Shock Collars: What's Your Opinion?

My opinion (without reading any of the replies yet) is that e-collars are fine for SOME dogs when USED CORRECTLY and as a tool or a backup, not a crutch or primary method of training.  I'm coming from the context of being in a Schutzhund club that has come into the luck of having some very experienced people join recently, one with an amazing, world class dog (the dog went BH to SchH 3 in less than 9 months before he was 2 years old).  Some of these dogs are so hard and so drivey that an e-collar is used as a marker, yes you read that right, a marker!  Not even as negative reinforcement or positive punishment.  I had a trainer put one on me and stim me and at the level used for the mark it felt like a tickle, on one of the girls it did not even register.  Yes, in some cases it is used as backup.  As much as we all like to think we can "100%" train and proof our dogs, they are dogs and at times they can be uncontrollable and unpredictable despite our best effors at proofing and trying not to put the dog in a situation where we lose control.  It happens, and with dogs who are bred and trained to work in drive with more intensity than can be mustered by most of ever members' dogs here combined, there are rare times when the collar is needed for intervention.  I personally have not seen it happen yet and hope it stays that way.  So my opinion is that an e-collar is unnecessary for probably 99.5% of dog owners and their dogs.

FWIW I have two dogs that go to SchH club and I do not own an e-collar and have no plans to use one at this time, but I won't condemn something I have very little experience with based on the opinions of people who also have very little experience with them, or the sort of dogs on which they are used.

 I think they're a useful tool, on the right dog, with a handler who has precise timing and good judgement. I wouldn't use one for either of mine, but that's beside the point. I have a soft-as-a-grape dog, and a terrier who goes into fight/flight ALL fight. It'd be too easy to mess up, and they don't need it.

 That said, I despise automatic bark collars, and feel that they should be taken off the market. I'd rather see debarking used as a last resort than see another dog with serious burns on it's neck from barking through a bark collar battery.

l.michelle

I wasn't saying anything bad or that i despised the e-collars, it just bothered me that they a. used it on the dachshund and b. used it unsupervised with their dog

I especially hate that it is used unsupervised.    How stupid to even have it on if you are not there...unless you are talking about a bark collar....and that I know nothing about.

If an e-collar is used properly.... its not going to hurt.  You start out at a low stimulation, and the first couple of numbers you often don't see that the dog knew it was on.  You are supposed to see a twitch of their ear to know its working.....and eventually if you use the collar with the tone... they get to know that tone and you do'nt even have to use stimulation.   I also do not use mine the way they say...but I don't use mine for training purposes...such as to teach them to come by keeping it on stimulation until they get to you and then turn it off.  I use mine to get the dogs attention when I tell them to come..stop or whatever it is they KNOW but refuse to do.  

Just like all kids don't behave the same..... neither do dogs.  Some dogs like to be obedient...some think its fun to test the waters.......

I think Anne that some people can use the collar and hurt their dog....but some people hurt their dogs in a lot of different ways.  A dog owner that is truely trying to do what is best for their dog...will not hurt them with the collar. 

Chuffy

Well, go get yourself a cute little puppy that grows into a muscular energetic young dog, don't bother to train it and/or give it enough exercise and you might be more likely to end up with such a dog.

Well this might be an example of me...but I have bothered to train him...and I give him lots of exercise...   Sometimes he just wants to do what he wants to do.  And he is big and strong enough to do it.

glenmar

In some cases nothing else works.

THIS is a big statement.   And this is what a lot of people don't understand.  They think that everyone is taking the easy way out...or screwed up...or somehow its their fault.  First of all...................whats wrong with taking the easy way out? Why torture yourself for a year and consequently then torture your dog for that time...when he can learn real fast with a tool?  I know...because it will hurt him. But it doesn't.  Gibby was almost a year old before I ever put his e-collar on him.  He has been trained a lot of ways......treats among them. And when he doesn't care about having a treat....he is doing what Gibby wants to do.   When Gibby wants to jump up on a little old lady.....he is going to...and he knows not to. He knows to sit to get petted......sometimes he just plain does'nt want to....

glenmar

And, yeah, Dyan, I was hoping you wouldn't see this....you tend to get slaughtered in these kinds of threads!

I figured Glenda!   You know,,,it used to bother me years ago....  back then I felt a little guilty.... thinking we did'nt do the correct thing by Ollie.  At that time he is the only one I knew had one.  But now I know better...I see the e-collar on other dogs... and never have I seen anyone abusing it OR their dog with it. I now know its a tool that is very helpful IF needed.

An e-collar is not always used as a last resort.  Plenty of people use them before using something else, it really depends on the dog and what they are trying to accomplish.  So, just as we should not assume that someone using an e-collar is lazy, we should also not assume that e-collars are something you have to "resort" to.  If the reason for using one is because the dog has grown up with no rules or boundaries and is now a 75lb adult dog with no control or manners, then I would say, treat that dog like a 75lb puppy and start from the beginning.  There's no reason to feel you have to resort to an e-collar or prong.  Only use an e-collar because you see the value in using THAT tool, not because other tools have failed or don't seem aversive enough.

 The first dog I ever met that was trained with an e-Collar was a BC that had been adopted from the shelter at 3 years old.  Her owner tried a leash and flat collar first and foremost, assuming that is where to start with all dogs.  Most of us would, but Lucy was terrified.  Far past the idea that maybe she had just never been walked on a leash.  She would cower and shake to the point of frothing and nearly convulsing at the mere sight of a leash.  Her owner never did find out what had happened to Lucy to make her like that, but she still had to get her some exercise.  By the time Crusher and I met her she had been trained on the collar for 3 months and was a happy go lucky dog who got twice daily long walks with no leash.

dyan

Chuffy

Well, go get yourself a cute little puppy that grows into a muscular energetic young dog, don't bother to train it and/or give it enough exercise and you might be more likely to end up with such a dog.

Well this might be an example of me...but I have bothered to train him...and I give him lots of exercise...   Sometimes he just wants to do what he wants to do.  And he is big and strong enough to do it.

I don't think it's an example of you at all.  I think if you think for a few more seconds you will know EXACTLY the type of puppy buyer I was referring to, the sort we frequently complain about...  Such owners are much more likely to have a dog who is out of control.  

I don't really think it's any of my business how other people train their dogs. I would never use a prong or an e-collar. They are VERY hard to get in this country anyway. The vast majority of dog owners over here don't even know they exist. I didn't even know what a prong looked like before I joined dog forums.

I would never use one because I simply don't trust them. I don't trust things that can fairly easily hurt an animal and such a tool has no place in my toolbox whether it is used properly or not.  

Incidentally, I wish we had vaccinations for snake bite over here! The number of snakes that meet an untimely demise because dog owners are terrified of them must be pretty high. I'm lucky because both my dogs are naturally scared of snakes, but I have had the horror of trying to call a dog away from a very venomous and pissed off snake. I really think a really good emergency recall is the best way to go. If only Kivi came running like he used to instead of pausing to have a good think about it! A lot of kennel owners over here make snake-proof fences around their yards.

 I wouldn't use one, but I have 2 dogs with naturally high pain thresholds.  I'd have to turn the stim up far higher than I'd be comfortable with just to "get through", regardless of whether the zap is intended to cause pain or not I think I'd have to make it painful to get the attention of a dog who went head first into a barbed wire fence without yelping.  Neither one of them (even Lumos already) is particularly inclined to show any kind of weakness or discomfort, I can't trust that they would let me know if it were hurting them.

Regardless, with one "will do anything for food" dog and one I am unlikely ever to be able to force into anything, the use of a shock collar is pointless in my particular circumstances.  I'm not going to judge other circumstances, since I've never even SEEN a shock collar being used here and therefore can't judge any kind of effectiveness or how the dog feels about it, I'll just say that with a pet (as in, not working) Labrador it's unnecessary and with a Maremma it's useless.  

Chuffy

dyan

Chuffy

Well, go get yourself a cute little puppy that grows into a muscular energetic young dog, don't bother to train it and/or give it enough exercise and you might be more likely to end up with such a dog.

Well this might be an example of me...but I have bothered to train him...and I give him lots of exercise...   Sometimes he just wants to do what he wants to do.  And he is big and strong enough to do it.

 

I don't think it's an example of you at all.  I think if you think for a few more seconds you will know EXACTLY the type of puppy buyer I was referring to, the sort we frequently complain about...  Such owners are much more likely to have a dog who is out of control.  

Yeah...I know Chuffy. 

I was kind of saying though...that I have been working with Gibby since I got him as an adorable little puppy. I took him to OB classes and continue to work with him. I knew what he would grow up to be size-wise obviously......I sure thought I would have "a hold" on how he acted. WRONG.  He still LOVES to get our goats a lot....just today after work we took him for a walk and he started his "crap" on the way home. He hardly does it anymore...but he still does love to do it once in a while...whenever he gets "the rurge!"  I don't use the e-collar for him on those walks....he probably would'nt listen to the stimulation when he feels like being bad. We found the way to get him home without too much trouble is to just hold his leash close to where its hooked to his collar....then he settles right down. 

But its is "growing up" that is changing him. One day he is going to be a wonderful dog I believe.

Liesje

An e-collar is not always used as a last resort.  Plenty of people use them before using something else, it really depends on the dog and what they are trying to accomplish.  So, just as we should not assume that someone using an e-collar is lazy, we should also not assume that e-collars are something you have to "resort" to.  If the reason for using one is because the dog has grown up with no rules or boundaries and is now a 75lb adult dog with no control or manners, then I would say, treat that dog like a 75lb puppy and start from the beginning.  There's no reason to feel you have to resort to an e-collar or prong.  Only use an e-collar because you see the value in using THAT tool, not because other tools have failed or don't seem aversive enough.

  I had one for Bubblegum because it was a great tool.  She was all grown up when I got her...a strong, powerful full grown Great Dane. Soon after I got her, she got away from me while walking her. She was a show dog...I thought she was a dog that was going to walk WONDEFUL and WITH ME when I got her. Wrong!  After she got away and went after another dog ( just to play but they didn't like her kind of playing ) I was afraid to walk her....and I didn'tfor a long time.   A neighbor down my street which has a Mantle Dane ( and an e-collar when she was young ) asked me where Bubblegum was that he never sees her...and I told him. He said " where is your e-collar that you guys had for Ollie?  ( Ollie was my sons Dane )I told him that I didn't think I needed one for Bubblegum and he reminded me that I probably would never have walked Ollie down the street without one. He was right.  I got one for Bubby. Using it just a very few times... made all the difference in the world for her.  We could walk and enjoy our walk..both her and I.  She was a well trained show dog before I got her....when she came to me...she pretty much took over me.  I might have spent a lot of months working and working with her...before walking. But I got the collar and worked with her WHILE walking.  We hardly ever used the remote, and after a short time often went without it.  How can I feel it would have been better for me to go back to the drawing board and treat her like a puppy and start all over??   Maybe it would have worked...may not...but what I did really did work...and right away.   Why pretend otherwise?

I have worked with Gibson ( without an e-collar ) from the get go...and took him to obedience classes...and continue to work with him.  I do have Bubbys collar...and I am just now starting to use it where I feel necessary.   Yes...it is a very good tool when needed.    

You know..a different neighbor asked me several months ago if I was going to get an E-collar for Gibby. I told him I have one but haven't used it and won't until he is older...and I have worked more with him.  His words were " are you nuts? Why do you think the police dogs are trained with one?  Why wouldn't you use one? "   And really.....its true..... why can't it be a training tool for those that do have dogs that might not be the easiest to train.?  Why spend months and months..... going from trainer to trainer, eventually behavior specialiests?  A lot of you have dogs that have trained beautifully with treats,,clickers etc etc.    but a lot of us don't. 

Again...its our choice.  I am not a bad dog owner, I am not a lazy dog owner....and I love my dog and take care of him as well if not better than most people here.  But yes...I do have an e-collar!

 I agree with you 110% Dyan. 

Any tool we have can be abused.  A flat collar can damage a dogs throat, can end up too tight, can be embedded into the fur and neck and can eventually strangle a dog.  It doesn't happen as often because everyone has a flat collar and almost everyone knows that it needs to be adjusted, etc.

Hmmm...that posted without me wanting it to.  

My point was simply that an e-collar is much more complex to use, and therefore easier to misuse, but if the knowledge is there, and the reward is great, then why not?  If the choice is between a dog getting full exercise, being a part of the family, and living a wonderful life, vs a dog chained to a tree in the backyard or stuck at home forever because its owners are afraid or incapable of taking it anywhere, than is the few days of discomfort not worth it?  

And even the dogs that were worked with using the"better" methods, that would still have to be kept home for a sometimes months before reaching a stage where they were able to handle the distractions that come with a simple walk...why would it not be at least as humane to get them out and trained and able to handle those situations within a few days time?

dyan

Why do you think the police dogs are trained with one? 

Most police departments now do NOT use e-collars, they use positive reinforcement, with mainly tug games as a reward.  And, you may not be lazy, and you may have tried to do the right thing, but had you started in a clicker class when Gibby was 8 weeks old, my guess is that he would be doing what you wanted without any shenanigans.  People wait until the dog is four+ months old because they are afraid to take the dog to class before the shots are completed, but by that age a big puppy has already learned some undesireable habits (such as pulling on the leash) and will still be a remedial training situation, believe it or not.  If you have had three dogs and are still resorting to e-collars, someone has not shown you properly how to train or you did not absorb the knowledge correctly (maybe the person's teaching style did not mesh with your learning style).  At any rate, defending the use of e-collars is something I hate to see because it is borne out of lack of knowledge.  If I can take a supposedly stubborn 70 pound intact hound at age 2+ and teach him to walk nicely, come when called, do tricks, and generally be a pleasure to have around, it is not impossible for others to do it, too, using the same methods - this isn't rocket science, and people need only give up their preconceived notions and really find out how to do it before saying that what they tried didn't work, hence we must resort to the short cut of training by inflicting pain.  You can rationalize all you want, but you are still inducing pain to gain compliance.  And, you are limiting the dog's ability to learn as rapidly because dogs trained with pain aren't as confident at trying new things as dogs that aren't.

huskymom

If the choice is between a dog getting full exercise, being a part of the family, and living a wonderful life, vs a dog chained to a tree in the backyard or stuck at home forever because its owners are afraid or incapable of taking it anywhere, than is the few days of discomfort not worth it?  

If the choice is between a dog getting full exercise, being a part of the family, and living a wonderful life, vs a dog chained to a tree in the backyard or stuck at home forever because its owners are afraid or incapable of taking it anywhere, than is the few months of training not worth it?  Why is it that people CAN learn how to apply an aversive at the right moment, yet fail to learn how to apply reinforcement at the right moment?  I'll never get that as long as I live.  My guess is because the aversive results in more instant results, and the reinforcements take time.  Jesus Rosales-Ruiz has been conducting research that suggests it doesn't take much punishment, and it doesn't take long, for it to blunt the dog's enthusiasm for being attentive to its human, and for learning, for a very long time.  If that research proves accurate, and I suspect it will, I'm not willing to take that chance with my dogs.