Shock Collars: What's Your Opinion?

I don't like them -- but then I don't like a prong either.  Shock collars carry an extra risk tho that I don't like -- rain, a worn collar, or an imperfect one can give a NASTY shock/burn as well. 

I've seen cases where a shock collar simply makes a dog mean ... or smart enough to know when the collar is 'on' and 'off' and it doesn't do a thing to re-train them.  My opinion tho (and most know I avoid most of the training stuff cos I have my own very strong opinions on stuff).

IrishSetterGrl

When I used the GL, walking Riley was a breeze but he was so obviously unhappy that it was selfish and lazy for me to use it.

(emphasis by me) Are you implying people who use those tools are "selfish and lazy", too? 'Cause that's sort of what it sounds like, even though you said you don't want offend or judge anyone.

I have successfully used a prong on Apollo to teach him to heel. I've also successfully used c/t to teach him to "watch me". I used regular old treats, no clicker, to teach him to "sit", "crawl", "down", "paw", "other paw", "roll over", etc. He already had a good recall, but I reinforced it with c/t.

Personally, I would rather a properly used e-collar vs. a GL, anyday (though I never used an e-collar). I don't like them (GL). I tried one on Apollo and he cried/screamed/yelped, pawed at his face, his ears were back, his tail was between his legs, he was crouched...yes, it was properly fitted, I didn't even hook the leash on it. I immediatly took it off him and never did that to him again.

Back to the prong...Was he miserable whenI put a prong on him? Nope. He was happy, wagging his tail, eager to go out (and he gets a long leash walk 4x a day + off leash trips everyday, sooo...he wasn't happy to "just get out";). Did I abuse it? No. Did I use it everyday, all day, forever? Hell no.

I walk a few dogs that were trained with an e-collar. Do I use it? Nope. Do their owners still use it after the dog was trained? Nope. Are they very well trained? Are they happy? Do they play? Yup, you bet. Could they have been trained with something else? Probably, but they're not my dogs (or yours) so I don't judge them.

I think a tool when properly used, on the right type of dog, can help the owner train. An e-collar is just a tool, and any tool is only as good as the person using it.

And, FYI, it is NOT meant to zap the dog at a high voltage when the dog does something wrong. Same with a GL, you don't jerk the dogs head with it. Same with a prong, you don't hang the dog with it. If a tool is abused...well...it's the person using it who's wrong.

I honestly do not this there's any single "good" or "right" method of training. Whatever works for you and the dog is...what works!

I don't like them either.  No a prong isn't a great tool, but there are cases when it's essential, as it was with me, since absolutely nothing else worked.  For the record, I tried it out on ME first, and I don't have the thick double coat that Thor does.

In general, I do not agree with using any aversive tool, but, I never say never because there can always be exceptions to the rule.  However, NO tool should be purchased with the "always and forever" idea.  A tool should help you to train your dog and move on without the tool.

 In general, I think they have a place, just like prongs and similar, but it's a VERY small place and not something I really want available to any member of the public coming in off the street.

E-collars I'd consider for life or death circumstances where other more dog friendly techniques have been tried and failed, but ONLY when used judiciously and appropriately (with prior training to teach the dog what to do when the collar is used). 

(Likewise, I use prongs on dogs that find no-pull harnesses a challenge to confront, head halters are a tramatic experience, and who otherwise would be pulling their owners everywhere, thereby putting themselves and others at risk.)

Electric collars have their place in dog training, IMO.  Used properly by an experienced person  they aren't designed to inflict pain and dogs trained properly aren't cowed and the relationship between dog and owner is not harmed.  It's all about using a tool properly.  No one has to use any tool they feel is harmful to their dog, it is entirely a matter of personal choice. 

I have thought about e collars recently since it seems like more dogs have them on at our dog park lately.  And I do have to say that the dogs that do are very dominant dogs and very head strong with their owners.  The owners didn't jump to do this right away either.  But the dogs are just so darn unruly and boy what a difference with that collar on.  When the owner says NO, they usually listen now without even a warning tone.  They learned.  Most said once was all it took for the zap and now just the tone works.  That being said.  I do not have that kind of dog.  I have a very soft dog, submissive generally and I feel I will do more damage if I had tried the e collar for his barking in the car.  He is so barky in the car on the way to the dog park everyday.  It is excitement.  Singing, whining, spinning and more barking.  Going home he is settled and lovely to hang out with.  Do I punish him for being so happy to be going to his favorite place?  I think it would be so wrong of me to do that.  I am too soft to use one!  I gave up on the gentle leader for his leash pulling also.  He hated it.  Ruined our time together.  So I just deal with it.  I am that sort of person I guess.  I understand someone who feels the need to use the "zapper" but it isn't for my breed or my dog.  This discussion was on my irish setter forum recently and it is banned in so many countries in Europe.  I might feel differently if I had a dog like some I see that are just out of control all the time.  Luckily my dogs are usually on the calmer side.  They grow up in a quiet household with quieter people and I guess just get with the program.  .

losinsusan

Most said once was all it took for the zap and now just the tone works.

I understand someone who feels the need to use the "zapper" but it isn't for my breed or my dog.

That's not at all how e-collars are properly to be used. They're not a "zapper", or to be used as a harsh shock correction.

Just so I know, what breed would you consider an e-collar right for? IMO, there isn't a certain breed that should be trained or not trained with an e-collar. That decision is up to the owner, (experienced) trainer (which, IMO, is necessary w/ an e-collar), and based on that individual dog and what they're training for; what they're trying to accomplish. Like another poster said, there's a place for them....a small place.

Okay...Glenda...you were probably hoping that I did not see this thread!

But I did!

Okay.... here it goes.  NO ONE loves their dog more than me. NO ONE would hurt their dog less than me. But I have an e-collar for my dog. And I have a prong collar.  And I have a no pull harness. And I have a regular nylon collar. I use each one when needed.   It seems that Gibby walks the best with the prong now. He doesn't pull half as much with it.  I mean half as much as he pulls with the nylon collar. Moral of that story is...he probably can hurt his neck MORE with the nylon when walking then the prong.

The E-Collar does NOT cause the problems that people like to say they do. Oh..they might work in reverse on some dogs...but the burning and all that is not true if used properly. Maybe a long  time ago when they were first out...I don't know. The one I have won't add the stimulation for longer than a few seconds and THAT is when its on continuous.   When you have a big dog that could pull you anywhere he wants to go...you better have complete control with something.   Now....I hope to get to the point that I never have to use it....but I will use it until we do. The e-collar is a wonderful tool.   For the most part.... when Gibby has it on...and Bubby before him..... almost NEVER do you need to use the remote after the first time. As was mentioned above....some unruly dogs are obedient when they have the collars on. 

It would be wonderful if all dogs were gentle and well behaved. But they aren't. In the real world...some dogs just aren't like we would like them to be.  Some get excited and do things they might not do if they didtn't get so excited. Some could hurt themselves...or hurt others. THATS when the e collar becomes a good tool.

Now...talk about collars that hurt------------------------------------the Gentle Leader!!!  Gibby STILL has a bruise on his nose from using the wonderful Gentle Leader.....and he only wore it a few times.   Believe me....I would rather use an E-Collar than that GL any old day of the week.

At work...when someone walks in with a prong collar or even an e-collar..it does't upset me because the people are truely trying to control their dog. However...people walk in with a chain choker....and I shutter.

I wanted to add about the GL....Gibby had it only one week. We went on about 2 or 3 walks with it on. He never pulled me with it on....his bruise came from him trying to get it off.  The last time I walked him with it on,,,he spent the whole entire walk with his head between my legs trying to rub the darn thing off.  If he walks with the e-collar on....he doesn't even know its there.

I don't care for e-collars. 

I have seen them used properly, & I do recognize that they can be an effective tool in some situations.  I have the belief that they should be used as a last resort, not a "normal" way of training.

Currently, I am considering enrolling Shooter in a snake aversion class.  He has a very reliable recall, unless there is a snake in the area.  If there is a snake around, he is on a seek & destroy mission, & he ignores me completely.  He has went into the lake to catch & kill a snake.  Today, he killed a coral snake during a hike.  At this point, there is real concern for his safety, so I may have to use an e-collar.

BlackLabbie

IrishSetterGrl

When I used the GL, walking Riley was a breeze but he was so obviously unhappy that it was selfish and lazy for me to use it.

(emphasis by me) Are you implying people who use those tools are "selfish and lazy", too? 'Cause that's sort of what it sounds like, even though you said you don't want offend or judge anyone.

I wanted to pop in real quick to respond to this. Looking back on the part I wrote that you emphasized, I can see how someone could be offended by what I wrote.

Let me clear it up a bit: I knew my dog was really unhappy when I was using these tools and continuing the use of the GL or choke chain would be a,) selfish of me because I would be disregarding his feelings, and b.) lazy because *I* honestly was hoping for a quick fix to his pulling, hoping the GL/choker would "cure" his pulling.

It was just a statement pertaining to how I personally was handling things.

Amanda, I have done a lot of snake aversion training and it is not foolproof.  Many dogs, especially high prey drive dogs, do not respond by backing off the snake.  It is completely individual based on the dog.  It's also very important that the peson with the transmitter has superb timing.  I don't do this sort of training anymore and I also don't take my dogs to snake aversion clinics either.  I vaccinate against rattlesnakes.  If I used an e collar on Twister, my JRT, he would never back off a snake because he was shocked, that would spur him on to kill the snake that "hurt" him.  My dog Belle would most likely react in the exact way. 

E collars are not magic wands that make basic training unnecessary.  Many people think that the e collar will allow them to short cut training but e collar training has a proper protocol and if you just slap a collar on a dog and start using it improperly, you are in for problems.  There is no magic tool that makes training a dog faster or allows you to not spend the time teaching your dog.  This is not directed toward anyone here but is just my opinion on why many people should not use e collars.

IF e-collars  are used properly I don't have a huge problem. I think a lot of people think you simply shock the dog everytime it does something bad and eventually they'll learn, that could be inhumane since the dog wouldn't have a clue why it's getting shocked. With a PROPER training system, I think they can be a valuable tool for some dogs. I agree, it's the minority. Sometimes, I'm really suprised just how many dogs at the dog park are wearing them and the owners don't seem to be holding the transmitter. I would think it would be uncomfortable for a dog to be wearing it 24/7?

I use a prong collar with Sophie.  If she has her regular collar, she pulls to the point of gasping for breath. With the prong collar, it's a conditioned response with her and she doesn't even attempt to pull if it's on.  Even when she did, she appeared FAR less uncomfortable with the prong then when she pulled with a regular collar. There was never any yelping or signs of being in pain, she would just slow down. 

 I have a BIG problem with e-collars.  I get tired of posting all the reasons why they suck, but suffice to say that I see a lot of dogs damaged by them, and have paid attention to the literature which shows that they are not the most effective and lasting method of controlling dogs.  These are just two sites with some of the information on the nay side.

http://www.hollysden.com/say-no-to-shock-collars.htm

http://www.baddogsinc.com/nscclinks.html

Lillian, I'm sure she WAS more comforable being pricked than choked, but just because a dog doesn't yelp doesn't mean there is no pain (dogs are mostly stoic, which is nature's way of keeping them safe from other opportunistic predators when they are injured) - pain is the principle upon which prong collars work.  Did you try an Easy Walk or Sporn Harness first????  

Not for me, or any dog I work with. That's all.