To Save or Not to Save....(sillysally)

JackieG

BlackLabbie

Dog/dog aggression is different to me than dog/human aggression

Yes, of course aggression towards humans is the paramount danger.  But, if you are a shelter or rescue and you adopt out a known dog aggressive dog and that dog attacks and injures or kills another dog, now who is to blame?  The owner who claimed they would never,ever get another dog and then couldn't resist that little Chi?  The shelter or rescue, because they knowingly adopted out a dog that had shown serious dog aggression previously? 

I think the owner of the dog- a dog knowing to be dog and/or animal aggressive- who allows that dog to be around other dogs/animals and an attack takes place, then the owner is to blame.

Those who adopt dog/dog or dog/animal aggressive dogs *HAVE* to be extra responsible. Sadly, we all know responsible owners are hard to find!

I distinguish between dog aggression and fear aggression. 

Dog aggression I really don't have a problem with.  I think these days people too often want all "pet" dogs to be buddy buddy with all the dogs at the park and on the streets and that's just not how dogs work.  Take Nikon for example.  He gets along famously with Coke and Kenya, and together they have a tight knit pack (that does have it's own hierarchy), but he doesn't really care for "outsider" dogs.  He has been socialized and trained to ignore other dogs within reason, but a pushy dog getting up in his face had better watch out.  This doesn't really concern me, since Nikon is an intact male GSD bred and trained in prey and civil drive (for those not familiar with "civil" drive, it probably means the opposite of what you are thinking, it means the dog is engaging in a fight with you or about something because you got up in his face and he's not going to back off, he is going to match his level of arousal and aggression to meet yours, and he is not biting or playing a prey "game" like most Schutzhund dogs).  Nikon loves all people and is very social.  But I don't really care if he is borderline dog aggressive, nor will I really do anything about it.  It does not prevent me from having other pets or taking him various places because the bottom line is that *I* am in control and he knows it (he's actually a pretty soft dog when it comes to handler sensitivity).  So as far as rescue dogs, I don't think dog aggression is a death sentance, it's just that it's difficult to find good foster homes and forever homes that are familiar with this and OK with it.

Fear aggression scares me because it can be unpredictable.  Unlike a dog bringing civil aggression, the fear aggressive dog is basically acting out a "fight or flight" response and no longer has much mental control over their actions.  They just snap, literally.  I think fear aggressive dogs need to be places with extreme care and only to very diligent and patient homes because it can take so long to make progress let alone overcome.  I don't know that I could ever 100% trust a fear aggressive dog, even if the dog is my own, and I can't say I am prepared to ever foster a fear aggressive dog.

I think the main problem with all types of aggression is the liability.  The rescue can screen applicants up the wazoo but once the dog leaves, they can no longer control what happens.  If the new owner is stupid and the dog bites someone, that reflects badly on the rescue.  Not to mention in today's litigious society, people will sue over anything.

JackieG

BlackLabbie

Dog/dog aggression is different to me than dog/human aggression

 

Yes, of course aggression towards humans is the paramount danger.  But, if you are a shelter or rescue and you adopt out a known dog aggressive dog and that dog attacks and injures or kills another dog, now who is to blame?  The owner who claimed they would never,ever get another dog and then couldn't resist that little Chi?  The shelter or rescue, because they knowingly adopted out a dog that had shown serious dog aggression previously?  That's where owner evaluation comes in as spiritdogs was talking about in another thread/poll.  In an ideal world all rescues and shelters would carefully screen all owners with the best evaluation tools at their disposal.  Where the heck is that perfect world?  Another thing that adopters must consider with dangerous dogs is that the person adopting may be ideal in every way, the perfect home but people's lives are subject to change.  What if the dog must be rehomed?  Back to the rescue if they are extremely lucky or maybe a shelter.  And now you have space taken again by a dog with aggression problems.  And another perfectly nice dog may die because the problem dog is taking up that space.

These are all good points.  I think in this situation, it would depend heavily on the resources of the shelter/rescue to evaluate the dogs and potential owners.  At some point though, the owner willingly taking on a DA dog needs to take responsibility for themselves.

The other issue is that there are many breeds that are just not made to be friendly to other dogs and i think that's OK.  This is where breed rescues can be a help--people who know the proper temperament of their breed and what to expect.  Personally, I'd be more bothered by a lab with dog aggression issues than say, an Akita with similar hang ups.....

When I first started at the shelter there was a purebred Akita, to date one of the most beautiful dogs I've ever seen.  She was very DA.  She had to be kept in the last run and no one was allowed to walk other dogs past her.  Other than that, she was a total love.  She was used for the demo dog in our training.  The shelter had no plans to euth her and she stayed around until they found someone with Akita experience and no kids.

sillysally

Another thing that adopters must consider with dangerous dogs is that the person adopting may be ideal in every way, the perfect home but people's lives are subject to change.  What if the dog must be rehomed? 

IMO, the "perfect" people who would take on a dog like this know that's it, it's here to stay.  And, if it can't they need to put it down.  There is no rehoming as far as I'm concerned. 

sillysally

At some point though, the owner willingly taking on a DA dog needs to take responsibility for themselves.

I agree completely.  But that doesn't stop people from suing shelters and rescues who adopt out a known dangerous dog that seriously attacks.  It's all about the liability.  Maybe it's just the fear of the liability but I wouldn't want to take on that burden of responsibility.  Find a home for the dogs who have the best chance.

 People should educate themselves about breed traits, etc before getting a dog but how often does that happen?  That darn elusive but perfect world. lol  If only WE could be in charge.  LOL

Liesje

Fear aggression scares me because it can be unpredictable.  Unlike a dog bringing civil aggression, the fear aggressive dog is basically acting out a "fight or flight" response and no longer has much mental control over their actions.  They just snap, literally.  I think fear aggressive dogs need to be places with extreme care and only to very diligent and patient homes because it can take so long to make progress let alone overcome.  I don't know that I could ever 100% trust a fear aggressive dog, even if the dog is my own, and I can't say I am prepared to ever foster a fear aggressive dog.

Absolutely. That is what Emma does, and she has done serious damage (there is a lot more training control, now, and a LOT more management). She has been conditioned to a basket muzzle, and wears it, when she's feeling stressed. She is kept leashed, any time people are around. She has to be kept away from children. She cannot EVER "get out" of the house or yard. It's way more than I signed up for, and as an adult with this history, I wouldn't risk rehoming her. If I were unable to keep her, she'd be euthanised. If something happened, to me, it has been stated very clearly, and repeatedly (and is in writing, in several places), she is to be euthanised. I don't have any problem with that.

 The number of perfect, well behaved, docile dogs in rescues and shelters is pretty low. I have known dogs to be killed in shelters that IMO, would have made nice pets for people. Dogs who bit the vet at take in for example (first time at the shelter) or who snapped when their nails were done. "Liability" is always the excuse used for such things but honestly, sometimes it has more to do with the people at the shelter than the dog in question.

 I placed a dog once that had bitten two people (minor bites) and killed one of my ferrets. I am sure many, many shelter people would be horrified to hear I allowed such a dog to live. This dog was a near perfect pet for most situations though - extremely well behaved, good with most other dogs, easy to live with and very sweet. She took a bit to warm up to strange men but did not behave reactively towards them. The second time was when a neighbor guy was roughhousing with "her" kids, she ran in and nipped him on the leg.

 I had known the dog most of her life and spent a great deal of time around her. The first person she bit was a man who's wife openly told me beat the dog for chasing sheep (this was a herding breed). She was in the back of the van one day, he reached in to get something and she cowered back then bit him. I take full responsibility for the ferret being killed by her - I unknowingly allowed him to slip out of the room and he wandered into the expen with the dog. I was upfront with the people who adopted her  about past issues and they were not concerned about it. They were experienced with her breed and are excellent owners who are very happy with her. It was actually extremely easy to place this dog, I actually had a lot of good, qualified owners interested in her.

 I think you really have to look at the individual dog and not make generalized statements. While some dogs really are dangerous and should not be adopted out, I'm not sure they are in the majority. And it is amazing what a dedicated owner can do with a difficult dog.

 Nipping at a vet, a herding dog nipping a pants leg, snapping the hand that beats you is not the same as biting someone. When a dog inflicts a wound that requires medical attention (not just a cleanup), that is a bite. I wasn't talking about "breaking skin", for what it's worth.  My skin was broken, today, by a Lhasapoo, while I clipped his nails. Two minutes later, he was licking my face. That is NOT an aggressive dog. One of my dogs inflicted a bite, to a face, that required surgical intervention. That *is* an aggressive dog.

ETA:::: Just my opinion, not anything else.  

jennie_c_d

 Nipping at a vet, a herding dog nipping a pants leg, snapping the hand that beats you is not the same as biting someone. When a dog inflicts a wound that requires medical attention (not just a cleanup), that is a bite. I wasn't talking about "breaking skin", for what it's worth.  My skin was broken, today, by a Lhasapoo, while I clipped his nails. Two minutes later, he was licking my face. That is NOT an aggressive dog. One of my dogs inflicted a bite, to a face, that required surgical intervention. That *is* an aggressive dog.

 Most shelters I know pretty much have the attitude of "a bite is a bite". A local rescue turned the dog down in my post saying she would be considered unadopable due to her "bite history".

 There is also a question of circumstances - people can get nasty bites requiring medical attention, even surgery or physical therapy from getting their hand in the wrong place trying to break up fighting dogs, who may not have even realized they bit the person. But I understand what you are saying and I don't think you'd consider that a human aggressive dog either.

 Not really. I've been bitten, breaking up dog fights, before, and the same dog was licking my face two minutes later I find that a fairly good measuring stick, LOL. Of course, any dog that does serious damage needs to be seriously considered, as an individual, even if it's "accidental" damage to a human. The time that my dog bit the trainer, badly, I considered having her euthanised, but decided that I could manage her. She will never, ever be rehomed, though. It's such an individual, touchy thing.

I personally don't have a problem taking on a dog aggressive dog - I have one.

I don't have a problem taking on a fear aggressive dog - I have one.

I don't even have a problem taking on an OCD hyperactive, high prey drive dog with separation anxiety - I have one.

But I am not your average owner. And many of the owners on this board are not average, nor are many shelter/rescue workers. So just because we say, or the rescue worker says "I could live with this dog" or "A dog with these issues would be fine with some work," we have to remember that we are in the minority of people who would want to deal with a dog like that.

stormyknight

 But I am not your average owner. And many of the owners on this board are not average, nor are many shelter/rescue workers. So just because we say, or the rescue worker says "I could live with this dog" or "A dog with these issues would be fine with some work," we have to remember that we are in the minority of people who would want to deal with a dog like that.

 Most shelter dogs are not going to have "bomb proof" temperaments - shyness is a fairly common trait in domestic dogs, dog to dog and/or predatory type aggression is extremely common in some breeds and at the very least, the majority tend to be untrained, unsocialized adolescant dogs. And on top of that, a shelter is a really stressful environment and may led to dogs reacting in ways they normally would not, due to stress. It can be very hard to get an honest idea of how a dog would be in a home based on it's behavior in a shelter. I have known both dogs who failed temperament tests, were deemed "unadoptable" that are good pets (with average owners) and dogs who passed temperament tests without question, were deemed "highly adoptable" but went on to have serious aggression issues.

 My very first dog was a Dobe mix that we got from the local pound as a puppy. We were very much "average owners" - had dogs for pets, idn't do much with them as far as training and weren't involved in dog stuff. I was always very interested in dogs and was constantly reading training and breed books, even at that age.

 I picked this puppy out of the puppies that were there (him and a litter of Golden-y looking mixes) because I liked his looks and he came up to the front of the cage. This pound had no place to interact with the dogs prior to adoption and did not promote adoption. We paid our $12 for a license and took the puppy home. When my dad got off work, the puppy took one look at him and hid - he turned out to be rather shy, especially of strange men. He was sometimes reactive and barky towards strangers. He wouldn't let most people pet him. But I was 11, didn't know any better and was just thrilled to have a dog. I thought he was the best dog ever and I took him all over with me, taught him tricks and joined a 4H dog club when he was about 5 months old. For the first two years I was in that club, he was iffy on letting the advisors or strangers touch him. We failed our first two graduations because he would not do a stand for exam, even on lead. People started warning of potential for "fear aggression" in him. I didn't think much of it though - just kept taking him to class April through Sept of each year and taking him all around the neighborhood with me year round. Our third year in 4H, he won first place in Novice obedience and participated at the State Fair. From that point on, he was a "normal" dog. No one who met him after he was 3 years old could believe he was ever shy. When we moved to a new neighborhood, he wowed the kids with his tricks (the favorite was counting - kids and adults alike couldn't figure out how a dog could do basic math problems LOL).

 Like I said - it is amazing what a dedicated owner can do with even a problem dog :)

AgileGSD

Like I said - it is amazing what a dedicated owner can do with even a problem dog :)

IMHO, problems and aggression are not the same thing.  For example, if MY dog was afraid of someone, she wouldn't bark, she wouldn't hide.  She'd show a full set of teeth at them and maybe growl.  If they didn't back off she'd get really dangerous.  And, I don't like to discuss this part of  her because it plays into breed stereotypes.  And, I don't want people to think that I LIKE that she's this way.  But, that's the difference when I say my dog is aggressive.  I can't even begin to think of an 11-year-old handling her. 

And, everyone is going to have their version of "aggression" or what's a big problem.  I guess this is why the shelters just don't tend to adopt out dogs like this.  How can they expect people to know how to handle whatever dog when we can't even all get on the same page as to what's aggression, what's lack of socialization, what's from emotional trauma, etc. 

willowchow

IMHO, problems and aggression are not the same thing.  For example, if MY dog was afraid of someone, she wouldn't bark, she wouldn't hide.  She'd show a full set of teeth at them and maybe growl.  If they didn't back off she'd get really dangerous.  And, I don't like to discuss this part of  her because it plays into breed stereotypes.  And, I don't want people to think that I LIKE that she's this way.  But, that's the difference when I say my dog is aggressive.  I can't even begin to think of an 11-year-old handling her. 

My pioint was that dedicated owners can make up for a lot, even with a dog who isn't the "dumb and docile" ideal that many seem to feel is the only approrpiate pet for "average owners". I think I did mention that I do think some dogs are unadoptable and if your dog regularly wants to attack strangers, she'd likely fall into that catagory. Although you may prove my point to a degree - as a dedicated owner, I assume you manage her behavior.