Are people who love pitties actually helping BSL spread?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

The blame should rest squarely on the owner. This dog was clearly a danger to society and should have been handled by a responsible adult when out in public and should have worn a muzzle. Anyone that takes a dog out like that without a muzzle, isn't very bright, in my opinion.

anyone who approaches a growling dog to pet it is stupid. if they get bit it is out of their own stupidity, and they need to take responsibility for their own actions.

Actually, you are both right. 

If the person that was bitten was a 2-3 year old toddler that got away from it's parents for a moment ( and if you say that can't happen, you have never raised kids) , would you explain to this child at the time  that it was "their fault" , or would you wait another year or two so that they could better comprehend what you were trying  to explain to them ? [&:]

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

The blame should rest squarely on the owner. This dog was clearly a danger to society and should have been handled by a responsible adult when out in public and should have worn a muzzle. Anyone that takes a dog out like that without a muzzle, isn't very bright, in my opinion.

anyone who approaches a growling dog to pet it is stupid. if they get bit it is out of their own stupidity, and they need to take responsibility for their own actions.

Actually, you are both right. 

If the person that was bitten was a 2-3 year old toddler that got away from it's parents for a moment ( and if you say that can't happen, you have never raised kids) , would you explain to this child at the time  that it was "their fault" , or would you wait another year or two so that they could better comprehend what you were trying  to explain to them ? [&:]

Oooh me, me....

I WAS that toddler, and I did get bitten.  And you know what, my folks told me it WAS my fault. 

There are  a lot of lessons I learned throughout my life about dogs, some weren't so easy to learn-others I learned in a heartbeat- or the amount of time it took to be bitten.

It doesn't make it right that the dog bit me, but I learned at a very early age not to go up to strange dogs and get into their faces.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

The blame should rest squarely on the owner. This dog was clearly a danger to society and should have been handled by a responsible adult when out in public and should have worn a muzzle. Anyone that takes a dog out like that without a muzzle, isn't very bright, in my opinion.

anyone who approaches a growling dog to pet it is stupid. if they get bit it is out of their own stupidity, and they need to take responsibility for their own actions.

Actually, you are both right. 

If the person that was bitten was a 2-3 year old toddler that got away from it's parents for a moment ( and if you say that can't happen, you have never raised kids) , would you explain to this child at the time  that it was "their fault" , or would you wait another year or two so that they could better comprehend what you were trying  to explain to them ? [&:]

Oooh me, me....

I WAS that toddler, and I did get bitten.  And you know what, my folks told me it WAS my fault. 

There are  a lot of lessons I learned throughout my life about dogs, some weren't so easy to learn-others I learned in a heartbeat- or the amount of time it took to be bitten.

It doesn't make it right that the dog bit me, but I learned at a very early age not to go up to strange dogs and get into their faces.

Consider yourself lucky that you didn't sustain a serious injury or worse, many kids aren't .   I wouldn't have taken  that chance with any of my children, when they were young, but that is just me.

*raises hand* I was bit in the face by a Rottweiler as a toddler.  I don't remember the incident, but I believe he was sleeping and I was in his face when he woke up.  No stitches, just some sores/scabs on my face.  I don't remember if my parents ever "explained" the incident to me, but I didn't blame the dog and to this day I'm more comfortable around strange Rotts than strange labs (also had some bad experiences with pushy, mouthy labs as a kid).  The dog was certainly not quarantined or put down after this...again I don't remember this far back...but I'm pretty sure this dog died years later when it ran in the street and was hit.

In contrast..... my uncle had a lab that bit my cousin...twice...HARD...and she was only about 18 months.  After the second incident, he took the dog on one last romp in the woods and put him out himself.  The worse part of the ordeal was that AC decided they had to have the corpse b/c of the bites cutting skin and them wanting to check for rabies.  My uncle loves his dogs, they are working dogs and his work and hunting companions, not house pets, but he had ZERO tolerance for a dog biting a child.

I think I fall somewhere in the middle.  Our friends have a GSP that bit a kid.  The dog was sleeping and the kid laid next to it and poked it, so when the dog woke the kid was RIGHT THERE in her face and she just nipped as an instant reaction.  It didn't even break skin, but the kid's mom flipped out and demanded the dog be put down.  Our friends consulted a behaviorist as a compromise and had to put the dog on drugs (mostly b/c the neighbor insisted it was out of control and viscious), but they did everything the neighbor asked to keep her quiet and kept the dog.  With incidents like this, I doubt I'd really feel it appropriate to put the dog down, and I doubt I'd really feel it appropriate to blame the child, even though he was at fault.  But kids are kids...even if they're taught how to behave around dogs...well, kids are taught lots of things that they often don't do.  []

If the person that was bitten was a 2-3 year old toddler that got away from it's parents for a moment ( and if you say that can't happen, you have never raised kids) , would you explain to this child at the time that it was "their fault" , or would you wait another year or two so that they could better comprehend what you were trying to explain to them ?

so you are expecting every dog owner to have more control over an animal than (by your admission) the majority of people have over their own kids? kids who presumably understand and speak the language of their parents (at least to a degree by 2) to be under less control than a dog who will never speak the same language as me??

BTW, i have told people to rein in their outta control kids. you are sorely mistaken if you think i have to accept the behavior of an outta control kid as the norm or socially acceptable in a public place. try a little discipline.

in the article in question, it wasnt a kid. it was an adult. i have to say if an adult invades my personal space, i will being by nicely asking the to step back, but will escalate to the point to shoving or hitting to get them removed from my personal space. do we expect a dog to do differently?

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

If the person that was bitten was a 2-3 year old toddler that got away from it's parents for a moment ( and if you say that can't happen, you have never raised kids) , would you explain to this child at the time that it was "their fault" , or would you wait another year or two so that they could better comprehend what you were trying to explain to them ?

so you are expecting every dog owner to have more control over an animal than (by your admission) the majority of people have over their own kids? kids who presumably understand and speak the language of their parents (at least to a degree by 2) to be under less control than a dog who will never speak the same language as me??

Absolutely!!!   When toddlers  weigh 60 pounds or more and have teeth than can rip a hole in you in a second, and can run faster than any person, and are people aggressive, and have the capacity to attack other people,  then I would expect the kids to be on a leash and under complete control of their parent just as I would a dog.**Content Removed**   To expect a 2 year old to behave and reason  like an adult, boggles my mind.......

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

If the person that was bitten was a 2-3 year old toddler that got away from it's parents for a moment ( and if you say that can't happen, you have never raised kids) , would you explain to this child at the time that it was "their fault" , or would you wait another year or two so that they could better comprehend what you were trying to explain to them ?

so you are expecting every dog owner to have more control over an animal than (by your admission) the majority of people have over their own kids? kids who presumably understand and speak the language of their parents (at least to a degree by 2) to be under less control than a dog who will never speak the same language as me??

Absolutely!!!   When toddlers  weigh 60 pounds or more and have teeth than can rip a hole in you in a second, and can run faster than any person, and are people aggressive, and have the capacity to attack other people,  then I would expect the kids to be on a leash and under complete control of their parent just as I would a dog. I might be wrong, but I have the feeling that if your dog attacked someone or another dog, your first reaction would be to defend your dog and try to lay blame on  the person or dog being attacked.  To expect a 2 year old to behave and reason  like an adult, boggles my mind.......

 
I don't think Bradley is expecting a toddler to behave and reason like an adult. I think what Bradley is saying, and Bradley can correct me if I'm wrong, is that the toddlers parents should be responsible for their children. As a mother, it's my job to keep my child safe. When he was a toddler and when we were out in public that meant he was holding my hand, in a stroller or in a shopping cart. That kid was never out of my sight and was never allowed to roam more than a few feet away from me. Perhaps I was overprotective but at least I knew he was safe.
 
As a dog owner, it's my job to keep my dogs safe and to make sure they aren't imposing on anyone. While my dogs have been raised around children and do fine with them, I am often surprised at how toddlers will run up to my dogs and their parents aren't anywhere to be seen. That just floors me that some parents are very lax when it comes to their childs well being.
 
Speaking of things along those lines, I remember quite a few stories involving toddlers being attacked by strange dogs. Often times, the toddler escaped their house, because the parent was napping or wasn't paying attention, and made it into the yard of a strange dog. Sadly, the child got attacked and the dog owners had Hell to pay. Not once in any of these stories did I hear of anyone asking where the parents where. Maybe it was me, but the thought of a 3 year old managing to get out of the house to roam the neighborhood and unfortunately getting attacked by a dog is parental neglect. Yet, somehow, the dog owner was supposed to be more responsible when it came to their dog.

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

so you are expecting every dog owner to have more control over an animal than (by your admission) the majority of people have over their own kids? kids who presumably understand and speak the language of their parents (at least to a degree by 2) to be under less control than a dog who will never speak the same language as me??

I expect an ADULT to have better judgement than a child and to use that judgement (and knowledge of their dog) to keep themselves and their dog out of a potentially bad situation---or remove themselves if need be.

If this means the ADULT holding the leash yells "Get away from here you snotty little brat or I'm telling Santa" then so be it. Yell "I am sending a monster to your house to eat you tonight and locked doors won't stop him!" if you want.

And I expect an adult dog to be trained and on a leash and under control.

As for kids speaking English, that's hardly the point. Maturity and predictability of behavior is more the issue.  A three year old kid has more in common maturity-wise with a three month old puppy. Would you expect a 12 week old puppy to be totally well behaved at all times?

BTW, i have told people to rein in their outta control kids. you are sorely mistaken if you think i have to accept the behavior of an outta control kid as the norm or socially acceptable in a public place. try a little discipline.

This is not about accepting a kid's bad behavior. This has NOTHING to do with that. This has to do with your responsibility toward your dog and keeping your dog safe and happy. If a kid causes a problem, chase them away, call the cops, whatever. Don't let a kid within 10 feet of your dog if you want.

No one is saying let a gang of kids tease your dog. What I am saying is that people should be in control of their dogs in public.

in the article in question, it wasnt a kid. it was an adult. i have to say if an adult invades my personal space, i will being by nicely asking the to step back, but will escalate to the point to shoving or hitting to get them removed from my personal space. do we expect a dog to do differently?

And back to the original elderly woman who bent to pet what she thought was a friendly dog and was only told as she bent to pet the dog that she shouldn't. BTW I am still un-convinced that she heard the growl which could have been very low-pitched...

If the dog had bitten her hand once that would have been doggie self-defense and reasonable. Pulling back and "muscling" out of his collar to jump on her and bite her arm, face and head repeatedly until he was hauled off her by a neighbor and then attacking other neighbors who fought him off with shovels and sticks is completely UNREASONABLE.

[sm=backtotopic.gif] My point was---and continues to be---that defending the dog's actions by focusing on the victim and failing to condemn the behavior of the dog's owner and the dog makes it sound as though what the dog did was an acceptable reaction.

If someone tells me that it WAS a reasonable and acceptable thing for the dog to do, then I wonder where they draw the line. If trying to pet him means he can do this, then what if she tried to take a bone away from him? If she stepped on his foot? What it she deliberately slapped him? Is killing her for one slap acceptable?

ORIGINAL: meilani

Speaking of things along those lines, I remember quite a few stories involving toddlers being attacked by strange dogs. Often times, the toddler escaped their house, because the parent was napping or wasn't paying attention, and made it into the yard of a strange dog. Sadly, the child got attacked and the dog owners had Hell to pay. Not once in any of these stories did I hear of anyone asking where the parents where. Maybe it was me, but the thought of a 3 year old managing to get out of the house to roam the neighborhood and unfortunately getting attacked by a dog is parental neglect. Yet, somehow, the dog owner was supposed to be more responsible when it came to their dog.

 
I know some kid escape artists who HAVE managed to sneak out of the house at odd hours while people were sleeping. One parent I know put a buzzer alarm on all the doors so that she would wake up if the kid tried to get out again.
 
That being said, if a child goes into a dog's yard and is bitten it is a tragedy, but the dog and owner are (IMHO) in the clear. This falls in the accident category and it was an accident that the dog's owner could not have been expected to prevent.  I can't imagine anyone I know seeing this situation any differently.

I think this is going in circles, and will continue to go in circles.  The debate over controlling children isn't unique to dogs, nor is the concept of personal space and respecting public areas like sidwalks. 

Dumb as it sounds, I think the only solution in general is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Don't walk your dog with a 15 ft. flexi during the busiest part of the evening when dozens of other people are on the sidewalk.  Don't giggle and say "how cute!" when your toddler runs up to a strange dog and hugs it without asking.  Don't ride your bikes in the streets without paying any attention to other vehicles.  Don't ride your motorcycle 30 mph on the sidewalk!  Do be aware of your surroundings, your dog's temperament, and other people's personal space.  Do at least attempt to teach your children how to approach strange dogs and why it's important to use caution with dogs we don't know.  Do be respectful of the fact that a sidewalk is a public area that everyone should be able to walk on without having to fear aggressive dogs, crazy kids on bikes, or people using it as a shortcut for their motorcycles.  Common sense!

When toddlers weigh 60 pounds or more and have teeth than can rip a hole in you in a second, and can run faster than any person, and are people aggressive, and have the capacity to attack other people, then I would expect the kids to be on a leash and under complete control of their parent just as I would a dog.

I saw a 42-lb two-year-old boy the other day - sweet and very, very active.  This kid was large, but not fat at all.  If he did get mad and decide to bite, he could really do some damage - especially if he decided to bite a dog's ear.  He could fall on a small dog and break the dog's back.
 
[font=verdana]Around cars or dogs parents should keep their eyes or hands on toddlers at all times.  If a parent doesn't have the concentration to keep their eyes on the kid (and the kid close enough to grab), then the parent should be physically attached to the child in some way.  [/font]
[font=verdana][/font] 
[font=verdana]The child's parent and the dog's owner share responsibility for keeping the child safe from the dog and the dog safe from the child.  However, the individual in charge of the loose animal (child or dog) has more responsibility since that person has elected to take more risk.  If both are loose, the dog owner has the majority of the responsibility.[/font]
 
I am large enough and strong enough to walk (emphasis on "walk") a leashed, medium sized dog.  However, at my age any parent that expects me to be able to outrun their small child is nuts.  Could I control a 50-lb dog with one hand, a 42-lb toddler with the other, and keep them separated?  Questionable!

I don't think Bradley is expecting a toddler to behave and reason like an adult. I think what Bradley is saying, and Bradley can correct me if I'm wrong, is that the toddlers parents should be responsible for their children. As a mother, it's my job to keep my child safe. When he was a toddler and when we were out in public that meant he was holding my hand, in a stroller or in a shopping cart. That kid was never out of my sight and was never allowed to roam more than a few feet away from me. Perhaps I was overprotective but at least I knew he was safe

this was exactly my point. if your toddler ran into traffic and was hit by a car, would you blame the driver?

as a parent your responsibility is to keep your children from harm or potential harm. you have no way of knowing whether a strange cocker spaniel will attack your child if he runs up and grabs the dog. i think a major problem in the US today is the fact that people are not willing to accept responsiblity for their actions. meilani may or may not be overprotective, but at least she is taking responsibility to keep her kids outta harms way. (for the record my parents did exactly the same things meilani does... kept us near them by holding our hands or otherwise keeping us confined and within sight)

maybe it was overprotective, but i never got mauled by a dog, ran over by a car, abducted, etc.

Would you expect a 12 week old puppy to be totally well behaved at all times?

no, but according to some people who have responded it should be or i should keep it home.

What I am saying is that people should be in control of their dogs in public.

and people should be in control of their kids in public too. doesnt happen very often though.

ORIGINAL: polarexpress

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

so you are expecting every dog owner to have more control over an animal than (by your admission) the majority of people have over their own kids? kids who presumably understand and speak the language of their parents (at least to a degree by 2) to be under less control than a dog who will never speak the same language as me??

I expect an ADULT to have better judgement than a child and to use that judgement (and knowledge of their dog) to keep themselves and their dog out of a potentially bad situation---or remove themselves if need be.

If this means the ADULT holding the leash yells "Get away from here you snotty little brat or I'm telling Santa" then so be it. Yell "I am sending a monster to your house to eat you tonight and locked doors won't stop him!" if you want.

And I expect an adult dog to be trained and on a leash and under control.

As for kids speaking English, that's hardly the point. Maturity and predictability of behavior is more the issue.  A three year old kid has more in common maturity-wise with a three month old puppy. Would you expect a 12 week old puppy to be totally well behaved at all times?

BTW, i have told people to rein in their outta control kids. you are sorely mistaken if you think i have to accept the behavior of an outta control kid as the norm or socially acceptable in a public place. try a little discipline.

This is not about accepting a kid's bad behavior. This has NOTHING to do with that. This has to do with your responsibility toward your dog and keeping your dog safe and happy. If a kid causes a problem, chase them away, call the cops, whatever. Don't let a kid within 10 feet of your dog if you want.

No one is saying let a gang of kids tease your dog. What I am saying is that people should be in control of their dogs in public.

in the article in question, it wasnt a kid. it was an adult. i have to say if an adult invades my personal space, i will being by nicely asking the to step back, but will escalate to the point to shoving or hitting to get them removed from my personal space. do we expect a dog to do differently?

And back to the original elderly woman who bent to pet what she thought was a friendly dog and was only told as she bent to pet the dog that she shouldn't. BTW I am still un-convinced that she heard the growl which could have been very low-pitched...

If the dog had bitten her hand once that would have been doggie self-defense and reasonable. Pulling back and "muscling" out of his collar to jump on her and bite her arm, face and head repeatedly until he was hauled off her by a neighbor and then attacking other neighbors who fought him off with shovels and sticks is completely UNREASONABLE.

[sm=backtotopic.gif] My point was---and continues to be---that defending the dog's actions by focusing on the victim and failing to condemn the behavior of the dog's owner and the dog makes it sound as though what the dog did was an acceptable reaction.

If someone tells me that it WAS a reasonable and acceptable thing for the dog to do, then I wonder where they draw the line. If trying to pet him means he can do this, then what if she tried to take a bone away from him? If she stepped on his foot? What it she deliberately slapped him? Is killing her for one slap acceptable?

You are exactly right, and to be quite honest, I can't believe the attitude by some, that the women in the OP had it coming and it wasn't the dog's fault.  That is what is really scarey to me, and I have seen this same attitude projected  by other dog owners over the years.  Their little sweety 4 legged sometimes aggressive monster is never at fault, it is always the one that was attacked by their dog that was the problem. And, I believe, that there are many dog owners out there that are also  probably thinking that the dog's reaction was acceptable.  That is exactly why people don't like potentially dangerous dogs in their neighborhood. Read the threads on this forum written by people that had their dogs attacked by an off leash dog, and many of them talk about the owner of the attacking dog trying to blame the dog that was attacked. People that can't take responsibility for their dogs actions, shouldn't own a dog in my opinion.

What is really strange  in this entire thread, is that the point that the OP was making has been exhibited by several responses in this thread, exactly as he had predicted. And I believe the OP is right, that this attitude of blaming the victim is why many people don't trust Bully Breed dogs and their owners, because we hear and see  this "it's not my fault, it's yours" attitude  demonstrated over and over again.  People that hear this attitude and read about it in the papers are going to be the same people that are  pushing  their local government and the home owners association where they live to get  BSL, or a ban on all dogs ,  in place.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I think this is going in circles, and will continue to go in circles.  The debate over controlling children isn't unique to dogs, nor is the concept of personal space and respecting public areas like sidwalks. 

Dumb as it sounds, I think the only solution in general is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Don't walk your dog with a 15 ft. flexi during the busiest part of the evening when dozens of other people are on the sidewalk.  Don't giggle and say "how cute!" when your toddler runs up to a strange dog and hugs it without asking.  Don't ride your bikes in the streets without paying any attention to other vehicles.  Don't ride your motorcycle 30 mph on the sidewalk!  Do be aware of your surroundings, your dog's temperament, and other people's personal space.  Do at least attempt to teach your children how to approach strange dogs and why it's important to use caution with dogs we don't know.  Do be respectful of the fact that a sidewalk is a public area that everyone should be able to walk on without having to fear aggressive dogs, crazy kids on bikes, or people using it as a shortcut for their motorcycles.  Common sense!

Thanks for the sanity.  This is really what it boils down to IMO.

I think I fall somewhere in the middle.  Our friends have a GSP that bit a kid.  The dog was sleeping and the kid laid next to it and poked it, so when the dog woke the kid was RIGHT THERE in her face and she just nipped as an instant reaction.  It didn't even break skin, but the kid's mom flipped out and demanded the dog be put down.  Our friends consulted a behaviorist as a compromise and had to put the dog on drugs (mostly b/c the neighbor insisted it was out of control and viscious), but they did everything the neighbor asked to keep her quiet and kept the dog.  With incidents like this, I doubt I'd really feel it appropriate to put the dog down, and I doubt I'd really feel it appropriate to blame the child, even though he was at fault.  But kids are kids...even if they're taught how to behave around dogs...well, kids are taught lots of things that they often don't do.  []

It would be an absolute travesty to put down a dog like the GSD mentioned above.  The dog was "attacked" while sleeping, and showed great bite inhibition by giving a warning snap.  A warning snap can tear tender human flesh, but it is not the same thing as a bite or an attack.