrier and a tibetan terrier.  Not one of these dogs goes after cats, chickens, rabbits or my small dogs.  In additon they are kind and gentle with dogs coming onto the property and with all of our neighbor's dogs.  That is the kind of community I choose to live in and I think most people would enjoy not fearing for their lives or their dogs lives or their cats lives everytime someone's dog is loose or they set foot off their property.

Compare that with the very sad story I had to deal with about a neighbor whose 2 "high prey drive" jack russells dug under their very secure fencing - way under, past the screen they put down to prevent that - and chased the neighbor's 2 elderly cats into the house through the cat door and slaughtered them in their kitchen.  That was a lovely homecoming for the cat owner's.  Yet, here were the dogs - just acting on their "high prey drive".  Boy, I'd sure want to live next to those people.

I cannot stand people that think it's OK for dogs to be dog-aggressive or cat-aggressive.  Especially while living in town with other people and their pets.  We just don't need that kind of behavior/breeding whatever.  It is not OK and that is what I mean by a ticking time bomb.

If you want to nit-pick what I am saying here - go ahead - I know where I stand and I stand by my beliefs.

kelliope

I cannot stand people that think it's OK for dogs to be dog-aggressive or cat-aggressive. 

Dogs are predators.  I don't understand why one would own a dog if the fact that they are predators is unacceptable?

Owners have the responsibility to manage their dogs. If I needed a dog that would never ever hurt another living being, I'd get a stuffed one. I'm serious!  I don't think it is ok for dog aggressive or high prey dogs to roam the neighborhood. At all, ever.

So, you have never, ever had your dog get away from you?  Or get out?  Ever?

Well, sorry it happens.  And I don't think anyone else should have to suffer because someone chooses a "high prey drive" dog for their "pet" in a community where other people have pets also.  I can assure you if my dogs ever got out they wouldn't be killing anything.  Nor my mother's dogs.  Or our neighbor with the sweet golden. 

I'm not talking about dogs that might bark at other dogs, or might potentially nip if the circumstances all line up.  I'm talking about dogs that seek out and kill things.  Dogs living in town. 

I swear, it's the attitudes on this very board that nearly make me in favor of BSL (with exceptions for dogs that are proven to have no dog on dog aggression, dog on cat aggression or dog on person aggression).  And this time I mean it.  Congratulations.  You have made a convert.  Only this time in the wrong direction.

Are the laws against tethering the same as they are in CA, which is that it's OK to tether but not longer than 3 hours?   Because I can certainly understand  tethering a dog outside if he likes being outside with you but there isn't a fence - and most people don't fence the front yard. Is it possible that the owner was with the dog and went inside to get a drink, get something to eat, use the bathroom, etc. and assumed the dog would  be perfectly safe for a few minutes?  How is this different from tethering a dog outside a grocery store or coffee shop, which many people do?

Joyce

Wow....I think we all need to lighten up on kelliope a bit, because the arguements are becoming overly hypothetical and contradictory.

Are we now saying that since a dog is a predator, and there is nothing wrong with certain dogs having a high prey drive, and since small dogs can be likened to prey, then it is ok for a dog to be dog-aggressive and potentially kill another dog? Are you saying that dog aggressiveness is ok because a dog is a predator? Due to the history of certain breeds (pitties, bull terriers, etc) as fighting breeds, should we "excuse" dog aggression from them just as you are suggesting we  "excuse" prey-aggression from a greyhound or coonhound?

 I'm very confused as to the arguement the normally anti-BSL people are providing!  Because it sounds like you are all advocating the above....maybe I missed something along the way, but that's what it sounds like.

Look, I'm not trying to be mean but according to kelliope I shouldn't have a high prey hunting dog like Eko since I live in the suburbs. Yes, I will stand up and argue against that view.

"Excuse" is a loaded word. I think we should understand that some dogs will have the potential to be dog aggressive, and some dogs have a high prey drive. People who own such dogs have a responsibility to keep their dogs under control. There is no "excusing" involved.

If we exclude dogs with high prey drives from pet homes, that is going to be a long list of breeds. No, I don't think dogs who don't get along with others, or who have high prey drives, are the dogs for everyone. I absolutely do not think irresponsible jerks should be owning them - like the folk Bonita described.

If we came down hard on owners who allow their dogs to roam, we'd go a long way to preventing tragic attacks. Irresponsible people need incentives to either contain their dogs or own dogs with less drive. Don't punish a breed or responsible owners. Punish people who act irresponsibly!  And give the punishment teeth.

Dog_ma

Look, I'm not trying to be mean but according to kelliope I shouldn't have a high prey hunting dog like Eko since I live in the suburbs.

IF it or Eko got loose and sought out the neighbors dog or cat and attacked it?  Damn right.  IF you condition, socialize and train your dog not to kill other dogs or cats, then I have no problem with it. 

whtsthfrequency

Wow....I think we all need to lighten up on kelliope a bit, because the arguements are becoming overly hypothetical and contradictory.

Are we now saying that since a dog is a predator, and there is nothing wrong with certain dogs having a high prey drive, and since small dogs can be likened to prey, then it is ok for a dog to be dog-aggressive and potentially kill another dog? Are you saying that dog aggressiveness is ok because a dog is a predator? Due to the history of certain breeds (pitties, bull terriers, etc) as fighting breeds, should we "excuse" dog aggression from them just as you are suggesting we  "excuse" prey-aggression from a greyhound or coonhound?

 I'm very confused as to the arguement the normally anti-BSL people are providing!  Because it sounds like you are all advocating the above....maybe I missed something along the way, but that's what it sounds like.

Thank you. 

 As to some other points:

 What kind of dogs kills chickens? Again if left alone unsupervised you might be surprised at how much fun your furry little friend could have with a bunch of hens. And cats? What breeds will chase and harm a cat?

 I have never once had any of my dogs (past or present) attacked by a bully breed. I have had them attacked by other loose dogs. If we are going to ban any dog with dog aggression then does that include all the ones that instigate mischief at dog parks and other such places? The ones that give too much eye contact and induce a fight, the ones that play to hard and induce a fight. Just because one dog has the personality and wherewithal to finish the fight does not always mean that he started it. Where do we draw the line with the aggression? Do we kill the sheltie that always growls at my dogs in training class?  Or are we just killing the bigger dogs that show aggression to other dogs? Or maybe we are just killing the bully breeds that show aggression to other dogs?