Are people who love pitties actually helping BSL spread?

ORIGINAL:  Bobsk8
It is not up to my passengers to avoid walking into a prop and being dismembered, it is up to me to insure that there is no way this can happen.

Which you do primarily by having lots of airport security restrictions and lots of security eople watching the people and your plane.  I can't expect that much help in a public park. 
 

ORIGINAL:  Bobsk8
It is not JQP's responsibilty to adjust to the behavior of an aggressive dog. 

As much as humanly possible JQP should not have to adjust to the behavior of an aggressive dog.  However, not teaching children the fundamentals of how to adjust to an aggressive dog is as silly as not teaching them the fundamentals of avoiding being hit by a car or avoiding a rabid animal.
 
It is my responsibility as an adult to do all I can to teach children to avoid dangerous situations.  Like it or not, as long as we have dogs, they will break leashes, dig under fences, and jump fences even if they have responsible owners. 
 
Badly frightened dogs and dogs in pain can and do react aggressively even if those animals do not normally have behavior issues.  People (adults and children) can and do frighten, hurt, and tease dogs.  Parents that do not teach children the possible consequences of those actions (by the children or by others) are derelict in their parental duties - especially since children often climb fences.  

ORIGINAL:  Bobsk8
So I am starting to realize that many dog owners have no idea how to control their dogs, don't know much about dog behavior, don't bother training their dogs, and sometimes have dogs that are a danger to the general public.  

This is a new realization?  [] 

ORIGINAL:  Bobsk8
If you don't want people to pet your dog, because you know it might bite someone that does that, then I don't think you should have your dog out in a public place like a park  or crowded sidewalk, where it might encounter young children without a muzzle.  

Hmmmmm.  Putting a muzzle or face mask on children - what an interesting idea!  [sm=devil.gif]

ORIGINAL: denise m

IMO there is (or should be) a reasonable expectation of personal safety in public areas. ANY dog in a public setting should not pose a threat, whether it be by temperment, training or owner control. I agree with Bobsk8. It is unreasonable to expect the general public to be constantly concerned as to the potenial risk of dogs in our public space. Call me naive, but if I see a dog in public I assume they pose NO RISK and I, my children and my dog should be able to occupy that same space without fear.

Do you allow your children to assume that strange humans in public pose no risk as well?

Yes, I would hope that any dog that is highly aggressive would muzzled but I would never, ever, in a million years assume it.  You cannot control the actions of other people, only your (and to some extent your childrens') own actions.  Teaching your children that any dog they see in public is safe is just as dangorous as teaching them that any stranger they see out in public is someone that they can trust. 

This does not need to involve terrifying your children, but it is something that IMHO (and this is not just because I am a dog owner-I thought this way before I had dogs) every parent should do.  I still have three scars from being biten (that was nearly 20 years ago) and it took me a long, long time before I could be around a GSD without my blood pressure going up.  I would never, ever forgive myself if my child had to deal with a dog bite because I failed to teach them how to properly behave around dogs.

Dogs are animals are are therefore NEVER 100% predictable.  There is NO SUCH THING as a dog that does not bite.  Refusing to teach a child safety around dogs in a world where they are likely to be around dogs daily is as senseless to me as refusing to teach horse safety to a child that is going to be around a barn all day long. 

Call me naive, but if I see a dog in public I assume they pose NO RISK and I, my children and my dog should be able to occupy that same space without fear.

The term "no risk" and dogs simply doesn't go together - not even with tiny dogs.  Children are at some risk even from family pets, so kids should always be supervised around dogs.
 
As long as you, your children, and your leashed dog all keep their distance from other leashed dogs in public, it is reasonable to assume that things should be fine.  If you expect to never encounter a leashed DA dog, that is not a reasonable expectation.  If you expect to never enounter a leashed dog that doesn't like your dog, that is also not a reasonable expectation.  If you expect all leashed dogs you encounter to be well socialized around children, that is again not a reasonable expectation. 
 
Small children should simply not be in areas with unleashed dogs.  A friendly Great Dane could hurt a child just by wagging his tail.  A big dog could knock a child over trying to lick the child's face.
 
Older children in areas with unleashed dogs need to be mature enough and educated enough to handle dog fight situations.  That includes being able to tell dog play from a dog fight. 

Many times I walk way off the path to avoid the dogs getting too close, because I can see that the other person isn't able to keep their dog out of my dog's space.

so you expect people to keep their dogs out of your dog's personal space, but it is completely acceptable if a child or other person invades my dog's space? and should there be an incident it is completely the fault of me and my dog?

IMO there is (or should be) a reasonable expectation of personal safety in public areas. ANY dog in a public setting should not pose a threat, whether it be by temperment, training or owner control.

I still stand by this. The point being "a reasonable expectation". Of course anything can happen and yes even a friendly dog can unexpectedly cause an injury. I think it is just wrong to have a dog in a public setting if you know that there is a reasonable chance your dog may pose a threat ie dog aggressive, doesn't like kids, fear biter etc. If you are bringing such a dog into public then it is my expectation that you have 100% control. Now if I see a dog in a vacant public park being walked, it may give make me pause, but a crowded public sidewalk - no.

Call me naive, but if I see a dog in public I assume they pose NO RISK and I, my children and my dog should be able to occupy that same space without fear.
[

So yes, if a dog has no history of posing a threat or the dog is under complete control, then I do assume they pose no risk. I would hate for the opposite to be true where I would be suspcious of every dog I see.

PS Hey, I am finally figuring out this quote thing!

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: meilani

As a dog owner, my dogs are my responsibility. If I tell someone that they cannot pet my dog for whatever reason, it's their responsibility to listen to what I say. Does that mean I shouldn't take my dogs out in public because I don't want people to pet them? As a parent, I am responsible for my child and any child under my care. As a parent, I would not allow my child to go up to a strange dog nor pet one unless they ask for permission. I think the problem these days is no one wants to take responsibility for their actions and are too quick to pawn that responsibility onto other people.

If you don't want people to pet your dog, because you know it might bite someone that does that, then I don't think you should have your dog out in a public place like a park  or crowded sidewalk, where it might encounter young children without a muzzle.

 
The reason I don't want people to pet my dogs is because there are times when I am working out by walking my dogs and I don't want to stop my workout or because I'm practicing obedience and want to keep focused on what we're doing. Even then so, my dogs are animals. I cannot 100% guarantee that they will never bite anyone although I do my best and then some to try to prevent that from happening. When I am out in public, my dogs are leashed and are under my control. Because of that, I feel I have the right to take them places and not have to justify to someone why they or their children can't pet my dogs. That kinda reminds me of a conversation I had with someone a while back. I'm waiting in line at Petco and I'm working on Shelby's sit/stay. The lady asks if she can pet my dog. I tell her no because we're practicing obedience. She says "Well if I can't pet her, why do you bring her in public?" so I asked "Is that your husband?" to which she answered "yes" and I said "Can I grope on him?". She was taken aback by that question and said "Excuse me?" and I said "Why bring him out in public if I can't grope on him?" [8D] 
 
As a parent, I have made it my point to teach my child how to behave around dogs. He knows he's to ask permission before petting someones dog. I feel it's extremely foolish to believe that any dog in public should love children and that it's a privilege, not a right, to pet someones dog. Children should learn how to properly behave towards dogs because if they did, I would think dog bites towards children wouldn't be as high.

I tell her no because we're practicing obedience. She says "Well if I can't pet her, why do you bring her in public?" so I asked "Is that your husband?" to which she answered "yes" and I said "Can I grope on him?". She was taken aback by that question and said "Excuse me?" and I said "Why bring him out in public if I can't grope on him?"  

Meilani, I wish every other post on this whole forum was by you.

Should a dog/kid be able to walk down the street without being bothered by a kid/dog?[] Of course. I think we all agree that parents should control their kids and owners should control their dogs.
 This is all about being reasonable and understanding the limits of dogs, kids and people. Some kids have no experience with dogs and some dogs have no experience with kids. I err on the side of caution and function with the belief that a strange kid or strange dog is clueless.  As a parent, it is my responsibility to keep my child from approaching/touching a leashed dog without permission.  As a dog owner it is my job to make sure my dog doesn't approach or frighten anyone and to keep him under my control at all times. If someone else is failing on the parental control front it is my job as his owner to insure that the misbehaving child does not hurt or bother my dog.  NOTE: This isn't about keeping a "bad" kid safe---this is my obligation to my dog to keep him safe. If I had a dog that was NOT tolerant of rough handling, high pitched voices, or sudden movements then I would not allow a toddler/young child to get close to him. Worst case scenario and I hear a child has been bitten I am going to ask where the parents were. I am also going to ask where the dog's owner was, because he should have been right there at the end of the leash overseeing the contact. Yes the parents should also be right there---but kids can be unpredictable and leashing them in public might result in phone calls to youth services[] A kid older than 5 grabs a dog's tail and gets a bite on the arm is IMO a clear case of doggie self-defense. A kid younger than 5 and the owner should have kept the kid far away from the tail area ---because just as we can't expect a 12 week old puppy to know what he shouldn't grab with his mouth, we also can't expect a 3 yr old kid to know what he can't grab with his hands. An older kid (like the one described by Glenmar) does something to my dog and I become the drama queen yelling for his parents and shouting the kid is hurting my dog. [sm=devil.gif] So now the kid knows his parents are alerted, the parents HAVE to have heard me and everyone in earshot knows the kid is being a brat and my dog is behaving himself.  Bottom line: this shouldn't be about kid vs. dog, but if it comes down to that then the dog loses and not just because of species prejudice. A dog should be under control of an adult in ublic at all times. An adult should be using their judgment to keep everyone safe. A kid's judgment????There's a reason 6 year olds don't drive cars and its not because they can't reach the pedals.[] 

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

Many times I walk way off the path to avoid the dogs getting too close, because I can see that the other person isn't able to keep their dog out of my dog's space.

so you expect people to keep their dogs out of your dog's personal space, but it is completely acceptable if a child or other person invades my dog's space? and should there be an incident it is completely the fault of me and my dog?

I  usually don't meet parents  that have their child on a leash and can have the kind of control that I have with my dog.... And yes , if a toddler runs up to your dog, and your dog bites the toddler, it is your fault according to the law. The responsible dog owner is going to assume that very young children will do the wrong thing, and to be ready to deal with it when it happens. By the way, I have never owned a dog that I had to  worry  about it  might  bite  a stranger.  I don't know if it is the kind of dogs that I have had, or the way I raised them or both, but it would make me very nervous to have a dog that had a tendency to bite someone, and I probably would not walk that dog in public places , when they could be avoided. Any doubt about the dog's behavior, and a muzzle would go on the dog during the walks.

Well, this will be as popular as ants at a picnic, but my youngest son WAS on a lead.
 
They make harnesses FOR children and actually, my CPS worker is the one who suggested it.  DS is ADHD.....he was a whirlwind as a little boy and keeping up with him was unreal.  I could NOT sit because this little guy would pull a tv off on his head if I so much as blinked.  I was reported and investigated more times than I can count, because that little guy ALWAYS had cuts, bruises, whatever and he did it to himself.  And within seconds each and every visit, the worker KNEW what the problem was, and it sure wasn't ME.  I had to chain my fridge shut at nite, I had to sleep on the floor at the top of the stairs to at least be able to keep him UPstairs near the bedrooms.  He started climbing out of his crib at about 8 months.  Everything had to be shut up, locked up, put away behind closed and locked doors and he STILL found a way to get into stuff.  There wasn't enough management in the world to keep this kid safe.
 
I know I've told the story of his cow milking morning......I had a chain lock up WAY high on the door where I could barely reach it.  DS pulled his rocking chair over, used his hobby horse stick and got that chain off, and went out the door, down a hill, across a country road, through a barbed wire fence in nothing but his RED superman cape and when I found him (and this was before 6AM) he was under a steer saying "give me milk cow"!  []
 
Despite my best efforts and those of professionals, this kid couldn't be stopped, and he had very little need for sleep.  So, yep, he had a harness and lead when we went out and I sure wasn't ever reported for THAT.  Yes, some people were nasty about it, and today when I see a child in a harness, I stop and COMMEND the parents for keeping their child safe.
 
So yeah, a child CAN be kept on lead and often should be.  It's about keeping the kid safe, and whatever it takes is whatever it takes.  And if a parent doesn't want to be bothered WATCHING their child, or the kid is like my youngest, yep, they belong on a teether.

It's about keeping the kid safe, and whatever it takes is whatever it takes.

Amen!!!  At one point my mom had a two-year-old (me), a one-year-old, and an infant in arms.  This was back before most people had even heard of child harnesses.
 
To get us across a large, busy parking lot (with multiple entrances/exits) and into a building for a doctor's appointment, she had me and my next sister in harnesses with short leashes.  A woman (complete stranger) had the audacity to chew her out for "treating her children like dogs". 
 
Did she expect my mom to grown a third arm??  To let go of a 2-year-old around moving vehicles?  A stroller was out because we had to do stairs inside the building. 
 
You do what you have to do to keep your kids safe!!  My mom didn't say much to the woman because she (my mom) was a shy, wallflower type.  I would have told the "lady" that she had a screw loose - along with some other pertinent comments.  []

DS pulled his rocking chair over, used his hobby horse stick and got that chain off, and went out the door, down a hill, across a country road, through a barbed wire fence in nothing but his RED superman cape and when I found him (and this was before 6AM) he was under a steer saying "give me milk cow"!

[sm=rotfl.gif] I know it wasn't funny at the time, but that is a hilarious visual.
 
[sm=backtotopic.gif]

DH's parents had leashes for some of their kids--there were 8 of them!

My mom held my hand in public as a child.  I cringe when I see a parent in a parking lot letting their toddler frolic ahead--she would have never, ever done that.  If there had been such a place as Petsmart when I was a kid you can bet she would not have let go of my hand the whole time we were in the store.

Sally likes kids pretty well.  She likes them better than adults actually.  Once we were in Petsmart and a four year old girl ran right up t her without warning and threw her arms around her.  At that point I'd onlt had Sally for a few months, and while she seemed good around my friend's kids she had never had a child to that to her.  Thankfully she just licked the child, but I think both me and the child's mother aged about 10 years in 30 seconds. 

From that experience I learned to expect every child to try to come up to her.  My mom's advice was always similar Bob's dad's advice--when I would go for a walk she would tell me to assume that every car on the road was going to hit me.  I have started doing that with kids--and this goes for both dogs, as Jack loves kids and might knock one over out of excitement.  I just assume all kids are going to try to approach my dogs.  If I really, really don't want that interaction to happen (which is rare--only if like it's a bunch of teenage boys that seem to be up to no good), I go the other way.

GLENMAR: I understand what you are talking about completely  I have three ADHD boys. At age 3 MS figured out he could climb to the ceiling if he grabbed one curtain in each hand, ran his feet up the wall onto the windows and then climbed up the window using the curtains to keep him up.
 
Seeing a three year old close to the ceiling and completely parallel with the floor is quite a sight!
 
Thankfully by the time #3 came along my oldest was old enough that I didn't need to keep a death grip on him in a parking lot.
 

ORIGINAL: janet_rose
To get us across a large, busy parking lot (with multiple entrances/exits) and into a building for a doctor's appointment, she had me and my next sister in harnesses with short leashes.  A woman (complete stranger) had the audacity to chew her out for "treating her children like dogs".  
 

 
A couple of months ago the kids were "training" stuffed animals and I realized they had been paying very good attention to Gizmo. So, since they also like to pretend to BE animals, I took total advantage of this on a shopping trip when my hands were full.
 
[sm=wavetowel.gif] Yes. I admit it. I had my two younger kids "heel" out of the store and across the parking lot.
 
When I asked them if they could heel like Gizmo, the 4 yr old barked and the 6 yr old panted at me. It was a big game for them and with one on each hip I could keep them safe at all times and if one tried to bolt I could drop a bag and grab his shirt. Now sometimes they ask when we go in a store if they are supposed to walk like Gizmo.[]
 
Hey, it works right?

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

The blame should rest squarely on the owner. This dog was clearly a danger to society and should have been handled by a responsible adult when out in public and should have worn a muzzle. Anyone that takes a dog out like that without a muzzle, isn't very bright, in my opinion.

anyone who approaches a growling dog to pet it is stupid. if they get bit it is out of their own stupidity, and they need to take responsibility for their own actions.

Actually, you are both right.