20 People, Gunshot End Pit Bull Attack

kelliope

Dog_ma

Look, I'm not trying to be mean but according to kelliope I shouldn't have a high prey hunting dog like Eko since I live in the suburbs.

IF it or Eko got loose and sought out the neighbors dog or cat and attacked it?  Damn right.  IF you condition, socialize and train your dog not to kill other dogs or cats, then I have no problem with it. 

 

Sigh.

 Sigh - right back at you.

Let's try to use a little common sense here.  Obviously a 2 lb. chi shouldn't be at the dog park (large dog park) with a bunch of large dogs and overgrown puppies.  (well now I see you've removed the part about the Chi at the park)

You know, I have had dogs my entire 40 years.  Shown and bred St. Bernards at one time.  Then went on to animal rescue.  Now I simply have my own two resuce dogs - dogs that weren't my first choice in breed, but were in desperate need of a loving home. 

I am not an idiot about dogs and I am well aware of what can be trained into and out of a dog.  Some dogs have an inappropriatly high "prey drive".  Those dogs are not well suited for living in close conditions with others who have pets (dogs, cats, etc.)  that they love.  Most suburbs don't have loose chickens running around, but they do have cats and other dogs.

As I said before, society doesn't readily agree that people living in the suburbs should have true predators.  It's why we aren't allowed to keep pet lions or bears.  Dogs are supposed to be our companions - not predators intent on killing anything smaller than themselves.

How many of us on here are constantly sniping about people who let their dog pull on the leash or any number of other "normal" dog things that everyone believes should be trained away.  Isn't it fairly "normal" behavior for some dogs to rip the throat out of anyone who crosses into their territory - yet that behavior is not usually tolerated well.  Normally we tolerate barking or threatening but not the all out rip your throat out "normal" behavior.  Why can't we have dogs that don't run out the front door and seek out things to kill - like the neighbors dog or cat?   

I stand by my belief that anyone with a dog aggressive dog, or for that matter a dog that would seek out and kill a cat if it got loose, doesn't deserve to have that dog.  It is not fair to the rest of us sharing the community.  Yes dogs should be contained and under the owners control.  But face the real reality.  Dogs get loose.  It happens every day - right along with the tragedies.  It's time we realize that dogs getting loose is inevitable, despite the constant attempts to contain them.  But if they were to get loose they should not be so much of a threat that they would seek out and kill a neighbors pet. 

I stand by my belief that anyone with a dog aggressive dog, or for that matter a dog that would seek out and kill a cat if it got loose, doesn't deserve to have that dog. It is not fair to the rest of us sharing the community.

Er....well as the adopter of a dog/fear-aggressive dog.....I think I will let this statement be. Dogs do not inevitabley get loose like caterpillars inevitabley turn into butterflies. Dogs do not get loose if you take appropriate measures to contain them and stick by that. I never let Ginny off leash. I always keep my doors locked. Would she actually kill another dog? I doubt it. But she could probably bite or hurt them. So I don't risk it. I train her, I countercondition her, and I keep her contained and under control at all times. I think you are painting with a bit of a broad brush....I understand your sentiment, but remember that there are certainly exceptions for people who are willing to devote the time and energy towards dogs with behavioral issues (because after all, unwarranted aggression in any form is a behavior problem).

 Edited to add: I do believe that human aggression is another category alltogether. But then again, within that very serious category, there are distinctions. There are differences between a dog who will bite/attack a person wearing a hat, tall men, people wearing big coats, whatever the object of their fear is (this type of aggression can ultimately be managed) and a dog who is simply single-mindedly human-aggressive in every sense of the word, would kill a child if given half a chance, and should be destroyed.

 Simply put, dogs are not aggressive for the same reasons, and can not all be labeled as fit to be humanely euthanaized. Some aggressions are manageable (high prey drive, fear aggression, even dominance aggression) and some are not (unchangeable/unmanageable human aggression, for example).

Dog_ma

If we exclude dogs with high prey drives from pet homes, that is going to be a long list of breeds. No, I don't think dogs who don't get along with others, or who have high prey drives, are the dogs for everyone. I absolutely do not think irresponsible jerks should be owning them - like the folk Bonita described.

If we came down hard on owners who allow their dogs to roam, we'd go a long way to preventing tragic attacks. Irresponsible people need incentives to either contain their dogs or own dogs with less drive. Don't punish a breed or responsible owners. Punish people who act irresponsibly!  And give the punishment teeth.

Dog_ma I agree with your statement about irresponsible people more than I can say.  Some folks do not need to breed, own dogs or have kids.  

I rescued a lab from the local kill shelter. My reasons were not truly alturistic, I had an older Ridgeback girl and a high energy  RR pup who was simply too much for her. My thinking was a rescue dog could play harder with him sparing the old girl the jolts and pounding that is inevitable in Ridgeback Play.  We grew to love the lab dearly even though she came with more baggage than Paris Hilton. Frisco while loving and sweet was a menace with small dogs.  We had to be vigilant to protect them from her.  She had such a rough start I could never persuade myself to get rid of her.

The Reader's Digest version is she was bought by a young married couple, they paid $50.00 for her from a show breeder.  Shortly after getting her they banned her outside since she shedded a good bit. When they had a fight the husband did the "civilized"  thing and kicked the snot out of the dog who would try to insert her self between the fighting couple. The wife remembered this detail about her fondly.  "she seemed to try to protect me" she explained whe I tracked them down to figure out why the dog was so troubled. " She was always following me around, trying to sit in my lap even when she got too big. She was a real sweetie pie that dog"  When Hubby drank beer with his biker buddies they enjoyed putting peanut butter in her mouth to  watch her struggle , they had a lot of "games" like that. She was terrified of Thunderstorms and we have humdingers here in the deep south. Big Rolling cracks of Thunder following arcs of lightening that illuminates the night skies. Frisco was made to stay out side in these storms, no dog house but she could get under the trailer if she didn't mind sharing the space with varmits.  The straw that broke thier back was her trash bin raiding. " Darn dog wouldn't hunt when they left her for long weekends for her own food, what a poor hunting dog she was !"  instead Frisco would raid local trash cans and the neighbors got angry. So they dumped her at the kill shelter. 6 months old and in the middle of another storm.  I had gone to donate supplies to the shelter and the thought of a Nanny dog had been in my head for some time. So when looking at the inhabitants I chose a young hound , pretty and short coated I felt this dog would be easy to  integrate into the family. Frisco chose me. She knew her days were up and would not allow me to walk past her without making a connection. I really did not want a lab. They are as common as tree rats in the South.  I'd had a Lab as a kid,  and I knew Bob had them in an earlier marrige. As I was getting ready to sign my name to the hound's adoption papers she let out a long mournful howl and it ended with MOMMMAAAA I kid you not. I couldn't do it. The hound had only come in the day before so he had more time to be adopted, Frisco's time was up that day. Frisco joined the pack. She was terrified of everything, motorcycles, baseball hats, the smell of beer, men , horses, cows, being leashed, ...the list seemed endless. I decided if I was to help her I needed to speak with her former owners.  They were not hard to find. It is a small community compared to most. I stopped by thier trailer and we chatted about everything I have mentioned so far. The kicker was they seemed happy I had gotten her once they knew I wasn't asking them to take her back. Then with an arm around each other said , " We was sorry to get rid of her, but she was as sorry excuse for a hunting dog. Even though we paid good money for her she just wasn't much. Except trouble, she was a lot of trouble.  We decided to put off a dog for a while and we are gonna have a kid instead. They aren't that much trouble...."

 

We do not even have Licenses in our county. you rarely see dogs with collars and rabies tags in the front yards of many homes. Dogs on chains are normal , dead dogs in the road are a daily sight. The attempts to get a license law passed fails everytime because people don't want the Government in thier business. They don't want to pay to have a dog,  Vet care is spotty for many of them.  As a breeder I would be willing to pay to license my pack and even for the privelage of having any unaltered ones. Growing up in Southern California I was not only used to it but saw the wisdom in it. Coming to Southern Alabama I now see the consequenses of allowing people to be responsible without fear of penalty. Ironnically it is the liberals who want the License law inacted and the conservatives who , with thier NRA stickers and Gun Racks refuse to allow it to pass.  Frisco's Breeder made $50.00 bucks off of her, and never thought of her again, her first family threw her away and chose to bring the next Charlie Manson into the world.  She cost me money from the day I found her to the day she passed away. Nearly 15 years old , adored and content. She had found her pack and knew she was loved.  Frisco would race out of the front door every chance she got , running wildly barking madly and joyously. She encouraged every RR I had to follow her and once in a blue moon one would get out as well. They were not looking for prey just exhaulting life in the run. Frisco was a world class lurecoursing fool. Often used to set timers by the Huntmasters who thought her ability to stick the bunny amazing. Her joyfilled runs would cross several yards and go half way around the block before one of us caught up and she would come to us head down tail wagging and whoowhoooing her excitement and apology.   She came to like men, to tolerate the smell of beer and baseball caps, she never got past her hatred of motorcycles.. 

In our efforts to prevent ARs from ruining our passion for dogs sometimes we go too far. With licensing and laws Frisco would have been better protected. The shelter would not have been so overwhelmed as there would have been monies for expansion and improvement.  There are a lot of other Friscos out there and I could weep for each one. They may look like a bully breed or may be yet another lab but they will never get the break they deserve and need as the law does not exist to make these toads stand up and do the right thing.

Bonita of Bwana

kelliope

Well, I highly doubt your horse, if it was to get out, would seek out and try to kill a neighbor's dog.

Furthermore, I agree that the average person is not capable of handling a dog with a "high prey drive".  Which is why I wonder why so many "high prey drive" dogs are promoted as great family pets.

But I can assure you, we have had virtually all breeds of dogs on our farm - all rescues with problems - and all were able to be trained, conditioned and socialized out of their prey drive.   Our worst case, a cat-killing Great Dane, was cured and completely trustworthy around cats after that - and believe me he was around a ton of cats - many newcomers that at first would run from the dogs.  We never had another problem.

 My dogs currently play with my mom's 7 dogs.  A rottie, a cocker spaniel, a corgi/spaniel cross, a terrier cross, a chinese crested powderpuff, a toy fox terrier and a tibetan terrier.  Not one of these dogs goes after cats, chickens, rabbits or my small dogs.  In additon they are kind and gentle with dogs coming onto the property and with all of our neighbor's dogs.  That is the kind of community I choose to live in and I think most people would enjoy not fearing for their lives or their dogs lives or their cats lives everytime someone's dog is loose or they set foot off their property.

Compare that with the very sad story I had to deal with about a neighbor whose 2 "high prey drive" jack russells dug under their very secure fencing - way under, past the screen they put down to prevent that - and chased the neighbor's 2 elderly cats into the house through the cat door and slaughtered them in their kitchen.  That was a lovely homecoming for the cat owner's.  Yet, here were the dogs - just acting on their "high prey drive".  Boy, I'd sure want to live next to those people.

I cannot stand people that think it's OK for dogs to be dog-aggressive or cat-aggressive.  Especially while living in town with other people and their pets.  We just don't need that kind of behavior/breeding whatever.  It is not OK and that is what I mean by a ticking time bomb.

If you want to nit-pick what I am saying here - go ahead - I know where I stand and I stand by my beliefs.

 

This was my first post on the thread.  Please point out exactly where I said that anything that happened in this awful situation was "OK." 

 

Admin note..

I realise this is a topic people feel very passionately about, but there is NO reason for the sniping and sarcasm.  Be civil or don't post.  

Thank you. 

kelliope

As I said before, society doesn't readily agree that people living in the suburbs should have true predators.  It's why we aren't allowed to keep pet lions or bears.  Dogs are supposed to be our companions - not predators intent on killing anything smaller than themselves.

 

I don't think just because a dog has the potential to injure or kill another animal, that they are out hunting them, such as a lion or bear. That is not a comparison that can even be used, not in my book anyway.  

Scariest thing to me, is when someone believes in no way shape or form are their dogs capable of injuring or killing another animal. That's when you hear those horror stories of dogs that are left home together, without being crated or separated in some way, and the owners come home to one or more of the dogs badly injured or killed. Sure, there are many dogs that can safely be left together, but there are an awful lot of good dogs, that as long as they are managed properly are not a problem. I have 4 dogs and 3 cats and 1 rabbit. In no way would I leave all of them in the house, if I was not there. I could however, at least with another bunny that we had and a couple of different dogs than we have now, let the rabbit loose with the dogs and cats, when I would be supervising. Our little bunny actually ruled the roost. That is because I was managing the situation. However, in no way would I have left the rabbit loose when not watching or not at home. Two of our dogs, that we have now, I crate when we are not home but I don't consider them killer dogs. It's just that too many animals in close quarters, with no one managing the situation, and they get excited and over stimulated....well, there is the potential for problems. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

OMG.  I have repeatedly stated over and over that I am refering to the type of aggression where a dog IF it got loose WOULD SEEK OUT AND TRY TO KILL A NEIGHBORING DOG as happened in the story here.  Loose dogs happen.  Obviously.  Every day.  To have a dog so aggressive that it would seek out and kill a neighbors dog in its own yard is irresponsible and reprehensible. 

Then everyone started arguing with me about prey drive.  Well if that's what you consider prey drive than no it's not acceptable.  Until people realize that we have more of a problem than just loose dogs - we have a serious problem with aggressive dogs - then the problem will continue.  And eventually we will be left with no choice other than BSL since people seem to believe it's OK to have dog that if it got loose would seek out and kill another dog.

 As I said, I have worked with rescue.  I am familiar with dogs that are dog aggressive.  Depending on the level of aggressiveness the dogs were either worked with a behaviorist until it could be worked out, or  not accepted or euthanized.  There are too many good, happy, well-adjusted dogs being euthanized every single day.   I know when a dog can be worked with or is just always going to be a real ticking time bomb.  And someone having a ticking time bomb (A DOG THAT WILL SEEK OUT AND TRY TO KILL OTHER DOGS) is really not acceptable.

Unless you think it's OK to have a dog that will seek out and kill a neighbors dog if your dog gets loose, why are you arguing with me?

 

nymaureen

I don't think just because a dog has the potential to injure or kill another animal, that they are out hunting them, such as a lion or bear. That is not a comparison that can even be used, not in my book anyway.

Really?  Neither do I.  But if you read Dog ma's post it appears she thinks dogs are major predators.

all dogs are predators.

 

kelliope

Unless you think it's OK to have a dog that will seek out and kill a neighbors dog if your dog gets loose, why are you arguing with me?

You'd know that it sought a dog out, how exactly? You'd know that the dog or cat, dead or injured, did not instigate the encounter...how?

ETA: I have had my large dogs sought out and assaulted by small breeds before....the small breed dogs then should be living away from humans...even tho they were bred to live WITH humans?

rwbeagles

kelliope

Unless you think it's OK to have a dog that will seek out and kill a neighbors dog if your dog gets loose, why are you arguing with me?

You'd know that it sought a dog out, how exactly? You'd know that the dog or cat, dead or injured, did not instigate the encounter...how?

ETA: I have had my large dogs sought out and assaulted by small breeds before....the small breed dogs then should be living away from humans...even tho they were bred to live WITH humans?

Umm, because the little dog was tied on it's own front porch.

Seriously, I can't believe people are arguing that it's OK to have a dog that would seek out and try to kill a neighboring dog IF it got loose.  That is so ridiculous. 

I have printed out this entire post to show people who are on the fence about BSL so they know how dog owners think.

And as far as my own family goes.  After what they have seen these very dogs they love go through they are themselves nearly in favor of BSL.  Me, I wasn't - until I was on this thread.

And if the little dogs that assaulted your big dogs had the potential to kill your dog - you betcha. I have zero tolerance for dogs that try to kill other dogs.

Hey you guys continue with your discussion about how its perfectly OK to own a dog that tries to kill other dogs.  I'm out.

kelliope

I have printed out this entire post to show people who are on the fence about BSL so they know how dog owners think.

 

Congratulations. You've actually made me angry. Go ahead, sell out millions of innocent dogs with BSL, which won't solve the problem you have, because people disagree with you. The dogs of the world will thank you.

I have said, repeatedly, that owners of dog aggressive or prey driven dogs have a responsibility to keep their dogs under control. Most of them, in fact, do. FTR, dog aggression and prey aggression are not one and the same. It is not rocket science to keep a dog contained.

Kelliope, I can't help but think you misunderstand dog aggression AND the nature of dogs in general. Dogs do not head put of the house with an agenda. Instincts happen. I think dog aggression is a serious thing. I don't think dog aggressive dogs deserve automatic death sentences. I think prey drive has to be respected, and taken seriously. I don't think high prey drive dogs should all be gassed either.

Someday, I hope you recognize the scope of your arguments. You are basically arguing against dog ownership at all.  

 

 

Would someone please point our where anyone said that this attack or attacks like it are okay? Please show me where I suggested that I agreed and condoned any dog attacking another? My assumption is that you have a very small dog. It is most likely your baby and because it is small it is easy to control so there is no need to understand dog behaviour or dog launguage. Not one person on this thread has stated that the attack was okay, that they were in agreement with it, that we should just accept it as a normal thing. You are accusing many of something that just has not happened.

As a human being I have the potentiol to commit murder, to commit robbery, to commit all sorts of henious crimes. All humans do. That does not mean the majority of us do these acts. All dogs have the potentiol to get caught up in some type of prey drive activity. It is their human's responsibility to counter this. Anyone IMO who promotes BLS cannot be a dog lover. They may love their dog very much but again IMO a dog lover is someone who loves dogs and wants to understand them, all dogs. BLS supporters are not in that category.

 I am done arguing with you, some people will just do that which they will do, based off emotions with no thought behind the descision. Go ahead and stand for BLS. It will start with pit bulls. It will move to this: My fervant wish for you is that you will one day come to love one of the below listed breeds and thus know and understand the frustration felt by responsible owners who's beloved pet is at risk because people made an emotional response to an incident, caused by a fool who should never own any dog that resulted in countless good dogs being PTS.

SEVENTY FIVE - banned or restricted breeds  .....................

1.    AIREDALE TERRIER
2.    AKBASH
3.    AKITA
4.    ALAPAHA BLUE BLOOD BULLDOG
5.    ALASKAN MALAMUTE
6.    ALSATIAN SHEPHERD
7.   AMERICAN BULLDOG
8.    AMERICAN HUSKY
9.    AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER
10.  AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER
11.  AMERICAN WOLFDOG
12.  ANATOLIAN SHEPHERD
13.  ARIKARA DOG
14.  AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG
15.  AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD
16.  BELGIAN MALINOIS
17.  BELGIAN SHEEPDOG
18.  BELGIAN TURVUREN
19.  BLUE HEELER
20.  BOERBUL
21.  BORZOI
22.  BOSTON TERRIER
23.  BOUVIER DES FLANDRES
24.  BOXER
25.  BULLDOG
26.  BULL TERRIER
27.  BULL MASTIFF
28.  CANE CORSO
29.  CATAHOULA LEOPARD DOG
30.  CAUCASIAN SHEPHERD
31.  CHINESE SHAR PEI
32.  CHOW-CHOW
33.  COLORADO DOG
34.  DOBERMAN PINSCHER
35.  DOGO DE ARGENTINO
36.  DOGUE DE BORDEAUX
37.   ENGLISH MASTIFFS
38.   ENGLISH SPRINGER SPANIEL
39.  ESKIMO DOG
40.  ESTRELA MOUNTAIN DOG
41.   FILA BRASILIERO
42.  FOX TERRIER
43.  FRENCH BULLDOG
44.  GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG
45.  GOLDEN RETRIEVER
46.  GREENLAND HUSKY
47.  GREAT DANE
48.  GREAT PYRANEES
49.  ITALIAN MASTIFF
50.  KANGAL DOG
51.  KEESHOND
52.  KOMONDOR
53.  KOTEZEBUE HUSKY
54.  KUVAZ
55.  LABRADOR RETRIEVER
56.  LEONBERGER
57.  MASTIFF
58.  NEOPOLITAN MASTIFF
59.  NEWFOUNDLAND
60.  OTTERHOUND
61.  PRESA DE CANARIO
62.  PRESA DE MALLORQUIN
63.  PUG
64.  ROTTWEILER
65.  SAARLOOS WOLFHOND
66.  SAINT BERNARD
67.  SAMOYED
68.  SCOTTISH DEERHOUND
69.  SIBERIAN HUSKY
70.  SPANISH MASTIFF
71.  STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER
72.  TIMBER SHEPHERD
73.  TOSA INU
74.  TUNDRA SHEPHERD
75.  WOLF SPITZ

And last but not least if you are going to support BLS here are a few stories so that you will know what you are supporting : http://www.dogslife.com.au/dogs_life_articles?cid=9446&pid=146514

 

"In a horrific case, a 36-year-old German dog trainer and her boyfriend were forced to move into a one-room apartment with no hot water so they could keep their Pit Bull and two crossbreed dogs. She has been spat on when she walks the dogs, people have thrown rocks at them and children have kicked the dogs from behind. When she asked the police for help, she was told they had to protect people from her dogs!"

"

Such appalling incidents are not just reserved for overseas. Many Australian dog owners have also had their lives destroyed and their beloved friends put down.

 

In August 2003, due to lack of funds to abide by the restrictions in Queensland, Brigit and her husband Shane were forced to move to NSW with their Pit Bull, Tyson, who was identified as a restricted breed through a security door! Shane had to travel to Brisbane every day for work and Brigit fell into depression and had to quit her job.

 

In a hugely publicised case in Brisbane, the Middleton family was told their pet Ollie, who had never hurt anyone, would be seized by the Logan council on the suspicion he was a Pit Bull, despite two independent and professionally qualified vets ruling this out. Logan councillor Sandmann apparently told the family: "Veterinarians are good at looking after animals, not identifying them." Interestingly, another family’s dog had been attacked twice by a Cattle Dog without provocation, but was told by the same council there was nothing they could do.

 

In another appalling case, a woman had her nine-year-old Pit Bull Kane taken from her home while she was at work by Animal Control Officers. She frantically searched for him all night and finally, three days later, was told by an Animal Welfare Officer that the council had seized Kane. She was told she could appeal but this would take four or five months and she had to pay $75 per week to keep Kane at the impound, and she wasn’t allowed to see him. Because she couldn’t afford it and because she didn’t want to put her pet through the stress of being impounded for such a long time, Kane was put down by the council. After they destroyed the dog, the council sent her a letter telling her she had to renew Kane’s registration!

 

After a long battle with authorities, Jahni, an Australian living in America with her husband and son, had to make the devastating and heartbreaking decision to have her two beloved Pitt Bulls put down. This was due to the fact that the family couldn’t take them home, although 17-month-old Dback and five-year-old Cece had never attacked anyone. The family is still distressed at the loss. Jahni says her family will never forget or forgive the decision they were forced to make"

 

I will stand by my conviction that dogs are ANIMALS and ALL dogs have the potential to kill.  ALL DOGS.  Their teeth and jaws are designed for just that.  I have seen dachsunds attack and attempt to kill other dogs; I have had seen chihuahuas attack each other with what appears to be intent to kill- serious injuries occured, and it may have even led to death if people hadn't been there to referee.

You may want to check your posts and make sure you're expressing an OPINION and NOT a fact. 

 I DO NOT AGREE WITH BREEDING FIGHTING DOGS.  I cannot express that enough.

There are genetic predispositions that make some dogs MORE LIKELY to express this behavior, and I do agree that perhaps those dogs shouldn't be in the hands of just anybody.  So, how do we keep them OUT of those people's hands:

Let's get to the ROOT of this problem, which is BYB. As long as people are allowed to breed mercilessly and freely, we may never see the last of this problem.

I know I'm touching on a hot button issue for a lot of us, but this exact story is why I support mandatory spay/neuter with exceptions made for registered, responsible breeders.

There are plenty of pit bulls and their cousins around with perfectly stable temperments who wouldn't commit such a horrible attack.  Sadly, these are the dogs who are handled by the people (me) who are responsible enough NEVER to let their dogs out of their sight, and thus, can never proved in the situation.

Would my dog kill another dog?  I don't know.  If attacked, he will fight back.  Would he fight to the death?  I'm not sure.  I'm really not. And I'm GLAD I don't know the answer to that question.

 

BSL is NOT the answer.  Look at the rehab of Michael Vick's dogs....   SPAY/NEUTER is the answer.  Keep the dogs out of the hands of people who think it's "ok" or even funny that their dogs are insanely aggressive.