Shock Collars: What's Your Opinion?

Correct, not all police dogs and very many sporting dogs are not trained with e-collars.  IMO, the best candidates I know of for e-collars are top level sport dogs who are so drivey and intense they would actually not make very good police dogs.  They are hard, dominate dogs with little or no "off" switch and have lost the calm and clear-headed intensity and instead are basically frantic in their work.  I see such a dog train in front of my own eyes.  To me, it is amazing and sad at the same time.  I could never own a dog that I could not keep with me in my home.  The dog trains and works in such a heightened state of drive and intensity, I'm not even sure the e-collar would stop him.  But, these are the sorts of dogs that many of the top sport people want to train and work with.  Getting extremely good results requires an extreme temperament.  This dog wears and e-collar for training and gets a low level stim as a marker.  Same concept as a clicker, but because of the nature of the sport, there is often some distance involved so a click or a "yes" is not sufficient.  An e-collar may be the best tool for this dog but keep in mind he is not a pet, he would not pass a CGC.

spiritdogs

people need only give up their preconceived notions and really find out how to do it before saying that what they tried didn't work, hence we must resort to the short cut of training by inflicting pain.  You can rationalize all you want, but you are still inducing pain to gain compliance.  And, you are limiting the dog's ability to learn as rapidly because dogs trained with pain aren't as confident at trying new things as dogs that aren't.

Anne..you know I love and  respect you ..... but I still have to say..... inducing pain   is not what is happening for the most part with a trained e-collar.  YES they feel it...and your right to say if they didn't it wouldn't train the dog.  But pain is not the word I would use for a half of second.  As was stated above, starting at a low stimulation is a feeling...its not pain. YES it can be turned up...but again...dog abuse is another subject...and can be applied to many conversations.

I have not had 3 dogs on an e-collar. I had other dogs and never had an e-collar. Ollie had one but he is not mine, and I had nothing to do with training him. I  never had one until Bubblegum....    I took one dog to training when my kids were little....and not another until Gibby. When Sammy went to school...it was the "jerk the chain choker-heel"  kind of class...thats what most did at that time.  I took Gibby to the positive treat class. Maybe he would have learned differently had I taken him earlier....but most don't go earlier...we need to talk about the ones that don't!  The trainer I took him to is great with Danes..know a few people that went to her.....one is now a service dog.  And NONE have the personality of my Gibson.   

 I may one day get an e-collar for Bugsy so that he can be off leash near water - he is a hard, driven, powerful dog and thus far breaking through around waterfowl as been unsuccessful.  Back in the autumn he BROKE a prong collar during a training session in which we were trying to desensitize and get him to relax near the waterfowl.  He went from sitting calmly, surveying intently, to bang - prong broken open and off he went.  For the record there was no mark on his neck and he is very short coated and he has no aversion to the prong collar.

To me an e-collar would be a less painful experience than breaking through a prong collar.  No food, toy, human, noise, etc. is going to regain his attention or prevent him from locking on to the goose.  And yes we have worked with an excellent trainer on this to no avail.  He will play along until he decides he has had enough of your game.

He is trained on an e-fence so well that he doesn't need the collar on - no matter the distraction (included going after feral cats).  This was not accomplished by 'zapping' him.  He did get buzzed a couple of times (when he would knowingly run through it to play with the neighbor's golden) but never indicated it hurt (yes I tried it and it felt like a shock you get off a carpet), nor frightened him. And that was more than 2.5 yrs ago, he has heard the warning sound but he knows his boundaries and is content in them.

And you do not need to inflict pain via the buzz to 'get through' to your dog - in our case the sound or in the beginning the buzz was essentially a long distance correction - just like hitting the end of a long line and getting reeled back in.  However if you use the long line with Bugsy (as we did for ages) expect to have finger, hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder and neck problems along with causing him more damage than a little carpet shock LOL.

There are no-shock shock collars that emit sound or vibration or both and that is what I would look into.  Sometimes I think it is very easy when your dog is soft or average sized or handler focused to think these tools are horrendous.  They might be in the wrong hands - and I think no -bark collars are terrible.  But e-collars on the right dog with good training are an awesome tool.

Dyan I understand 

Good point Dyan.  I had someone put the e-collar on me and stim me (not on the lowest level) and it was not painful, it was a little tingle.  I was expecting something like a carpet shock and it was nothing like that, in fact it was more of an intriguing feeling, not pain.  One person couldn't even feel it and needed it up higher.  I've also had a prong put on just to see and I felt the prong more, but neither was what I would say painful.  Of course I'm not a dog so what do I know, but my dogs will wrestle and play-fight each other until their paw pads are raw and would chew a bone until their gums bled if I let them.  To me, the easy walk harness pinching across my chest would probably be more painful than the low-level stim.

kpwlee

Dyan I understand 

Thank you! 

 I do sometimes feel  bad that people I respect and know so well here ( even though I don't know any of them REALLY ) (including Anne) probably like me a little less for my thoughts on the e-collar.. but I honestly do believe with all of my heart that they are not what most people make out to be.  I think for every one dog that might have a problems of one kind or another on the collar there is 25 that don't. My own statistic of course....but I don't know any dog personally that has a problem because of an e-collar...and I know a lot of people that use/used them.

 I agree that the shock is not painful.  Not in the sense that I've ever used the word.  To me its more like when you hit your funny bone but much more localized and it stops as soon as the stim is stopped.  And yes, I tried it on my throat.  Uncomfortable, yes, but not painful.

spiritdogs

Lillian, I'm sure she WAS more comforable being pricked than choked, but just because a dog doesn't yelp doesn't mean there is no pain (dogs are mostly stoic, which is nature's way of keeping them safe from other opportunistic predators when they are injured) - pain is the principle upon which prong collars work.  Did you try an Easy Walk or Sporn Harness first????  

 

No, I did not try an Easy Walk or Sporn Harness first. I'm not sure if it's because she  has a massive double coat (or the fact that her regular collar provides a barrier since I don't take it off when I use the prong collar) that maybe the prongs aren't even touching her skin, therefore causing more of a  pressure then pinching, but the prong collar really really doesn't seem to make her unfomfortable. When she hears me pick it up she comes running over,tail wagging, knowing it's time for a walk.    Even when she did pull, she was never gasping for breath with the prong.  I never used it by jerking the way many people do, it was never "heel" then a jerk, I've never jerked it at all.  It was simply that if she pulled, the collar tightened, then she'd stop pulling.