What Should Be Done About Pit Bull Owners?

I have not had much contact with pitties.Where the yard behind us, the yard next to us and the yard behind them meet, there is a utility pole  Our fence connnects to the one next to us, and there is a about a 1 1/2-2" gap between where our fences connect and the yard catty corner.  They had pits and neighbors behind and beside of us--and me to some extrent--were scared of them.  Why?  Because when my dogs went down to that corner--there are grape vines making an arbor and they love to lay under the vines--those pits were at that gap snarling, clawing at the fence and doing their darndest to get at my dogs.  I could go there alone and no problem at all, but if my dogs went alone or with me, those dogs did all they could to get at mine. 
 
The other neighbors of course had a fence right up against that yard and were terrified the dogs would get under the fence (we all have 6 foot wood privacy fences.  The lady behind fosters and sometimes as a dozen foster dogs as well as her own personal cockrs.  She had cement put down in part of the yard and chain link fence put up and actaully had several "dog runs" put there as well.    She would put the fosters inside that area when she let her own dogs out.
 
Well, on day the pits did go under the fence.  She heard the ruckus and went out and the first one was almost under the fence.  I think she had 5 fosters at that time.  Anway, she got them all inside the cement covered fenced area before the 2 pits got in her yard.  They ended up going under the shet wich his about 18' above the ground.  She called AC and when they came out and saw the situation, they wouldn't even attempt to get the dogs.  They stayed in linda's yard all afternoon and when owners got home she had them come and get their dogs.   She then had cement pourd like a sidewalk down that fence so they couldn't dig back under.
 
I never saw this myself, but both Linda behind me and Sue next to me said those people would attach a ham bone or roast to a chain and attach the chain to tree limg.  The meat/bone would be out of the dog's reach without him jumping for it.  They would jump up, grab the meat/bone and swing back and forth.  They were sure the people were working on building the dogs jaws for fighting.  I really don't know.  But i do know Sue reported the situation to the law and those people were out of that house in two days.  At one time there was a puppy there also and i heard it screaming several times--along with snarls, etc from the grown dogs.  I can not see into that yard with lookg thru that gap and i was not about to get my face there, so i don't know if the other dogs attacked it or just scared it.  I stopped hearing it at all, not even puppy bark.  Have no idea what became of it.
 
It was a pit bull that charged out of a yard and tried to get our old golden retriever last winter.  Luckily the dogs owner was in drive way and he got the dog before it got to hubby & Buck--hubby got in front of Buck--and even with owner holding collar it was still lunging and snarling.  All attention was focused on Buck, none on hubby. The guy apologized all over the place and said he didn't know how the dog got out.  We stopped walking our dogs after that--our street is horse shoe shaped with no side streets.  Both ends dead-end into Live Oak and that  dog lived on Live Oak right between the two ends of our street.  If he was out, there was no way he wouldn't see our dogs.---they have since moved.
 
The little 9 year old girl that lived two houses down was attacked by a boxer/pit mix and the dog tried to kill her--according to the cops.  She had bites to face, scalp, arms, side and i think it was just one leg.  Witness said she was just chasing butterflies and went into that yard.  Dog was on a chain that was attached to a rope that was attached to the fence post and porch post.  Was always out there, never any problem, never acted agressive to anyone.  But when Val went into the yard, he raced down the rope and nailed her.  Neighbors got him off her.  He was tkane right then and put down. 
 
My DIL' sister had a pit and she was crazy about it.  I had been under the impression he was a big marshmellow, but have found out different.  He had bitten two kids and before something could be done, they moved out of the county.  He bit her when she either tried to make him come in and he didn't ant, or when she tried to make him go out and he didn't want to.  When he died, pancreitis, her ex got her another pit puppy, but she gave it away, didn't want another pit.
 
Last night on the gambling boat a couple and i were talking about our dogs and i said it was my golden retriever, KayCee's 8th birthday and i was talking about her having had knee surgery, etc and how she didn't like going to the vet.  The lady said her Mom had a mini long haird doxie that is also scared of the vet--and most everything else.  Her Mom was walking the dog and a pit came running up and grabbed it.  The lady held onto the leash as she didn't want her dog carried off and she was actaully pulled off her feet and got her face all scarped and shoulder dislocated.  A passing cop  saw what was going on, stopped and shot  and killed he pit so they could get the doxie out of it's mouth.  The doxie was so badly injured the vet didn't give much hope, but after over 2 weeks in hospital, she was allowed to come home.  She is now terrified to go to the vet, terrified to go on her walk, etc.
 
This could have been any breed of dog that was dog aggressive, but happened to be a pit..  As I posted earlier, both of my sons have been bitten once and each time it was a German Shepherd and each time stitches were required.  I have been bitten once and it was an irish Settter. The skin was not broken, but "dents' were made.  I do not think breed banning is what is needed.  There will always be the "tought guys' who will own and fight dogs, use them to "guard" their drugs, etc.  If evey breed of dog that "might bite" was banned, we would not have a single breed of dog left.  This said,  I am nervous when i see a pit, a shepherd, a rottie, or any large dog running free...

I don't like seeing ANY dog running free. It scares me. Even the little shih-tzu that charges us freaks me out.

Yesterday I was out walking Ella. THANK GOD we JUST made it across the street from out house and was up the street only two houses before I saw a loose GSD marking his/her territory left and right. I saw the dog before the dog saw us and before Ella saw it. THANK GOD. I turned her around real quick and brought her back inside our house. I'd be actually scared for my life and both dogs' lives had a meeting actually occurred.
After I brought Ella back into the house I went back out and started walking down the street. Why? Because I thought I could find the dog and possibly find its owner. I thought maybe the first time when I was out with Ella and saw the GSD that perhaps I was only seeing things.
I saw the dog again and then it dawned on me "What are you doing??? Nobody is even awake in the neighborhood yet and you are out without ANYTHING to protect yourself and if this dog is unfriendly, you're SCREWED." I turned back and went back home after that thought.
A loose dog is not ANYTHING to reckon with. I'm glad I had a thought of fear for a moment. It was enough to turn me back to go home. I guess I just assumed because I love dogs that this dog would be friendly (I've not really encountered an off leash aggressive dog before) and I could find its owners (which I thought I might know where they are located and could get the dog home). What if I would've startled that dog and it would've gotten scared?

Anyway, that was completely off topic, but to Sandra: pit bulls CAN BE dog aggressive. I am pretty sure you already know that, but no, no proper pit bull owner will EVER leave their dog out in a fenced in yard without being supervised or off leash.
My dog got out of my house off leash ONCE. And that was enough for me to make sure THAT MISTAKE NEVER happened again.

My dog got out of my house off leash ONCE. And that was enough for me to make sure THAT MISTAKE NEVER happened again

 
And that, is what separates the responsible owners from the irresponsible ones.  You won't let it happen again.  An irresponsible owner wouldn't think twice about it.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca


Anyway, that was completely off topic, but to Sandra: pit bulls CAN BE dog aggressive. I am pretty sure you already know that, but no, no proper pit bull owner will EVER leave their dog out in a fenced in yard without being supervised or off leash.
My dog got out of my house off leash ONCE. And that was enough for me to make sure THAT MISTAKE NEVER happened again.

And more importantly, Pit Bulls can be very  people aggressive.  There have been many, many instances of a Pit attacking someone's dog, while they are walking down the street, and when the person tries to defend their dog from the attack, they get attacked.  That creates a very dangerous situation when you have a Pit Bull that lives on your block, and gets loose on occasion.

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: chewbecca


Anyway, that was completely off topic, but to Sandra: pit bulls CAN BE dog aggressive. I am pretty sure you already know that, but no, no proper pit bull owner will EVER leave their dog out in a fenced in yard without being supervised or off leash.
My dog got out of my house off leash ONCE. And that was enough for me to make sure THAT MISTAKE NEVER happened again.

And more importantly, Pit Bulls can be very people aggressive. There have been many, many instances of a Pit attacking someone's dog, while they are walking down the street, and when the person tries to defend their dog from the attack, they get attacked. That creates a very dangerous situation when you have a Pit Bull that lives on your block, and gets loose on occasion.

Bob, now I'm not really going to go into pit bulls and their likeliness (or lack there of) of being people aggressive with you. I'm not going to tell you that it's untrue. I am going to say that it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that if these attacks occur, where the pit attacks the person's dog and they try to intervene and protect their dog from the attack, that the pit was intentionally going for the human. I will say that the dog was most likely "in mode/drive" and was focused COMPLETELY on that dog and NOT the human.
But who am I to argue with an incident I didn't witness?

I will say that as from experience and my mistake, that I made sure will NEVER happen again, that my dog went after another and got her before I could get a hold of her.
Now, in doggyWorld, yes, my dog and this other dog had a history. They did. Not to lighten the situation or lessen the severity or crappiness of what happened, but from a dog perspective, they had a history. And this dog had been CRAPPY to mine while my dog took it because I made her sit next to me and because she had always been on leash. This dog had growled,snapped at, barked at, lunged at, and got on her hind legs-all towards my dog. I can imagine that in "dog" a lot of nasty things were said to my dog. BUT ANYWAY, while my dog got this other dog and my dog's equipment failed on me, I had no tools. NONE. I used my bare hands (stupid me) to pry my dog's mouth off that dog.
IN THE HEAT OF IT, I grabbed my dog's mouth off the other dog. Did I get bitten? NOPE. Maybe there was an angel watching over me or maybe the angel watching over the other dog helped me, but I did not get bitten. Nor did my dog show a lick of interest in the owner of the other dog.

Enough of that story, bleh.
But anyway, as many times as an owner of another dog gets bitten by a pit bull going after their dog, I'm sure just as many other breeds have done the same thing.
Because just as likely as it could happen, it's just as unlikely to NOT happen.

 I am always sad when I come across posts such as this one. Partly because all of the wonderful pit bulls out there that will never get a chance at showing how great their breed can be, and partly because I cannot see a solution to the problem.
 
 I will start by stating that I love all bully breeds, I own a Dogo and I am certain that if Dogo's were as popular as Pits are we would see many of these same problems. I hope this breed never becomes popular. For any bully breed or any high drive-working breed it seems to be death to become popular.
 
 opularity leads to everyone wanting one. It leads to cheaper puppies, more of the type in shelters and therefore opens up more and more homes to this type. With that come the casual owners and the irresponsible owners and then the attacks and the BLS. Pit Bulls have a further disadvantage in that they are used for dog fighting and underground and dark sport that is much bigger than most people realize.
 
 It is not the fault of the breed, yet the breed pays the price. Persons wishing to own such a breed (bully, high drive working) should understand the implications of owning one and the responsibility that comes with that ownership. One should always be aware of what YOUR dog could do, if the circumstance were right.
 
 Dogo#%92s as well as pit bulls are bred to be resistant to pain. Observe hunting Dogo#%92s in their native Argentina on a boar, they will not release or stop their attempts to hold the boar down; many times this is with entrails trailing. Their drive is so strong that pain is not an issue when the drive is highly engaged. Pit bulls are also used in boar hunting here in the US for the very same reason. Their tenacity, their grit and their sheer will power once they commit is the reason why they are so effective at this task. Unfortunately when this drive is triggered and not contained and re-channeled into something useful, it tends to be pretty gruesome.
 
 Your bully may be wonderful with kids, he may be wonderful with other dogs, My Hektor is the same, but I think if we are to be responsible owners of these breeds we MUST always have at the back of our minds, “what if?” and we must be diligent in training our dogs, controlling their behavior, making certain they are contained and safe when we are not home and educating others. I sometimes think that bully owners get so caught up in defending their breed that they forget to ask themselves these questions.
 
 

I'm going to trot out my old stat and see if anyone can prove me wrong. The actual highest number of bites come from Labs and Sibes. The former because there so many of that breed and they are often untrained. The latter because they are misunderstood. The actual number of pit bull bites pales in comparison but they get all the bad press including the the beginning of this thread, which assumes there is a "pit bull problem." Then there's someone else who calls the CGC a "mickey mouse test." I know several people who would disagree with that assessment. And it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere. The concentration, as mentioned several times here, should be on owners and how they manage their dogs. But it won't be because it's easier to pick on a dog than pursue a human.

I think they get the press because of the severity of the bites. I don't think they should be banned, but I really wish the dog laws were enforced for all dogs, bigger fines for loose dogs. I don't care if it is the first time someones dog gets loose, hit them with a couple of hundred dollar fine and it might not happen again, if it does, give them a $500. fine. That is for ALL dogs, no matter what the breed is.
 

And more importantly, Pit Bulls can be very people aggressive. There have been many, many instances of a Pit attacking someone's dog, while they are walking down the street, and when the person tries to defend their dog from the attack, they get attacked. That creates a very dangerous situation when you have a Pit Bull that lives on your block, and gets loose on occasion.

A contradiction within itself.  By that assessment of "very people aggressive", then any person who has been bitten while interfering w/a dog attempting to consume/possess any resource (in this case, another dog), would have been bitten by "a very people aggressive" animal.  It's not a true assessment by most standards.

A pit CAN do different damage than a cocker spaniel and those who think otherwise are fooling themselves.  I understand the fear of just the kind of damage/impact we're talking about.  Reasonably you cannot really compare the severity as equally as some might want to.  BUT.  If this was 1972, you would all be talking about my breed.  dgriego's comments that the popularity is what has increased the volume of pits and thus the volume of incidents is pointed.  Perhaps for another thread I'd like to throw out the possibility that in 5-10yrs we're going to see an onslaught of fear-biting "labra-golden-shnauzer-whatever else they mix with-doodles" who have been bred from the poorest stock of the poorest stock of their originating breeds.  (ie, the worst of the worst)  Maybe there will be a "what should be done about the -doodles" conversation.  Maybe not.  But either one (from my perspective)  boils down to understanding the breed/type(s) while maintaining their integrity, reducing litters produced for mass consumption of an injudicious type, and general improvement in PET OWNERSHIP and its inherent responsibility. Maybe people think the last one really is too difficult to turn as a culture.  But if that's the case, then these breed bans will only continue to repeat themselves against breed after breed until we all have left is something medium-sized, beige, with a short coat, long tail, prick ear, and ultimately no breeds whatsoever.  Not the kind of world I want.
 
(Edited: added "type" instead of just "breed.)

"what should be done about the -doodles" conversation.

 
I think if this BSL crap keeps up...this is very possible in the future. People who own dogs that are notoriously friendly think it wont happen. Take italy for example...this is the best link i could find in the limited time i have right now...it's kinda scattered but as you can see there are schipperkes, corgis, border collies, etc on there. how 'bout that?
[linkhttp://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/Locations/Italy/Italy.htm]http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/Locations/Italy/Italy.htm[/link]
 

ORIGINAL: dubilpie

I think they get the press because of the severity of the bites. I don't think they should be banned, but I really wish the dog laws were enforced for all dogs, bigger fines for loose dogs. I don't care if it is the first time someones dog gets loose, hit them with a couple of hundred dollar fine and it might not happen again, if it does, give them a $500. fine. That is for ALL dogs, no matter what the breed is.

 
 I agree dubilpie, it is more about the severity of the attack than which breed of dog. There are far more bites from other breeds than bullys but  some of the most tragic tend to be the bully or high drive breeds, like the 7 year old that was killed this week,and the lady that was killed by the reso's in a couple years ago.Looking at old statistics from 1996-1998 most were HIGH drive dogs or Bullys, with Pits and Rottweilers , Husky's, German Shepards and Wolf Hybrids being on the list. Again a lot of the problem is that the  drive in these breeds is intense, the instinct to commit and not back down, the guardian instinct, the hunting instinct (depending on what breed) so that once there is some sort of trigger and these types do attack a human it tends to be worse than your average dog bite. I am not saying that any one breed is a problem, I am only saying if we own a dog with this type of drive we should always be aware of what it could do if triggered.  
 
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

And more importantly, Pit Bulls can be very people aggressive. There have been many, many instances of a Pit attacking someone's dog, while they are walking down the street, and when the person tries to defend their dog from the attack, they get attacked. That creates a very dangerous situation when you have a Pit Bull that lives on your block, and gets loose on occasion.

A contradiction within itself.  By that assessment of "very people aggressive", then any person who has been bitten while interfering w/a dog attempting to consume/possess any resource (in this case, another dog), would have been bitten by "a very people aggressive" animal.  It's not a true assessment by most standards.

Unless you live in a "make believe world", when your dog is being attacked, and you are trying to save your dog and you get your arm ripped open by the attacking dog, to you that dog is ##@#  "people aggressive" at that moment. Arguing about the exact word that should be used to describe the attacking dog's behavior at that moment is ridiculous.

Unless you live in a "make believe world", when your dog is being attacked, and you are trying to save your dog and you get your arm ripped open by the attacking dog, to you that dog is ##@# "people aggressive" at that moment. Arguing about the exact word that should be used to describe the attacking dog's behavior at that moment is ridiculous.

Gee when my dog was a pup, he got stepped on and scared by a larger dog, when I went to pick him up, he put a nice gash in my nose.  So now he's "people aggressive?" 

Wrong. 

Bob all you're doing is helping to perpetuate the myth that the dogs themselves are bad.  You're not trying to educate, you're trying to, and succeeding in part, in contributing to a tarnished image of a canine companion. 

I've seen human aggressive Golden Retrievers.  I've seen dog aggressive Beagles.  I've seen reactive dogs of almost every type.  Out of the 5 or 6 times I've been bitten, 3 of them were cocker spaniels.  Am I on a campaign to legislate cockers out of existence?  Nope. 

But here you are claiming that reactivity is human aggression.  That's just not so.  Have you ever gotten mad at another driver while you were sitting in traffic?  That's road rage.  It doesn't mean you're an aggressive person all the time.  It doesn't mean you are a violent person.  You just reacted.  It's very similar to getting one's self into the middle of a dog fight.

Keep on believing what you are believing and preaching what you are preaching and soon enough someone will call out your dog's breed or mix as aggressive and then you'll understand why the precedent you choose to support will be the undoing of responsible dog ownership everywhere.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

Unless you live in a "make believe world", when your dog is being attacked, and you are trying to save your dog and you get your arm ripped open by the attacking dog, to you that dog is ##@# "people aggressive" at that moment. Arguing about the exact word that should be used to describe the attacking dog's behavior at that moment is ridiculous.

Gee when my dog was a pup, he got stepped on and scared by a larger dog, when I went to pick him up, he put a nice gash in my nose. So now he's "people aggressive?"

Wrong.

Bob all you're doing is helping to perpetuate the myth that the dogs themselves are bad. You're not trying to educate, you're trying to, and succeeding in part, in contributing to a tarnished image of a canine companion.

I've seen human aggressive Golden Retrievers. I've seen dog aggressive Beagles. I've seen reactive dogs of almost every type. Out of the 5 or 6 times I've been bitten, 3 of them were cocker spaniels. Am I on a campaign to legislate cockers out of existence? Nope.

But here you are claiming that reactivity is human aggression. That's just not so. Have you ever gotten mad at another driver while you were sitting in traffic? That's road rage. It doesn't mean you're an aggressive person all the time. It doesn't mean you are a violent person. You just reacted. It's very similar to getting one's self into the middle of a dog fight.

Keep on believing what you are believing and preaching what you are preaching and soon enough someone will call out your dog's breed or mix as aggressive and then you'll understand why the precedent you choose to support will be the undoing of responsible dog ownership everywhere.

AMEN.

And, honestly, Bob, as a dog lover and someone who is so obviously anti-Michael Vick for fighting pit bulls, how can you say such things about them? How can you, like Ed said, keep perpetuating myths or information that could be true or untrue for ANY breed of dog and pinning it all on ONE breed or, I'm sorry, breed TYPE?

It's ok, just keep hiding behind your fear of pit bulls and you just wait. Just wait until someone hides behind their fear of YOUR dog.
I'm sorry, but it is TRUE.
When I was little it was dobermans. Then it was Rottweilers. In the 50s it was cocker spaniels. GSDs were in there somewhere, too.

Oh no I have human-aggressive dogs because I've been bit while trying to break up fights!!! Except, not.

 Is being bit by a dog ever a pleasant experience? No. No, it sucks in about a million ways, emotionally and physically. But just being bit by a dog does not mean the dog is "human aggressive". A human-aggressive dog is a dog who purposefully goes for humans to bite and maim. In the instances where I've been bit, neither dog even really saw me. They were focused on each other and I just happened to be in the way. Don't throw around that HA tag so lightly. It's very rare in a dog and a very serious thing.  It's just as ridiculous as people labeling dogs with any kind of appropriate canine prey drive as "aggressive" because they will hunt and kill certain classes of living creatures.