Dogs and Heaven

corvus

I can't imagine my animals wanting to be with people. Sure, we fed them and loved them, spent time with them, made their lives happy, but we also prevented them from doing whatever urge took them, and often I was the killjoy, the force to pit their will against, the one thing that could stand in their way.

Me either I know Jewel trusts me and enjoys my company but I'm quite sure her heart's desire would not include me.It would likely include an existence where the words "LEAVE IT" are never uttered

Tena

corvus

I can't imagine my animals wanting to be with people. Sure, we fed them and loved them, spent time with them, made their lives happy, but we also prevented them from doing whatever urge took them, and often I was the killjoy, the force to pit their will against, the one thing that could stand in their way. 

But to some extent the same thing could be said of young human children and their parents.  As kids become adults they tend to develop more of a friendship/peer role with their parents.  But with young children, while the parent is nurturing and loving and teaching them, they're also the disciplinarian, the killjoy, the one who stands in the way of fun and the exercising of free will.  Yet I strongly suspect that young children who lost a parent would want to see that parent in heaven.

apples and oranges, imo. A child is told what heaven is by a parent, or Church figure, and that makes them desire it. Can you do the same to a dog? Make them desire to see you there? Or is that simply the human's want projected onto an animal that has no concept of afterlife or religion?

I can respect those here who want to see their animals post death in some sort of afterlife. But I really have to stop short in thnking the animal reciprocates this and understands the way a human child or teen would the concept of "we'll meet again".

 Even more so, why do we have to be a "killjoy"? Because of incomplete communication. In a world where we all experience perfect communication (we will know as we are known), the word "no" will fall from use entirely. Isn't that the joy that clicker trainers try to convey to those who are really stuck on negative types of training - the ability to communicate without punishing?

rwbeagles

apples and oranges, imo. A child is told what heaven is by a parent, or Church figure, and that makes them desire it. Can you do the same to a dog? Make them desire to see you there? Or is that simply the human's want projected onto an animal that has no concept of afterlife or religion?

I can respect those here who want to see their animals post death in some sort of afterlife. But I really have to stop short in thnking the animal reciprocates this and understands the way a human child or teen would the concept of "we'll meet again".

Why would we have to be able to tell a dog about heaven, or make him desire or understand it in order to go there?  The Bible says animals will be there, and for me as a Christian that's a crystal clear answer (although I absolutely respect others' rights to differing viewpoints based on their own belief system).  Whether the animals will be our current or former pets or not -- I don't know.

As far as dogs desiring to see us if given the choice -- when I go to the bathroom and shut the door, they sure seem to desire to see me on their own volition.

Myra

As far as dogs desiring to see us if given the choice -- when I go to the bathroom and shut the door, they sure seem to desire to see me on their own volition.

Amen to that !!!

Deb W.

This is a very interesting thread; one that I knew would have many differing opinions...and that is very cool.  That's what makes this forum a good place to be.  We can all offer our opinions...as different as they may be; and even learn a few things.

I am a believer in the afterlife.  I have had too many personal experiences not to believe.

Here's an example that you may find interesting as it involves two people with regard to a deceased pet.

We had a cat named Zeke who was indoor/outdoor.  He liked to spend his nights outside and his days inside.  So, it was routine that every evening he wanted to go out for the night.  One night, I had a dream about Zeke.  A very vivid dream.  In this dream, Zeke was playing up a storm...just like a kitten.  Running back and forth and all around having a grand old time.  Happy, happy cat.  I awoke with such the feeling of happiness myself; as it was a most entertaining and delightful dream.  Laying in bed as I awoke and recounting the dream, my husband awoke.  I shared my dream with him.

He told me that he had a dream about Zeke as well.  Which in all honesty was very unusual for my husband.  He rarely remembered his dreams even at the moment of awakening.  But, he told me that he clearly remembered this particular dream about Zeke.  In his dream, Zeke was in big trouble.  He had found himself in the turkey deep fryer which was aflame.  Terrible pain then death.

We were both perplexed that we both had a dream about Zeke the same night, albeit completely different circumstances.  That morning, Zeke was not waiting by the door to come in as typical.  Later in the day, no Zeke.  I searched the property and no Zeke.  He was gone.  IMO, Zeke had come to both of us to let us know that he was in fact gone.  He had shown us in the way we would both (and separately) comprehend.  I am the optimist; and my husband is the pessamist of the family.  So, Zeke showed me that he was happy and OK now.  He showed my husband that he got himself into trouble and had died.

Now, how do we explain the phenomenonal experience?  It was easy for me to explain because I have had numerous experiences of people who have died offering signs of their continued existence.  Our energies continue, IMO. 

Heaven?  I don't know.  Its hard for me to envision a place where our gods reside.  I believe in Mother God as well as Father God.  I believe in angels; I believe in spirits; and guardians.  For me, its all about our energies, our souls and what we are meant to be, to do.

rwbeagles

apples and oranges, imo. A child is told what heaven is by a parent, or Church figure, and that makes them desire it. Can you do the same to a dog? Make them desire to see you there? Or is that simply the human's want projected onto an animal that has no concept of afterlife or religion?

I would have completely agreed with your logic (altho I do believe in an afterlife) UNTIL I lost Foxy.  Now Foxy was 19 -- and you know me well enough to know I'm no more brief with my dogs than I am on here.  Foxy had heard about Rainbow Bridge all the 18 1/2 years he was with me.  When a pack member died I would always allow the others to sniff and check out the deceased and we would then refer to that one as being "at Rainbow Bridge". 

I honestly think dogs have a better concept of "dead" than we do -- it's not emotional for them -- they simply accept SO quickly that Poochie just is NOT in that body any more.  gone.  over.  finished. 

Now they MISS that one.  They grieve.  But somehow they instantly "get it" that the spirit is gone. 

 I've typed out before what happened when Foxy went over the Bridge -- and I think it's germaine here.  But I can tell you at the instant of death, sedated with valium and completely "asleep" SUDDENLY his feet (all four) began to run in place -- he RAN.  This is what I posted about it -- the original post is in the archives and I can't find it:

 http://community.dog.com/forums/p/86174/676386.aspx#676386

I've had many experiences over the years that have formed my beliefs ... but I believe Foxy ran TO his friends.  I think he expected it and saw it.  And I honestly don't think a dog has that much "imagination" to conjure something like that at the point of death.  I do know excitement and pleasure when I see it -- and I do know my vet was totally rattled. 

Myra

As far as dogs desiring to see us if given the choice -- when I go to the bathroom and shut the door, they sure seem to desire to see me on their own volition.

Well, that's not quite what I was imagining. I have to wonder why dogs want to hang out with us. We feed them, we offer them affection, nice things, and security. Presuming dog heaven has all of those things without the human distributor or regulator, why would a dog particularly want us with them?

I look at my pet hare, who is wild and doesn't need me. He knows he doesn't need me. I know he doesn't need me. I have nothing to offer him but my companionship. He is the only animal I've ever shared my life with who I feel values me for myself as well as the things I bring him. But would he choose to be with me if he had the choice? Probably not. He might visit from time to time, but he is his own creature and that is why I am so hopelessly in love with him. That he should go his own way is right. My job has always been to keep him safe and happy and healthy. When he dies he won't need to worry about those things, and so I will wave goodbye to him and thank him for everything he taught me and wish him all the best. I guess this is how I see my role for all my animals. I am a provider, security and safety. Should they no longer need a provider, or a sense of security or safety, then my job is done and I will be happy that they are ready to part ways with me. Maybe they will come and visit, but I don't need them to. That chapter is over.

4HAND

It would likely include an existence where the words "LEAVE IT" are never uttered

I guess until I read this I never realized that I made MY version of heaven HERS.  I guess this above would be hers.  And, mine would be her just waiting at the Pearly Gates for me. 

This is such a hard topic for me to even read about.  The thought of never seeing her, smelling her, hearing her. . .it's unbearable. 

If they have no soul , then I seriously doubt the exisistance of souls in anything.   If there are no dogs in my afterlife then there is no joy either.

Bonita of Bwana

ron2

And, for some reason, they are more comfortable thinking that there is an end to all of this. For they have no proof that physical death is the end.

Oh no, not the end.  The end of that person, maybe, but not THE END.  "Circle of life" sounds so corny, but to me it seems a more elegant explanation of life and death of all creatures.

Life is quite a common thing.  Take how many rats and mice there are in the world.  How many itty bitty bugs, spiders, snakes, worms, maggots, flies....  How many flowers, how many grasses.  How many farm animals die to fill our bellies each day.  Do they ALL have a soul that continues on to a different place?

And what about hell?  Is it only people that go there, or do animals and plants have THAT too?

There are so many questions that seem to have no definite answer, and sometimes, given the person, the circumstance, or the question asked, that uncertainty can be a comfort.... or not.  To put it another way, I ask whether Dad is still around "somewhere", and while I am grieved that there is no resounding "YES and you will meet him again at the proper time", I am also glad that there is also no "NO - all that he was, all that he achieved and all that he stood for is reduced to nothing and you will never see him again."

I knew an old lady once who couldn't grow roses.  She loved roses and she loved her garden, but she had no success with her rose bushes at all.  When her beloved cat died at a grand old age, she buried him at the bottom of the garden and planted a rose bush over him - a last ditch attempt if you like.  Of course it flourished.... have you any idea how much life, energy and nutrition is in a dead animal?  The comfort it gave her that her cat "lived on" in that rose bush was immense.  The literal energy that had kept her cat going had passed into another living thing and kept THAT going.

As a non-religious person, I am definitely on the fence.  In the interim, science doesn't have to be cold, and there are other ways of making death bearable than believing in heaven.

rwbeagles

Make them desire to see you there? Or is that simply the human's want projected onto an animal that has no concept of afterlife or religion?

We are not a religious household at all, but if there IS a heaven and, if, doG forbid, William should beat me to it..... I know for a fact that he would be waiting for me and would want to see me again.  William does not love me, miss me, desire to see me, simply because he has been told to, alive or dead. I don't think the same necessarily goes for animals, though.

Chuffy

And what about hell?  Is it only people that go there, or do animals and plants have THAT too?

If there is a hell (and I'm not 100% sure there is, even though I was raised to believe in it) I have to think that it's reserved for people who choose to do unspeakable evil.  That would pretty much eliminate animals and plant life from that scenario (except for maybe a couple of cats I know.)

Joyce

I believe that when our loved ones pass, their souls remain around us and are free to go where they choose. I don't necessarily believe in heaven, but I do believe in The Rainbow Bridge, it helps me deal with all the horrible things I've seen and brings me comfort regarding my first dog Reilee - I couldn't imagine him being anywhere else.

I also believe in Purgatory after reading Dante's Inferno in high school. I do believe that individuals who do horrible things in life are doomed to an eternity of pain and torment, as it should be, IMO. Particularly those who harm innocent children and animals.

A few months ago I attended a non-denominational service a couple of times with some friends and I really enjoyed it. It was casual and there was even a band, that played rock-type music. It wasn't preachy and they didn't reference God much. If you ask me if I believe in God, I'm not sure. I do know that being with all of those people who were so happy and joyful made me feel great. It was a very positive experience, but I haven't gone in a while due to time constraints.

In the end, I do believe that my dogs and I will be together and that they love and adore me so much that they will want to be with me. I can't imagine it any other way.