What Should Be Done About Pit Bull Owners?

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ORIGINAL: miranadobe

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Regarding the cost of dog bites to the insurance companies, here are the latest available statistics.
wrong, your stats are out of date. You don't provide the source of your quotes, but specifically referencing the Insurance Information Institute in those quotes, here's the latest stats from that same institute, posted just this month:
[linkhttp://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/dogbite/]http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/dogbite/[/link] It doesn't properly label the age of all the data quoted in article - it's more editorial than anything. But it is more up to date than your cited quotes.


And it points to the fact that the insurance companies are now paying out much more per claim ( about $5,000 more) , and more total dollars than they did in the data that I first posted. So your point is????/

My point was simply that you were not providing "the most up to date statistics" - even from your own source.  And, careful, you chose to omit that it also says "the number of claims paid by insurers fell from approximately 20,800 in 2002 to 15,000 in 2005 -- a decrease of 28 percent."  The editorial piece stands for what it is but I am not the one trying to use insurance co stats as a source of argument pro/con anti-BSL, because, I will repeat, that is a weak tool in the pro-BSL campaign.

and as for:

What is the source of this data?

, see post 29 in this thread: [linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=426492&mpage=2&key=񨎛]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=426492&mpage=2&key=񨎛[/link]
[8|] 

According to the Insurance Information Institute, dog bites accounted for about one-quarter of all claims on homeowner's insurance, costing more than $321 million in 2003. In 2002, the latest year for which numbers are available, the average claim for a dog bite was $16,600.

Dog attacks account for one-third of all liability claims on homeowners' insurance policies. According to the Western Insurance Information Service, the insurance industry paid out more than $1 billion in dog-bite claims in 1998 alone.

 
That's great news. From the information you posted dog-bite renumeration decreased by two thirds between 1998 and 2003 and the number of claims decreased by over eight percent. So....we have fewer biting dogs and they are costing less money when they do bite.
 
Get rid of pibbles and something else will take their place, maybe a breed much more likely to be aggressive to humans. In my experience a poorly bred, mishandled Malinois is far more likely to bite a human than a mishandled, poorly bred pibble.
 
We need to concern ourselves with the idea that some people shouldn't own ANY dog and that almost all dogs should be speutered.

I thought my fellow pibble fans would like this one

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

quote:

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

quote:

Regarding the cost of dog bites to the insurance companies, here are the latest available statistics.
wrong, your stats are out of date. You don't provide the source of your quotes, but specifically referencing the Insurance Information Institute in those quotes, here's the latest stats from that same institute, posted just this month:
[linkhttp://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/dogbite/]http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/dogbite/[/link] It doesn't properly label the age of all the data quoted in article - it's more editorial than anything. But it is more up to date than your cited quotes.


And it points to the fact that the insurance companies are now paying out much more per claim ( about $5,000 more) , and more total dollars than they did in the data that I first posted. So your point is????/

My point was simply that you were not providing "the most up to date statistics" - even from your own source.  And, careful, you chose to omit that it also says "the number of claims paid by insurers fell from approximately 20,800 in 2002 to 15,000 in 2005 -- a decrease of 28 percent."

Point taken, and after I finish this post, I am going to smash my head into a wall for 5 minutes as self puishment for making a mistake in posting what I thought was the latest data, as the latest data.  Then I will give myself time out for at least an hour!!!!!!   Oh the pain, oh  the pain!!!![]


Unfortunately, you are also incorrect, since the total dollar amount of the yearly claims in the link you posted has in fact gone up from the earlier one that I posted. from 2002's  $321 Million to $351 Million in 2006. 

This still shows that the cost to insurance  companies for paying for dog biting incidents, amd hence their reluctance to cover ceratin  breeds,  which is the point of this discussion, is enourmous.  That is what we were discussing, I believe.  

[linkhttp://dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/Times.htm]http://dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/Times.htm[/link]
[linkhttp://www.worldmagblog.com/blog/archives/001449.html]http://www.worldmagblog.com/blog/archives/001449.html[/link]
http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/insurance.htm

This is slightly off topic but not really. I wondered about it the other day when I was talking about how many dogs are reported as pit bulls when they're not. Of course I was ignored... [] That's ok.

But Bob? I don't know what kind of dog that is in your signature, but I'll bet MANY people would look at it and call it a Pit Bull. Is it? Because I don't know, either.  I admit I'm not good at recognizing them at all.
Now, back to the insurance debate. [sm=backtotopic.gif]

What do YOU think should be done about Pit Bull owners?

And don't hurt yourself, Bob. [sm=banghead002.gif]  []

Unfortunately, you are also incorrect, since the total dollar amount of the yearly claims

 
The quote I posted was literally cut-and-paste from the article and is not about total dollar amount, it is about the number of paid claims.  But, Bob, let's not hurt your head over this - especially with the wall!![]  Our discussion might seem like a back and forth tit-for-tat to lurkers and we both know that isn't the case.  This is about seeing the perspective from within the argument rather than just swallowing the magic BSL pill whole. 
 
Personally, I think dog_ma's comment about the management of the breed within shelter environments (how they are adopted out) is a very valid avenue to work toward narrowing problems.  It's universal to all dogs, non-breed specific, but clearly we can agree there is an overpopulation of pits who rot away in shelters, are foisted on uneducated owners to clear space for another dog knocking on the shelter doors, or are pricked with the needle and waiting for the cremation truck.  That doesn't in any way discount the hundreds and hundreds of successful pit adoptions to wonderfully responsible owners.  We are looking at the problem side only.  So, I think education at the shelter level is important.  I can still walk into a shelter environment and hear employees and volunteers spout fallacies about the breed.  Where else does a potential adoptor unfamiliar with the breed get their "education"?
 
The media.  I'm not sure how to control that sucker.  The same source of Paris Hilton and Lindsey Lohan updates which receive more hours/weeks/YEARS of continued coverage than Hurricane Katrina just two months after the event.  Experts say we're consumers of the hype that is celebrity gossip, etc....they give us what we "want".  By the same explanation, the stories of pit bull bites would be proffered because that's what this current society "wants".
 
Maybe some do - I know PETA does.  The folks who want to gain ammunition against the specific cause of dog bites of any kind want an answer, but they're being spoonfed "pit bulls are the problem" and they quickly swallow.  To me, it's not unlike hunting down the neighborhood rapist and everyone feels safer once *someone* is caught - even if it's the wrong guy.  You aren't any more safe with the wrong answer, than you were before.
 
Anyway, my personal mission on "what should be done about pit bull owners" starts with educating myself.  We have tremendous pit bull advocates here, one of whom I will see on a more regular basis, who speaks at public forums, etc.  I want to learn from her and her dogs.  I want to take that information and have it readily available the next time I hear conversations in the shelters or on the streets that are sharing myths and misinformation.  Engage and motivate and share good data ([]) so that the picture is clear and we can work together toward safer days for every non-contained, untrained, under-managed dog and any other being (human/canine/feline, whatever) who might encounter it.
 
Phew, one day I'll learn to be succinct. Evidently today is not that day. lol!

"And you need statistics to demonstrate that this would produce a population of dogs that is more likely to be dog aggressive and more likely to inflict serious damage when they express that aggression than a snappy ill-tempered cocker? Seriously? "
 
You wanna know how many of my co-workers have been bitten by the snappy ill-tempered cocker vs. the pit bull?  Seriously?  We see about an equal number of both yet in my 2.5 years at this vet (high volume ER and specialty practice), 2 years at another, and 3 years in a busy boarding kennel....not 1 PB bite. Lots of cocker bites that required medical attention. When a pit is angry, sure, they have the potential to cause more damage--they're a bigger dog--but the frequency or incidence is dramatically lower.  Heck, if we're talking about damage potential, why not talk about bigger dogs? 
 
You know, there are 3 huge problems IMO with the BSL and Breed specific recommendations: 
 
1)  The American public cannot even identify a pit bull, neither can a lot of police.  At my mal weight pulls I've been snagged by many a bystander asking what kind of dog was currently pulling.  They were stunned to hear that it was a pit bull and as soon as the dog was done I'd ask the handler to bring the dog over and the dog would try to lick the bystander to death. 
2) Define Pit Bull.  The CDC list uses "pit bull breeds" as their classification and then compares them to individual breeds.  That's pretty flippin misleading, don't ya say?  I've heard all kinds of breeds lumped in with 'pit bull' and that's unfair--ok, let's compare pit bulls to spaniels or hounds or collies (bearded, smooth, border, etc.) if we're going to do this right. 
3) Ok, make it hard for PB owners....they'll move onto something else and wreck that breed.  Not an acceptable alternative I'm afraid.  My breed has the tendancy to be dog aggressive, I don't want 'those people' moving on to *my* breed, I have enough problems.  No thanks, I already have problems getting insurance. 
 
I've run into more nasty labs and shepherds wanting to do me bodily harm than any other large  breed.  Don't even get me started on the little dogs, I'm just happy I'm quick at reading their intentions and getting my hands out of there.  This is NOT a breed problem, this is 100% an owner problem.  Beating them into submission with education is the only way to go.  Call police about at-large dogs of any kind.  Call police about dogs who are otherwise nuisances.  Make it the owner's problem. 

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

This is slightly off topic but not really. I wondered about it the other day when I was talking about how many dogs are reported as pit bulls when they're not. Of course I was ignored... [] That's ok.

But Bob? I don't know what kind of dog that is in your signature, but I'll bet MANY people would look at it and call it a Pit Bull. Is it? Because I don't know, either.  I admit I'm not good at recognizing them at all.
Now, back to the insurance debate. [sm=backtotopic.gif]

What do YOU think should be done about Pit Bull owners?

And don't hurt yourself, Bob. [sm=banghead002.gif]  []

If the dog in my picture looks like a Pit Bull, then probably to that same person, they would think yours was a Bichon...[]  As for the Pit Bull owners, I have seen at least 5 Pit Bull pups enter and disappear from the Condo Complex where I live, in the last year.  They are usually purchased by people that do not have a clue, as to how to raise any kind of dog, much less a Pit Bull.  When speaking to them they usually state that they like the macho image that the breed has, and that is why they bought it.  It's like the driver that just got their drivers licence, going out and buying a Corvette or a souped up Mustang.

Once the dog is about 6-9 months old, ignored, untrained, and starting to be a real problem to take care of, it winds up being brought to one of the local animal shelters, that already have an overpopulation of this breed. The ones that aren't brought to the shelters, are usually left by the roadside and hopefully they will be picked up by AC or a someone else, and they too wind up in the shelter population. Since the shelters have too many PBs already, and nobody wants to adopt a dog with issues, they are usally euthanized. This cycle goes on and on and on. Stupid owners that won't S/N their Pits, people that don't have the common sense of a knat, buying them, sometimes 2 at a time to impress the neighbors with how tough they are. 

That is why BSL is now spreading across the country , because it seems to be the only way to slow this cycle down.  The constant mantra about "training the owners and making the owners responsible", is just worthless in this situation.  These owners don't want training, and wouldn't take part in it if you paid them, unless it was guaranteed to make the dog "tougher". Now add to this scenario, the popularity of dog fighting in the inner cities, and you compound the problem by ten fold. Now you have really nasty dogs like the ones that Michael Vick owns, that are so dangerous, animal control doesn't even want to handle them. 

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

This is slightly off topic but not really. I wondered about it the other day when I was talking about how many dogs are reported as pit bulls when they're not. Of course I was ignored... [] That's ok.

But Bob? I don't know what kind of dog that is in your signature, but I'll bet MANY people would look at it and call it a Pit Bull. Is it? Because I don't know, either.  I admit I'm not good at recognizing them at all.
Now, back to the insurance debate. [sm=backtotopic.gif]

What do YOU think should be done about Pit Bull owners?

And don't hurt yourself, Bob. [sm=banghead002.gif]  []

If the dog in my picture looks like a Pit Bull, then probably to that same person, they would think yours was a Bichon...[]

I wouldn't be so sure.  There are members on here with basenjis and JRTs that have been asked about their "pit bulls."  My mother was sure for a long time that Sally, the dog in my sig, was a rottweiler.

ORIGINAL: Stacita

According to the Insurance Information Institute, dog bites accounted for about one-quarter of all claims on homeowner's insurance, costing more than $321 million in 2003. In 2002, the latest year for which numbers are available, the average claim for a dog bite was $16,600.

Dog attacks account for one-third of all liability claims on homeowners' insurance policies. According to the Western Insurance Information Service, the insurance industry paid out more than $1 billion in dog-bite claims in 1998 alone.

That's great news. From the information you posted dog-bite renumeration decreased by two thirds between 1998 and 2003 and the number of claims decreased by over eight percent. So....we have fewer biting dogs and they are costing less money when they do bite.

Noooo.,These data say nothing about bite rates or costs in the general population, just about bite rates and costs among insured individuals. Insurance companies are processing fewer claims, and paying out less per claim. If I were in the insurance industry I'd be wondering if that is because insurers have dropped policies or refused to cover higher risk individuals.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: FourIsCompany

This is slightly off topic but not really. I wondered about it the other day when I was talking about how many dogs are reported as pit bulls when they're not. Of course I was ignored... [] That's ok.

But Bob? I don't know what kind of dog that is in your signature, but I'll bet MANY people would look at it and call it a Pit Bull. Is it? Because I don't know, either.  I admit I'm not good at recognizing them at all.
Now, back to the insurance debate. [sm=backtotopic.gif]

What do YOU think should be done about Pit Bull owners?

And don't hurt yourself, Bob. [sm=banghead002.gif]  []

If the dog in my picture looks like a Pit Bull, then probably to that same person, they would think yours was a Bichon...[]

I wouldn't be so sure.  There are members on here with basenjis and JRTs that have been asked about their "pit bulls."  My mother was sure for a long time that Sally, the dog in my sig, was a rottweiler.

 
That's the truth! I'm constantly asked if my Boston Terriers are "Toy Pit Bulls". I find that surprising for 2 reasons... 1 being that people actually think there's a "toy" version of a Pit Bull and 2 being that Boston Terriers were a very popular breed and it surprises me that they are constantly mistaken as other breeds. I've even had people ask if my Boston Terriers are the babies of my Rottweiler. Silly people. And sadly, these are the kind of people who support BSL.

Please read my post titled "URGENT MESSAGE! PLEASE READ THIS!"

Its about a DISGUSTING thing Amazon.com is doing!

That is why BSL is now spreading across the country , because it seems to be the only way to slow this cycle down.

 
But Bob, it doesn't WORK. The people who want pit bulls for the wrong reasons will still get them, and the people who actually like the breed and want them for the right reasons, won't. Long-term effects of this? The only pit bulls that exist will be from fighting lines, and unsocialized and neglected to boot because they're not allowed out of their houses.
 
My sister has a pit bull. Sweet as can be. Doesn't have an aggressive, even dog-aggressive, bone in his body. My little labby mix can be on top of him snarling, and he just cowers. Every apartment complex in this area has breed restrictions. At the top of every list is pit bulls. This doesn't stop my sister from getting those apartments. It can't. If she couldn't have gotten an apartment, she'd have either been on the street, or had to give up Jaz. But what it did stop her from doing is taking him anywhere. So poor Jaz's live became living 24/7 in a tiny apartment, with the tiniest little concrete patio, because Sarah was too afraid of getting kicked out to take him anywhere. Sarah and Jaz live with me now. His life is better, and he's not any worse for the wear for that time spent in doggie house-arrest, but he could have been, and that's what breed bans do, they create the very problems they're trying to prevent.
 
There are still pit bulls all over that apartment complex, they're just rarely seen. That is the kind of environment that creates aggressive, killer pit bulls. And you know that. You said that in your post. And yet you still are for banning the breed. It doesn't make ANY sense.
 
BTW, I would not be surprised if Smokey DID have some pitty in her. You got her from a shelter, didn't you? So you never know. []

Frankly. I doubt very much if major National insuance companies are going to base their business practices on what they read in the daily News. Obviously they have claims and mountains of statistics that they share with other insurance companies and calculate a risk factor

 
 
I have to agree with Bob here.  Insurance rates, restrictions, etc are not based on Tv or newspaper stories, but on how much they have to pay out.  That is why I pay so much more for house insurance than my brothers 200 miles inland pay--insurance companies have spent a lot more money on damaged coastal property than on inland property.  Car insurance rates are based on age because insurance records compiled show which ages groups have the most accidents.
 
You are going to have good and bad in every single breed from the smallest chihuahua to the largest mastiffs, etc.  We have had two insurance claims for dog bites, each of our sons was bitten, one on his paper route, riding down the middle of the street, and the other sitting in front of me at a company picnic--vice presidents dog was walking by in front of Randy, someone tossed a chicken bone at him and he turned and nailed my son right in the face.  Both cases, it was a German Shepherd that did the biting. ( I have been bitten once, only skin was broken, and it was an irish Setter that i would not leave alone, according to my mom.)

ORIGINAL: chelsea_b

That is why BSL is now spreading across the country , because it seems to be the only way to slow this cycle down.

But Bob, it doesn't WORK. The people who want pit bulls for the wrong reasons will still get them, and the people who actually like the breed and want them for the right reasons, won't. Long-term effects of this? The only pit bulls that exist will be from fighting lines, and unsocialized and neglected to boot because they're not allowed out of their houses.

My sister has a pit bull. Sweet as can be. Doesn't have an aggressive, even dog-aggressive, bone in his body. My little labby mix can be on top of him snarling, and he just cowers. Every apartment complex in this area has breed restrictions. At the top of every list is pit bulls. This doesn't stop my sister from getting those apartments. It can't. If she couldn't have gotten an apartment, she'd have either been on the street, or had to give up Jaz. But what it did stop her from doing is taking him anywhere. So poor Jaz's live became living 24/7 in a tiny apartment, with the tiniest little concrete patio, because Sarah was too afraid of getting kicked out to take him anywhere. Sarah and Jaz live with me now. His life is better, and he's not any worse for the wear for that time spent in doggie house-arrest, but he could have been, and that's what breed bans do, they create the very problems they're trying to prevent.

There are still pit bulls all over that apartment complex, they're just rarely seen. That is the kind of environment that creates aggressive, killer pit bulls. And you know that. You said that in your post. And yet you still are for banning the breed. It doesn't make ANY sense.

BTW, I would not be surprised if Smokey DID have some pitty in her. You got her from a shelter, didn't you? So you never know. []

I didn't say I was for banning the breed did I?  What I was saying is that people that are pro banning the breed point to the reduction of Pit Bulls where they live, which wasn't possible with any of the other methods that people have suggested. Where bans are in effect, you don't find people selling Pit Bull pups out of a cardboard box at strip malls or in newspaper classified ads  where they are banned, but you do every day in the city  where  I live. Many of these inexpensive Pits are purchased by people that can't afford to keep them or train them and wind up being abandoned or dropped off at shelters after the novelty wears off a few months after they are acquired.

 Smokey is actually part Chihuahua and  Great Dane.  I am surprised you couldn't figure that out...   [&:]