Shock Collars: What's Your Opinion?

funny this came up, last week i was having a brief discussion with my co worker when she told me, and tried to defend, her friend using an e-collar on her dog because it barks when they are not home, her dog is a dachshund.  I was pretty disturbed with it, in that they use it on their small dog and unsurpervised.

My parents use GLs on Maddie and Zack while walking them, they don't show discomfort or seem to be bothered by them at all, they are only on while taking them for walks.  I have found it really helps them, Zack especially used to pull badly, but now he walks along nicely, and when he does, he gets a small reward, we are starting to phase out the GLs, because i think they are really getting the idea.  The first few times we used them, they did try to get it off their noses, but soon seemed to forget about it.

Sort of OT....

But, has anyone who despises e-collars even seen one properly, correctly used???

I saw them properly used on a few hunting dogs without any problems at all. Like I said before, they're not for every dog and owner. They should only be used correctly on the right type of dog. And they're not a forever tool.

BlackLabbie

But, has anyone who despises e-collars even seen one properly, correctly used???

I saw them properly used on a few hunting dogs without any problems at all. Like I said before, they're not for every dog and owner. They should only be used correctly on the right type of dog. And they're not a forever tool.

Probably not!

I know that sounds awful...and I don't mean to be an awful person about the E-collar. BUT I too know a ton of people that use them...and not a one of them has a problem. Not a one of them has an abused or unhappy dog.  Not a one of them has a dog that is probably any different than the treat trained dog. Seriously. 

I, on the other had don't see any e'collars at our dog park.  And I see more than a few dogs that are totally out of control...NOT that an e-collar would help or do any differently NOR am I suggesting that these people use one. BUT my point is that a lot of people that would not use one...have dogs that could use some help in the training conversation.

No..it should not be used without training the dog...if it is it probably wouldn't do much good.     We use ours to get the dogs attention RIGHT AWAY when he is not paying attention at all. He knows his commands...and often chooses not to use them or is so excited he doesn't hear them. THAT is when he can be dangerous...to himself and to others as many giant powerful breeds are.  

I wanted to tell Anne..that I have tried the GL and GL Harness to walk Gibby. He  does walk better with the harness than his regular collar, but he still will pull and jump a lot more than he does with the prong. With  the work that we do with him.....he does walk pretty nice more of the time than he did...but he still gets crazy occasionally and the prong is one way I have more control over him.   

I WISH I did not have to use the e-collar ( and really don't use it hardly at all.....) and I WISH I didn't have to use the prong collar....OR the GL Harness....in fact I Wish I could let my dog walk beside me without a leash.....   But at this point in our lives...and in our neighborhood thats not happening.   I do know that all the collars I have used together haven't produced the miserable dog that Gibson was when I walked him just the few times with the Gentle Leader...and none of those collars together have produced the bruise on my dog that the GL did....on his nose between his eyes.  Even the trainer that suggested it for us and helped us with the fit agree'd totally that it was not good for Gibby.  But I do see several dogs at work that come in with them and don't have a problem. BUT I do ask every owner that I can how much trouble it was for them when they first started using the GL.... and I can say not many of them said "oh, no problems at all!"  So how can the e-collar be so much worse than taking days or weeks getting your dog used to the GL?

I wasn't saying anything bad or that i despised the e-collars, it just bothered me that they a. used it on the dachshund and b. used it unsupervised with their dog

l.michelle

I wasn't saying anything bad or that i despised the e-collars, it just bothered me that they a. used it on the dachshund and b. used it unsupervised with their dog

I wasn't implying you did...but that's just my point. Those people w/ the doxie did not use an e-collar properly...also, it sounds like they used a bark e-collar, not a remote training e-collar; 2 totally different tools.

losinsusan

He is so barky in the car on the way to the dog park everyday.  It is excitement.  Singing, whining, spinning and more barking.  Going home he is settled and lovely to hang out with.  Do I punish him for being so happy to be going to his favorite place?  I think it would be so wrong of me to do that.

I think it is wrong to allow such behaviour, which is a distraction to the driver.  I would certainly punish for it, but not using pain or fear.  It is incorrect to assume that punishment must always involve pain or fear.  Sometimes it can be be removing something the dog wants. 

It is also incorrect to assume that an ecollar is always used to punish.  

losinsusan

I might feel differently if I had a dog like some I see that are just out of control all the time.

Well, go get yourself a cute little puppy that grows into a muscular energetic young dog, don't bother to train it and/or give it enough exercise and you might be more likely to end up with such a dog.

BlackLabbie

l.michelle

I wasn't saying anything bad or that i despised the e-collars, it just bothered me that they a. used it on the dachshund and b. used it unsupervised with their dog

I wasn't implying you did...but that's just my point. Those people w/ the doxie did not use an e-collar properly...also, it sounds like they used a bark e-collar, not a remote training e-collar; 2 totally different tools.

It occurs to me that ONE of the problems people who have a problem with ecollars have (still with me?) is that the things are so easy to misuse, so easy to damage a dog with and.... so shockingly (sorry) easy to get hold of.

To my mind, all these anecdotes of the people who use ecollars incorrectly are proof of this.

BlackLabbie

Sort of OT....

But, has anyone who despises e-collars even seen one properly, correctly used???

I saw them properly used on a few hunting dogs without any problems at all. Like I said before, they're not for every dog and owner. They should only be used correctly on the right type of dog. And they're not a forever tool.

Do you honestly think that someone who has studied operant conditioning as long as I have does not realize how each quadrant works?  The fact is that you would walk along nicely and have a great recall too if you realized that you would be zapped if you didn't. And, yes, the correct word is zap, precisely because you would completely ignore the collar if it didn't hurt at all.  After all, it isn't as if you get any reward out of just wearing it.  Most often, owners have little idea whether they have "the right kind of dog", and the proponents of these collars often don't have a clue either, sad to say.  At least when positive training is misapplied, it is not causing irreversible consequences.  These collars, even in expert hands, have been known to malfunction and cause severe consequences - not something I would take the risk of for my dogs, even if I did think they were ok otherwise, which I do not.

But, wait now Anne.  You know that I tried everything available at the time, all suggestions, all the advice, before I went to a prong.  In some cases nothing else works.  But, I very much agree an aversive tool should be a last resort.  It certainly was with us.

And, yeah, Dyan, I was hoping you wouldn't see this....you tend to get slaughtered in these kinds of threads!

BlackLabbie

But, has anyone who despises e-collars even seen one properly, correctly used???

I have, many many times. And I've seen it used even more times incorrectly. I've pretty much seen every use of it I think.

(.....if you consider that there is indeed a proper way to use electricity to teach).

 Before reading the other replies, I'm going to give you my basic opinion.  Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. 

I have one for Crusher.  I use it.  He bounces around when he sees it come out because he knows he's going to get off leash time somewhere.  I figure he can't hate it that much if he gets so excited to see it.  

That said, I believe I did it the right way with Crusher(if there is such a thing).  He wore it for a few days before I ever turned it on.  He's has only been shocked a few times.  He learned very quickly that he was to listen to me even if he was off leash.  He did the clingy dog thing for 2 walks and then he just got it.  It was honestly like a lightbulb went off and he turned into this carefree happy dog that listened.  

The reason I decided to try the remote on Crusher was because he knew how to recall.  He simply chose not to do it.  I knew he knew because on a super long line(100';) he would recall immediately every time.  Every single time.  But as soon as there was nothing on his collar he was gone.  He's a husky and important stuff to some dogs just isn't important to him.  BUT he needs to run.  And my little yard isn't big enough for him to get to full speed even if it was fully fenced.   When we started, we were in the city with a nice park behind us, but still the city.  For his own sanity we had to figure a way to give him some freedom. 

The batteries in his collar have died long ago.  I carry the romote, but it seems to be a visual aid more than anything.  The collar worked for Crusher, but not well enough that he has a perfect recall without it.  I never used it for any other reason.  

After that is all said, I might add that I would never use it on Onyx.  She's way too soft and I think something like that would break her.  Plus her memory is not great so I'd be worried about her forgetting all the time.  

 Now that I have read the replies, I might just make a comment about this.

spiritdogs

After all, it isn't as if you get any reward out of just wearing it. 

I do believe Crusher sees wearing the collar as a means to run loose, off lead and free.  He does not get quite as excited just seeing the regular leash come out(though he does dance for a regular leash too).  So for him, e-Collar = freedom.  Is that not reward?

spiritdogs

The fact is that you would walk along nicely and have a great recall too if you realized that you would be zapped if you didn't. And, yes, the correct word is zap, precisely because you would completely ignore the collar if it didn't hurt at all. 

Ok, but....that isn't how they're supposed to be used. The proper way to use an e-collar isn't to inflict pain, a harsh shock, when the dog does something wrong. You're not supposed to "zap" the dog when it does something you think is wrong.

Properly used, the stimulous is on a very, very low setting and only used to get the dogs attention.

Like I said, they have a place, a small place, with some- not all- dogs.

 A good friend of mine used an ecollar to train her dog to walk off leash. I met her on the street one day and her dog had no leash. She told me because of some major neck problem she couldn't walk on a leash. Apparently she used an e-collar. So I agree with Glenda that sometimes the 'disease' is worse that the 'cure'.

I do qualify that opinion though....more aversive measures should always ALWAYS be a last resort.  In MY case, it was trainer failure more than anything, but he'd already learned how to pull me off my feet and drag me by that point!