Are people who love pitties actually helping BSL spread?

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

Quite a few Pit Bulls are from backyard breeders where a couple of Pits are living tied to a tree 24/7 , are bred, and now you have 6 or more pups with parents that have zero socialization , and the pups probably won't either.

It is really questionable as to how many of the BYB pit bulls are anything more than mongrels.  It is a shame to condemn a breed for the actions of their poorly bred, mongrel cousins.
 

Can they be "mongrels" and still have AKC papers?  [&:]

ORIGINAL: sillysally

ORIGINAL: sillysally

ORIGINAL: buster the show dog

ORIGINAL: denise m

..... They are touted as the perfect pet. Any attacks are dismissed as owner fault or victim fault. Now this may all be true but due to the shear strength and potenial for severe injury/death, I would have hoped that all those who love and support this breed would ALWAYS include a cautionary note to potential owners. "This is not a dog for everybody." I never hear pitbull supporters say this!

I agree with your sentiment here, but I think one has to go far beyond the generic "This is not a dog for everybody". Actually I do see PB fanciers use that bland caution pretty frequently. So do Labrador fanciers, golden fanciers, beagle fanciers, papillon fanciers, newfie fanciers....

"Not a breed for everybody" is absolutely meaningless, unless that is followed by a very specific description of what the downsides are.
Beagles howl a lot, labs are bouncy and high energy and demanding as adolescents and they are adolescents until they are ten years old,....

PB's have historically been specifically bred to enjoy engaging in dog fights and to never give up once a fight has started, and to be physically capable of killing other muscular and athletic opponents. Even if PB's are not human aggressive, their tendency to engage in fights with other dogs should not be passed off as "only" aggressive to other dogs. I don't want my canine friends mauled any more than I want my human friends to be, and potential PB owners need to be made aware that they will have to take far more precautions in this regard than your typical beagle owner is likely to. And, for all the statements about how human-friendly PB's are, that may not necessarily apply to the very very large number of irresponsibly bred ones. There is no denying that a segment of society breeds PB's to be intimidating to humans, and so great care must be used in selecting a PB for a pet. They should only be obtained from responsible breeders or rescues who have gone to great lengths to test the stability of their animals around humans in stressful situations.

I happen to think that a PB with a proper temperment is one of the most charming and delightful dogs imaginable. But I agree with the original poster that blaming the victim, whether it is human or dog, when an attack occurs does the PB no good in the long run, and overselling the PB as the ideal companion without very specific caveats ultimately leads to them being owned by well meaning but unprepared owners who think that their dog "is very friendly, but he doesn't like to be touched by other people" and allow it to be walked in a poorly fitting collar by a 12 year old.

When I got my pit bull/pit bull mix (we don't really know-she was a stray so we are guessing) I knew nothing about dogs.  I did lots of reseach on pit bulls and I did not find pit bull sites to be overselling the breed at all.  In fact, they were all very, very cautionary.  When DH and I made the final decision to keep her we did have all the facts and have not really had any surprises.

I highly doubt this 12 year old was walking a human aggressive dog because pit bull rescues said they were good pets.  I think it is much more likely that she was walking a human aggressive dog on an ill-fitting collar because of a lack of common sense at home, not a lack of proper warnings from pit bull advocates.  Honestly, I would not let a 12 year old walk my non-dog aggressive, non-human aggressive, totally over-the-top friendly lab without some sort of supervision.

The majority of the RESPONSIBLE pit bull community are temperment Nazis.  The things that other dog owners see a behaviorist or trainer for, they euth for.  There was a woman I knew of who had one of her pits PTS literally because she did not like the posture of his body when he saw a stranger.  They do not recommend muzzles, they recommend the needle.  Even though dog aggression does occur in the breed, often if the dog aggression is very bad, euth is often  recommended.  This is not because of laziness, but rather in the "good of the group trumps the good the the individual" line of thinking.  Personally, I am pretty much in agreement with this thinking.  Extreme?  Maybe, but when you consider that we are discussing the very future of the breed here--not so much.

Who is at fault here?  The owners, plain and simple.  I hope that they are legally punished somehow.

-at the VERY LEAST, the dog should have been muzzled
-a large, huamn aggressive dog should NEVER, EVER, under ANY circumstances be walked by a 12 year old child-period
-no dog, aggressive or not should be walked on an ill-fitting collar.

Bob, please read the above post.  I am agreeing with you.  I am not sure why you are trying to argue with me......

I am not arguing with you, I am adding to what you said..  

This was in an email I got from my daughter this morning after I forwarded her the link to the article on the PB attack of the elderly women...


My friend Susan and her husband and their Springer Spaniel got attacked a couple weeks ago while walking their dog by a pit Bull .It actually attacked their dog and when they all got tangled in the lease and tried to protect their dog it attacked her husband and he has several bites.  The dogs been put down now since the owners didn't claim it after the 10 day hold but she said it was very scary.  Their poor dog had a gentle leader collar on and couldn't open her mouth very wide to even protect herself.   They've thrown out the gentle leader and now go on walks with a golf club in hand.

ORIGINAL: Dog_ma

I think an appropriate conversation to have and expose JQP to would include BOTH the irresponsibility of the owner is this case and the correct way to behave with strange dogs. 

It is not JQP's responsibilty to adjust to the behavior of an aggressive dog. When I took my dog for Therapy Dog Testing, I heard and examiner tell another owner who had let her dog approach the examiner, close enough to touch the examiner, and the dog she was holding say "  You have to have complete control of your dog at all times, and should not allow your dog to even approach any other person or dog without their permission".  I am a pilot and there are many things about aviation that are dangerous for people that don't have any experience with aircraft. It is not up to my passengers to avoid walking into a prop and being dismembered, it is up to me to insure that there is no way this can happen.

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

Quite a few Pit Bulls are from backyard breeders where a couple of Pits are living tied to a tree 24/7 , are bred, and now you have 6 or more pups with parents that have zero socialization , and the pups probably won't either.

It is really questionable as to how many of the BYB pit bulls are anything more than mongrels.  It is a shame to condemn a breed for the actions of their poorly bred, mongrel cousins.
 

Can they be "mongrels" and still have AKC papers?  [&:]

American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and Bull Terriers are the only "bully breeds" that are registered with the AKC.  American Pit Bull Terriers are registered with the UKC.  In answer to your question, yes, many of the APBT registered with the UKC are not purebred as the organization has had an issue people with forging papers.

Many of the "pit bulls" you see for sale for $100 bucks are NOT registered.  It is not uncommon at all for people to breed unregistered litters, at least in my area.

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: Dog_ma

I think an appropriate conversation to have and expose JQP to would include BOTH the irresponsibility of the owner is this case and the correct way to behave with strange dogs. 

It is not JQP's responsibilty to adjust to the behavior of an aggressive dog. When I took my dog for Therapy Dog Testing, I heard and examiner tell another owner who had let her dog approach the examiner, close enough to touch the examiner, and the dog she was holding say "  You have to have complete control of your dog at all times, and should not allow your dog to even approach any other person or dog without their permission".  I am a pilot and there are many things about aviation that are dangerous for people that don't have any experience with aircraft. It is not up to my passengers to avoid walking into a prop and being dismembered, it is up to me to insure that there is no way this can happen.

While I agree that I ultimately have responsibility for my dogs' behavior, learning how to behave around strange dogs is just a good idea in a world where one is likely to encounter dogs on a daily basis, just like learning how to behave as a pedestrian in traffic, etc.  Technically I have right of way as a predestrian, but that does not mean I fling myself headlong across a four lane highway.  Pedaphiles should not be touching children but we still teach them the difference between "good touch and bad touch" and what to do if someone tries to kidnap them in the hopes that this knowledge will help prevent an incident.

Before I had dogs, I knew nothing about them.  I was in my local Pet Supplies Plus on day around Christmas time.  This guy had a large male chocolate lab and I wanted to pet him.  As I approached the dog started to growl a bit, but his tail was still wagging (slowly and deliberately) so I ask if it was OK to pet him.  The owner said "Oh sure, he always growls like that, you can go ahead."  I pet him and his growling got deeper and I eventually decieded that I'd better stop.  Now I realize how lucky I was not to have been bitten.  If i had known protocal for dealing with strange dogs, I would have never even allowed myself to be in that situation.

When I was a little girl I hugged a strange GSD and was biten in the face (21 stitches) as a result.  My parents never insisted that the dog be destroyed because they figured that if they had made more of an impression on me about strange dogs and had been watching me more closely it would never have happened.  Whenever I am out in public and a child comes right up to one of my dogs without asking I show them my scars and tell them about how dangorous it is for them to do that.

If I ever have kids not only will I push for dog safety programs in their school but I will also teach them at home and enroll them in one if I can--it is something that is very improtant to me.

It sounds to me like the bulk of the blame has to fall on the clueless owners in this case.  And I wouldn't care if the dog were a danged poodle.  Ill fitting collar, known not to "like being petted by strangers" and a 12 year old child all add up to trouble brewing.
 
Granted, granny should have avoided the dog like the plague, but I think we have to look to her country of origin, her lack of ability to understand the language and perhaps her unfamiliarity with dogs in general before we label her "at fault".
 
However, saying that folks should not have to adjust to situations is much like saying that McDonalds should serve COLD coffee because some fool got burned.  Well, duhhhhhh.  I personally don't want cold coffee unless I specifically order it ICED and I'm gonna be PO'd if my coffee isn't hot when I get it.  Now perhaps an argument could be made that they need to design a lid that goes on and stays on more easily but how foolish is it that the lid has to say that the coffee is HOT?  99% of the time, those of us who order coffee, want HOT coffee.
 
So, it's always someone elses fault when WE do something stupid?  Maybe you shouldn't have started the props turning before I got in the plane, but I, as an intelligent human being, shouldn't be walking around a running airplane not paying a bit of attention.  So the OB didn't demand that a pregnant mom stop drinking/smoking, doing drugs and the child is born damaged from said action, lets sue the DOC?  My doc has been nagging for the past year for me to quit smoking....and 8-10 times in a 20 minute office visit he'll say "so you need to quit smoking", but he can't MAKE me stop until I'm darned good and ready.  Can I sue him for not MAKING me stop if I develop some smoking related problem?
 
In this particular case, maybe not so much, (granny and the pittie to be clear), but we all need to take more personal responsibility and not push the blame off on everyone else anytime stuff goes wrong.

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

This was in an email I got from my daughter this morning after I forwarded her the link to the article on the PB attack of the elderly women...


My friend Susan and her husband and their Springer Spaniel got attacked a couple weeks ago while walking their dog by a pit Bull .It actually attacked their dog and when they all got tangled in the lease and tried to protect their dog it attacked her husband and he has several bites.  The dogs been put down now since the owners didn't claim it after the 10 day hold but she said it was very scary.  Their poor dog had a gentle leader collar on and couldn't open her mouth very wide to even protect herself.   They've thrown out the gentle leader and now go on walks with a golf club in hand.

Please tell your daughter's friend that as a pit bull owner I am very, genuinly sorry.[]  It very literally bring tears to my eyes to read stories like that.  It apparently has been a bad week for both "my" breeds, seeing as someone's min pin was attacked by labs[].  Stuff like this really makes me fear for both my dogs' futures......

I think expecting another person to have to deal with a  dog's behavior problems is unreasonable.  If I was a non dog owner and someone told me that I had to teach my 2 year old daughter how to react around their dog, should they meet on the street, to insure that she wouldn't be attacked, I would tell them flat out to keep their ##@# dog off the street then or but a muzzle on it, or both. If I am the dog owner, and I see a 2 year old child approaching, I make sure that there is no way my dog can get near that child.  That is totally my responsibility, not the childs. If I cannot do that, then I should not be out with my dog, where there is a possibility of my dog harming someone. That is being a responsible owner and I see people, every day, that do not do this.

 In the park next door to my home, and two others that I frequent, I am constantly running into people that let their dogs run up to my dog without permission.  Many times I walk way off the path to avoid the dogs getting too close, because I can see that the other person isn't   able to keep their dog out of my dog's space. To me, that is an ignorant, inconsiderate owner, and there are many of them out there. You would think that they would have the brains to realize that I am moving off the path to avoid their dog, so they would reel their dog in instead of having it at the end of a 15 foot lead, and totally crossing the path towards my dog. So I am starting to realize that many dog owners have no idea how to control their dogs, don't know much about dog behavior, don't bother training their dogs, and sometimes have dogs that are a danger to the general public. Many of these people, when their dog attacks someone, will be the first ones to blame the victim. 

As a dog owner, my dogs are my responsibility. If I tell someone that they cannot pet my dog for whatever reason, it's their responsibility to listen to what I say. Does that mean I shouldn't take my dogs out in public because I don't want people to pet them? As a parent, I am responsible for my child and any child under my care. As a parent, I would not allow my child to go up to a strange dog nor pet one unless they ask for permission. I think the problem these days is no one wants to take responsibility for their actions and are too quick to pawn that responsibility onto other people.

ORIGINAL: meilani

As a dog owner, my dogs are my responsibility. If I tell someone that they cannot pet my dog for whatever reason, it's their responsibility to listen to what I say. Does that mean I shouldn't take my dogs out in public because I don't want people to pet them? As a parent, I am responsible for my child and any child under my care. As a parent, I would not allow my child to go up to a strange dog nor pet one unless they ask for permission. I think the problem these days is no one wants to take responsibility for their actions and are too quick to pawn that responsibility onto other people.

If you don't want people to pet your dog, because you know it might bite someone that does that, then I don't think you should have your dog out in a public place like a park  or crowded sidewalk, where it might encounter young children without a muzzle.

IMO there is (or should be) a reasonable expectation of personal safety in public areas. ANY dog in a public setting should not pose a threat, whether it be by temperment, training or owner control. I agree with Bobsk8. It is unreasonable to expect the general public to be constantly concerned as to the potenial risk of dogs in our public space. Call me naive, but if I see a dog in public I assume they pose NO RISK and I, my children and my dog should be able to occupy that same space without fear.

But, see, this goes both ways.  My perfectly safe dog should also be safe from someone elses child.  We all, canine or human, are entitled to our own personal space within that public space.
 
We had an incident a few weeks ago.  We had stopped for a break while on a long walk.  We were on a public sidewalk sitting on a bench giving three german shepherds treats.  All three dogs were sitting nicely.  We were relaxing and enjoying our day.  Out of nowhere some little boy is poking my dogs in the face.  "please leave my dogs alone" didn't work, "you do NOT poke a strange dog in the face if you value your fingers" did not work.  My dogs getting up (without permission for which I did not scold" and walking AWAY from the child did not work...the kid followed and started grabbing tails.  This kid was at least 8 years old, no parents in sight, and I finally bellowed 'LEAVE MY DA**ED DOGS ALONE, NOOOOWWWWW."  Only at that point did the beligerent dad appear and start screaming at me.  I handed DH the leads and walked away from the dogs, who were not pleased with the turn of events, and grabbed the kid by the hand and marched him with me, all the while listening to the man scream and rant.  Oh, and accuse me of having dangerous dogs.
 
I very calmly advised him that if my dogs were not very well trained and NOT dangerous that his child would no longer have a face.  That HIS child had come up and started poking my calm and quiet dogs in their faces while they were eating their treats, that his child IGNORED my nice requests to keep his fingers and hands off my dogs and that perhaps he should rethink his position on who was the most dangerous....his CHILD or my dogs, who throughout this were sitting a few feet away...yes, sitting.  Thor DID jump to his feet when the man started shouting and waving his arms around in the air, however, he stood and watched.  And yeah, he can look a bit menacing.  At this point the Village cop stops to see whats going on and basically told the man to take his kid home and work on training HIM to respect other people and other peoples property, in this case, my dogs.  He said to ME, "I'm sorry that happened to you mam....parents these days"
 
So while I work to insure that your child is safe from my dogs, kindly return the favor and make sure that my dogs are safe from your kid.

Glenmar, exactly.

I agree that the owner of the pit bull in question is responsible for the attack.  The traffic analogy that a pp mentioned is spot on.  I have a young child, and I am strict about street safety.  I am also strict about dog safety.  It amazes me that the same parents who would never let a child run into a street will let a child run up and hug a strange dog.

This is not an either/or situation.  Owners should know their dogs, and maintain proper control and precautions.  Ultimate responsibility lies with owners.  Non-owners should also learn basic dog safety, because "its the owner's fault" is of little consolation when your face has been bitten off. 

I won't subject my dogs to PetSmart or PetCo.
 
It seems to me though, that in this case the dog's response far exceed the actions of the woman.