To Save or Not to Save....(sillysally)

I would think that in many, many instances, it boils down to having a place for the dog that insures the safety of dogs and people.  This means foster homes most of the time.  Most rescues are always in need of foster homes.  Dogs with serious aggression issues need a foster home with experience, time, committment and access to a behaviorist, unless they are qualified to rehab a dog like this.  It's a huge liability to adopt out or even foster a dog with serious aggression issues.  I think lots of dogs that can be rehabbed are euthed for this reason.  Unfortunately, in many areas there is not enough space, money or time to save dogs that could be great pets in the right home with the right rehabilitation.  The fact is if I had to choose which dog to save, I would choose the dog without aggression problems.  The reason for that choice is because I think the non aggressive dog has the best long term chance of finding a permanent home.  That's if I were in charge of a rescue or shelter.  My personal choice might be different.

 What do you think qualifies as "serious" aggression?  A dog that has bitten a human?  A dog that has attacked another dog?  If so, how bad of an attack qualifies as "serious?"  What about other animals?  If a dog kills a cat is it serious aggression?  What about other critters, like birds, rabbits, etc?

 I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious as to what people consider serious aggression.....

You have a good point.  Who decides which dog is aggressive?  Who is the person evaluating the aggression.  Some cases that seem clear cut aren't always.  I wouldn't want to make the decision based on second and third hand accounts from complete strangers.  This is the situation many rescues and shelters find themselves facing I'm sure.  But do you discount a reported unprovoked account that resulted in serious injury or death?  I don't see how you can.  As far as a dog killing birds, rabbits or other small prey animals, that would come under a different set of criteria, IMO.  There could be exceptions to that but for the most part that wouldn't seem to be in the same catagory.

 I think ultimately it is about resources - if it takes the same amount of time and resources to save one aggressive or dog in need of rehabbing versus 10 easy dogs they choose (by and large) the easy route.

That said here is a great story from the SPCA that I got Bugsy from  www.spcawake.org/hope

link to today's video

which was posted on Facebook

basically she was a pit from a dog fighting ring found wandering alone with half her face missing last year.  They worked super hard to heal her physically and emotionally and yesterday she found her forever home.

I think this is a very sticky topic. Aggression can be defined differently by different people.

sillysally

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just curious as to what people consider serious aggression.....

In my personal opinion, a dog that has a serious aggression issue is aggressive towards humans and has attacked- or tried to- unprovoked. But honestly, those are very few. Dog/dog aggression is different to me than dog/human aggression. And dog/human aggression is different than food aggression or resource guarding. Also, some dogs just have a high prey drive, that doesn't make it an aggressive dog (even if it killed the family cat or pet bunny). The true "red zone" dogs that are in shelters, IDK...it's not that they aren't worth saving, but, a dog without any issues is just easier to place. It's not the way I like it, but it's true. The way the economy is today, considering most shelters are running on volunteers and donations, it is extremely difficult to fund the rehab of a dog (vs. just placing an already even tempered dog), and that liability is always in the back of your mind.
........I hope I made some sense!

I wish there was enough time and money and good homes with educated and responsible owners for ALL dogs.

Every rescuer is going to look at this differently based on their own value system. From a straight business standpoint, only dogs that can be safely and quickly rehomed, with a minimum of vet expense and training time would make the cut. Big black, older dogs, and bully breeds probably wouldn't make it.

From what I have seen on the Petfinder site, there are a lot of small underfunded overworked and frustrated rescue groups that are doing good work.  Many seem to specialize in problem dogs, even though they desperately need more money, more help, and fewer dogs in need.  They would probably be able to place more dogs if they selected out the difficult dogs, but that would not be their chosen mission.

I personally would not deliberately chose to take a chronically ill dog into my home.  I have never hesitated to take my dog to the vet when needed, and if my dog developed a chronic illness after becoming my pet, I would keep her and care for her as needed as long a financially possible. But I see no reason to adopt a hugh set of vet bills if I can avoid it. It sounds nice for a rescue to say that they spent thousands of dollars to save an injured dog, but then they also tell you how short of money they are and how to use paypal....  It seems that somewhere there is a point where it is just good sense to spend the money on more animals rather than on one with very expensive needs. Right now, that point is determined by each rescue group. And that is fine.  Their dogs, their money, their time.

Behavior is another matter.  The financial realities of a dog that behaves badly can be devastating, and to place a dog with known behavior problems is really unethical.  A dog that is known to be people aggressive should be put down.  A dog that is known to be animal aggressive is an accident waiting to happen.  All life is not equal. This should be a recognized reality.  The man with a gun is more powerful, as is the man with more money.  In my own mind, I am more important than anyone else, and to me, my dog is more important and more valuable than yours( she is also cuter and smarter).  In the wild, the strongest survives.  You don't see many deer hunting and killing grizzly bear.  All life is not equal, and saying it often does not make it so.  A rat is a dog is a boy is so wrong on any level. And unless you can guarantee that a rescued dog is safe to people and other dogs, how can you place it in a home. Even with an experienced person , accidents can happen. A dog that is not safe is not worth keeping, and should be either permanently segregated or put down.  To knowingly expose other people and pets to a dangerous dog is criminally stupid.

If that pit had attacked and injured my dog, I would try legal action. But if the only way to protect my dog was to eliminate the pit, it would happen .

JackieG

But do you discount a reported unprovoked account that resulted in serious injury or death?  I don't see how you can.  As far as a dog killing birds, rabbits or other small prey animals, that would come under a different set of criteria, IMO. 

Well, i think that depends on serious injury or death to *what,* exactly?

I personally think that a dog that would attack a human unprovoked should not be adopted out.  However, what about the case of other pets?  My aunt and uncle have a pair of dogs, Duke and Steve, that live in their barn with their horses.  They are fine with people, horses and each other.  Last year my cousin's friend dropped a litter of kittens off at their barn and they put them in a stall.  As soon as the kittens were old enough to climb out of the stall, Duke and Steve deliberately killed them off, one by one, over a period of weeks.  I have to wonder, would most people consider Duke and Steve unadoptable because of their cat killing tendencies? 

Also, I wonder if the circumstances should matter in an attack.  Should it matter if a dog went after another dog out of prey drive or out of sheer dog aggression?

sillysally

Should there be exceptions made, and if so, where DO we draw that line in the sand?

I think exceptions can be made.  But, using myself as an example.  I worked really hard to keep Willow.  I stayed up nights researching.  The person would either need to be extremely dedicated and/or experienced already.  I think so few people would really be right for a dog with aggression issues.  Add health issues and it just gets to be too much.  Willow has overwhelmed us with liability and also financially.  Thankfully, we were able to get thru the worst of the aggression.  But, she's still completely managed every second--to me "rehab" doesn't mean anything. Yes, they can get better and even learn, but still you cannot trust a dog with these past problems.  And, we are fortunate in that I could afford her health care.  I just in reality don't see many people that will be willing or able to do something similar.  We can't leave her with anyone and go on vacation.  If company is over she's in a room by herself.  She cannot be anywhere near my cats. If I take her to my parents she's separate from everyone.  No dog parks, the waiting room at the vet, all the normal things you'd do with a dog.  The worst is that people don't understand, when I say she isn't friendly, they still want to pet her.  They let their dogs run up to her, "oh, he's friendly".  OK, she's not.  They don't get it. 

And, things happen all the time.  For example, today we are at the park.  Willow is on leash.  Suddenly, a guy running was right near us.  I didn't see him until the last minute.  Luckily, Willow isn't people aggressive--for the most part.  But, he was RUNNING. . .so I paniced. I mean, he's got the whole area, but he's got to run RIGHT by her!  But, still, it's all on me.  She could of very well jumped up and did something or nothing.  She's so unpredictable I can't take chances.  But, I didn't see him.  Stuff like that happens, her leash has broken, I've accidentally dropped it, etc. 

She's a LOT of work and we cannot let our guard down or stuff like a runner is in her face like today happens. 

Sorry, to make this so long but I had a lot of emotions going on reading the attack thread myself.  I can see it from both sides.

sl2crmeg

Sillysally, this is an issue to close for me to answer right now...but I thank you for starting a new thread.

If this thread bothers you let me know and I will ask the mods to close it.  The way my brain is these days if I don't address things as I think about them I end up forgetting about them.  it is not my intention to hurt your feelings or put you on the spot....

It is VERY upsetting to have one of your animals attacked.  I have had it from different angles--I have had other dogs go after both of my dogs (thank God no serious injuries), have a dog that will kill woodland critters/birds, have had my horse attacked by a dog years ago (left with bite marks and a bloody nose), and then had that same horse (while he was no longer in my care) turn around and kill a stable worker's mini dachshund. 

I don't have a lot of time, and I have not read the other responses - but I DO want to respond from the 'rescue' POV here.

We will NOT take in a dog/cat that has bitten a human or other animal. It's a HUGE liability for us to take on such an animal. We have lots of other animals, plus our own safety to think of. We have volunteers and customers in and out constantly. Our dogs are kept in close quarters - and we did have an DA pit bull for a while, and keeping her away from the other animals was NOT easy. We took her in for other reasons (neglect/abandoned/cruelty/etc) and she was a GREAT dog (and is doing fabulous in her home) but she spent a year in a crate with us waiting for that home. And seperating her limited to what else we could help with (she basically had to have her own ROOM, not just crate). Larger shelters can take dogs like this - but we cannot. Human aggressive is not anything ANY shelter will touch - except an animal control facility. Adopting out a know aggressive dog/cat is a court case waiting to happen.

Now. Medical issues depend on money. Sad to say - but no vet gives rescues anything for free. Now - if we have the supplies, I'll take it in and treat it. I have a case of heartworm medication - just waiting for that heartworm positive dog that needs to be surrenered or pulled from a kill shelter. Depending on the medical - we CAN rehab at a lower cost (to us) in a foster home, etc. For instance - I've got a dog with skin, eye and ear infections. easily treated in house - almost done. I've got another dog with a broken leg - not as easliy fixed, and will need some fundraisers before he can have his surgery. Medical assesments are not cut and dry - so often those require a bit of wiggle room. Temperment is much more a big issue.

BlackLabbie

Dog/dog aggression is different to me than dog/human aggression

Yes, of course aggression towards humans is the paramount danger.  But, if you are a shelter or rescue and you adopt out a known dog aggressive dog and that dog attacks and injures or kills another dog, now who is to blame?  The owner who claimed they would never,ever get another dog and then couldn't resist that little Chi?  The shelter or rescue, because they knowingly adopted out a dog that had shown serious dog aggression previously?  That's where owner evaluation comes in as spiritdogs was talking about in another thread/poll.  In an ideal world all rescues and shelters would carefully screen all owners with the best evaluation tools at their disposal.  Where the heck is that perfect world?  Another thing that adopters must consider with dangerous dogs is that the person adopting may be ideal in every way, the perfect home but people's lives are subject to change.  What if the dog must be rehomed?  Back to the rescue if they are extremely lucky or maybe a shelter.  And now you have space taken again by a dog with aggression problems.  And another perfectly nice dog may die because the problem dog is taking up that space.

I am somewhat of a cynic but I wonder how many so called rehabbed dogs stay with their forever homes forever.  Of course that's true of any dog but if the dog is dangerously aggressive, it's potential to cause damage and heartbreak is far greater than the average dog.

DougB

 

 And unless you can guarantee that a rescued dog is safe to people and other dogs, how can you place it in a home. Even with an experienced person , accidents can happen. A dog that is not safe is not worth keeping, and should be either permanently segregated or put down.  To knowingly expose other people and pets to a dangerous dog is criminally stupid.

It's important to remember though, you cannot guarantee ANYTHING about an animal's behavior.  I have a sweet lab that loves just about everyone--even the vet--but i could never guarantee his temperament.  

 I took in a dog, as a foster, once, who was a serious liability. She would attack children, dogs, and men with white hair. She was dead serious, ATTACKING. The dog was already quite old, and only 11 lbs, so I decided to just keep her. She was NOT adoptable, in my eyes. In retrospect, it was wrong, for me to even keep her. She should have been euthanised. She did serious emotional damage to Emma, and Emma should have come first.

I feel like there are SO many wonderful, delightful dogs being euthanised for space that a dog with a serious behavior issue (meaning, to me, that if it slipped out the front door, you could have a lawsuit on your hands) isn't something I'd save. Health issues.... Ya know, there's a dog in my local kill shelter, now, who is an absolute sweetheart, and needs to have his leg amputated. I'd take him, in a heartbeat, if I wanted a little, black Schnauzer. I feel differently about health issues. If they can be fixed, and the dog can live a good life, and someone is willing to take on the issues that go with it, that's GREAT.

Of course, all of that is said from the owner of Emma, the dog who was born in a shelter, with serious health and behavioral issues (who has a bite record, with humans, and isn't great with all dogs, and kills small animals but not cats or Soda the Tiel). I am extremely biased by my experience, and I wouldn't do it, again. I could have had a dozen fosters with the time and money I spent on Teenie Weenie, and she never really had a great quality of life. She was constantly stressing about what was going to "get" her.