First bitch? Maybe!

The K9 is 99.9% likely to be a working line dog, so two very different styles ^_^

I made a phone call because I've not heard anything

Why do the most important questions take the longest time to respond to?

Xeph

I'm sure you don't mean to be AgileGSD, but you're coming off a bit condescending.  I know my Shepherds and am involved in both German and American lines.  I cannot find a west german dog I like...the drive and temperament may be there, but I don't want to live with a camel.  Breeding out the rear is a lot easier than breeding out curvature in the spine.

  Certainly not my intention. I'm just speaking from experience as I have had German showlines and American line GSDs and also enjoy performance stuff. Speaking from a performance standpoint I would take a dog with a slight roach back over one with excessive rear angulation/leg length. Having a slight roach back never affected my German showline dog's performance but having too much rear did cause problems for my American line boy and quite a few others I have personally known. My Amline girl is actually quite moderate - I took her to a SchH club and the TD there kept asking "Are you sure she is all American lines?" because he didn't feel she looked like other Amline dogs he had seen. Her structure is nice and very functional (even at that she has a looseness that the German line girl doesn't) but she just doesn't have a lot of drive or desire to "do stuff". She is extremely clever but her temperament reminds me more of a Northern breed than a GSD.

 Of course, it isn't as though the only choices are extreme roach backed German showlines or far-too-much rear Amlines. There are working lines too, which is what I would go with if I get another GSD. If what you tend to like the most are the German/American crosses, why not get one of those as a foundation bitch?

Xeph

I want to show in AKC conformation and AKC events.  I cannot afford to show in the SV ring, nor can I afford a 6 hour drive 2 times a week to train for the required SchH titles, and I won't send my dogs out with handlers.  I handle myself.  I don't like how the dogs in the SV are presented either.  I've been to a few of the SV shows, and very rarely do I see any real gaiting...just dogs straining at the lead to see who tires first.  I can spend the same amount of money showing in three or four AKC events as I can entering ONE Schutzhund trial or Sieger Show.

 Well there have been German and German/Am crosses that have finished in AKC ;) I suspect if it is just a conformation "title" you are after, the USA/SV shows would work out to be far cheaper in the long run. I have dumped a ton of money into showing my dogs in AKC conformation to get them finished and they are a much "easier" breed than GSDs for owner-handlers to be successful with. UKC is another conformation option, depending on where you live. Not that I'm trying to talk you out of AKC showing - I wish you the best with what you are trying to do :)

If what you tend to like the most are the German/American crosses, why not get one of those as a foundation bitch?

Because puppies are what is for sale, and I feel much more comfortable buying a female that is near adulthood, has her ears up (with no assistance), and has her OFA Prelims done, rather than getting an 8 week old puppy for $2000 and worrying about her ears standing, and worrying about her bite, and worrying that she'll stay put together as she grows.

UKC is another conformation option, depending on where you live.

I don't like UKC personally....they put up dogs that are obviously pets in all lines (not all the time, but they do), and I don't like that.  To me that's not a sign of quality.

Well there have been German and German/Am crosses that have finished in AKC

I know there are....Darby Dan's Just Jack, Darby Dan's Eve, Amari's Bandit of Broadcreek, and Leah v Nadelwald come to mind

Speaking from a performance standpoint I would take a dog with a slight roach back over one with excessive rear angulation/leg length.

But again...curvature of the spine is MUCH harder to breed out than an elongated stifle.  On top of that, even if you can make the roach disappear in a stack (which is nearly impossible for a lot of these dogs), they still roach in motion...and it's hideous :-/  IME some of the German dogs have just as hard a time.  I watch some in agility and they "bow" over the jumps instead of extending outward because their backs can't straighten out.  That causes just as much as a time issue on the course as too much rear.

They're not all that way, but I want a dog with no roach at all.  That's more bothersome and an obvious fault to me than other things.

 

Xeph

I don't like UKC personally....they put up dogs that are obviously pets in all lines (not all the time, but they do), and I don't like that.  To me that's not a sign of quality.

 AKC conformation is pretty well controlled by the show breeders and not so much by the breed standards. GSDs are a perfect example, since the dogs who win in the ring generally don't look much like the dog in the GSDCA's own illustrated standard. Not to mention all the political stuff - handlers are put on dogs to get wins, judges are picked or avoided to help get wins, pet dogs are entered to build points and also not-so-ethical things as well. Even if judges don't agree with the current trend in a breed, if they go too far against what the show breeders are pushing as correct they stop getting entries and assignments. Not sure what that stuff is a sign of but it isn't quality. And I have certainly seen poor quality dogs winning in the AKC ring too.

Xeph

But again...curvature of the spine is MUCH harder to breed out than an elongated stifle.  On top of that, even if you can make the roach disappear in a stack (which is nearly impossible for a lot of these dogs), they still roach in motion...and it's hideous :-/ 

 When you say German lines, you are just talking just about German show lines, which are the ones where the roach back is a widespread fault. Breeding German show to German show will pretty guarantee you'll get roach backs. German show to American or German working is a bit different though and I have seen dogs of those crosses and/or their offspring without the roach back. German working lines do not have a widespread issue with roach backs.

 

Xeph

IME some of the German dogs have just as hard a time.  I watch some in agility and they "bow" over the jumps instead of extending outward because their backs can't straighten out.  That causes just as much as a time issue on the course as too much rear.

Jackie, I saw your thread on the other forum.  I hope this bitch works out!  If her temperament is what you want I bet the breeder will be very pleased that you will title her.  The lines are not my cup of tea and I know nothing about them, but most importantly YOU know what YOU want and have your reasons. 

I also appreciate that you are interested in crosses.  I know many breeders of any line shun do any sort of crossing and I think that's a real shame.  One of my favorite dogs that I know as far as looks/conformation happens to be a working line/American show line cross (and oddly enough or not, he looks more like a German show line than anything.  When I found out his breeding I was totally shocked).

I already know how hard it is to find a dog that so closely fits your ideal and I have not been involved in this breed nearly as long as you.  Both of my GSDs are compromises one way or the other.  When I was picking a dog before I got Nikon, I chose what I thought would be the best fit and while I can easily pick out various aspects of the conformation that I personally would prefer to improve on, I have no regrets as far as the dog's drive, temperament, and health.  I have some of the same criticisms of the German show lines and that's where I ended up, lol!  But I like the UKC ring, I think the SV shows are a blast, and I want to dabble in SchH so it was the best fit for me without spending years trying to find *exactly* what I want as far as conformation.  At this point I have little interest in breeding dogs so I can compromise on some aspects of conformation as long as I feel I'm getting what I want for a sport/performance dog, so I am lucky that I don't need to be as thorough at this point.

AKC conformation is pretty well controlled by the show breeders and not so much by the breed standards.

I can say the same about the German show ring....

Not to mention all the political stuff - handlers are put on dogs to get wins, judges are picked or avoided to help get wins, pet dogs are entered to build points and also not-so-ethical things as well.

True...but considering I've just started SERIOUSLY showing, I'm still going under judges that have never seen me or heard of me...and I'm consistently beating professional handlers because I have a nice dog.  There're politics in all rings.  Sucky, but true.  Politics be damned, I like showing in AKC.  But maybe it's because I'm walking into different breed rings under judges that have never met me or seen myself or my dogs and I'm winning...and I'm winning over people with equally nice dogs that have been doing it longer.

you are just talking just about German show lines, which are the ones where the roach back is a widespread fault.

Yes, I am, because there is absolutely no point mentioning the working lines in this context.  The working line dog would stand NO chance in an AKC venue.  While the West German showline would fare much better, under certain judges I could probably secure a second in class or even a Reserve...the working line will be last every time.

I know many breeders of any line shun do any sort of crossing and I think that's a real shame.

I concur.  Darby Dan and Victory have had some nice crosses :)

I already know how hard it is to find a dog that so closely fits your ideal and I have not been involved in this breed nearly as long as you.

Tell me about it...it is BEYOND frustrating >.<  Something I've learned is that you're always sacrificing one thing for something else....as is the way with breeding and showing

Xeph

 

Yes, I am, because there is absolutely no point mentioning the working lines in this context.  The working line dog would stand NO chance in an AKC venue.  While the West German showline would fare much better, under certain judges I could probably secure a second in class or even a Reserve...the working line will be last every time.

  I took 1st place at a large AKC show (speciality weekend for GSDs but this was the all-breed show the moning before) with a German working line bitch puppy in the 6-9 class against Amline puppy competition. There are some working line dogs that I think could have a chance at doing decently in the all-breed ring. I think they'd be a good option for German/American crosses too, since they don't tend towards the roach back.

 I'm pleasantly surprised to hear you haven't had any problems getting points and majors on your GSDs. Maybe it is the area but even well known breeders around here rarely show their own dogs and owners of show GSDs are told to get a handler when they want to "seriously show" (and most don't have success until they do). I can't think of any owner-handlers, nice dogs or not who have had an easy time getting points or especially majors on their dogs. I don't personally know of anyone who easily finished their owner-handled GSD in a short period of time in my area. Could be where I live though, as there are a lot of show GSD people around here.

Oh no...no no...we have no majors.  There has been ONE major so far this year.  I won an open class of 8, beat Kent Boyles and Diane Brown in that class, got into Winners Dog....and was DUMPED for something absolutely NOTHING like what the judge had been putting up before!

Kent went Reserve!  EVERYBODY was upset and said my dog should have won.  I do not mind losing to a nice dog, but this dog wasn't it.

I can say that so far my crowning achievement was taking in a Vizsla for a friend, getting him his first BOB placement, and then taking him into group and getting a G3 xD  Judge didn't know me from Adam, and she put up good DOGS, NOT just faces (G4 was a new person to showing...they had a nice Chessie).

I do agree there are some nice working lines that could do ok here (OMG the Salztalblick dogs), but do you really think they'd sell one of their best dogs to an American who wants to show AKC conformation?  Really?

 I think just about every breed has the working vs bench dogs.  It's unfortunate... and you just have to do what YOU think is best while upholding both the standard of the breed and health of your line.... the rest is going to be up to the Judge and dog on the day.

 I hope it works out, it sounds like you've given this bitch a lot of thought and she's obviously what you are looking for.  Have you seen her in person?

 

No, I've not seen her...for all I know, she's sold.  The breeder hasn't responded to me.

 Have you spoken with her at all, or was this the first contact?

 You would think even if she had found another home she'd have replied to your email -- she maybe just busy, it was a weekend, she could have been away at a show?

 I got my bitch sight unseen (photos only) but on the word of 3 breeders about what she was her strenghts and faults, she's already finished, so I knew at worse it wasn't going to be too bad. Turns out they were very truthful and she's a very nice bitch, and words do not do her movement justice!  But, without people I trust.... this would have been a leap of faith I'd have been very uncomfortable with.  Would you be going to see her in person?

Called and e-mailed again today....I was apparently the "last to inquire".  I don't really believe it, but I'm happy to get a response.  She is still available, but others are also interested, and they and their handlers are making trips to see her.  I did make it clear that I'd also like to make the (10 hour one way) drive to see her in person.

I can't trust a breeder to send me a sight unseen dog not because of conformation, but temperament.  What I consider good temperament and what they consider temperament could be two different things, and that is not something I'm willing to compromise on.

Xeph

Oh no...no no...we have no majors.  There has been ONE major so far this year.  I won an open class of 8, beat Kent Boyles and Diane Brown in that class, got into Winners Dog....and was DUMPED for something absolutely NOTHING like what the judge had been putting up before!

Kent went Reserve!  EVERYBODY was upset and said my dog should have won.  I do not mind losing to a nice dog, but this dog wasn't it. 

 UGH! That is one reason that AKC showing has gotten to be so frustrating for me. Judges just have to point, they don't have to give anyone a reason why they put one dog up over another and most times, exhibitors are left wondering what the judge liked or didn't like about their dog. It'd be near impossible to go to written critiques for AKC showing but I do wish that judges would all at least explain their placements. Course that doesn't help when what the judge liked about the dog was handler...

Xeph

I can say that so far my crowning achievement was taking in a Vizsla for a friend, getting him his first BOB placement, and then taking him into group and getting a G3 xD 

 Nice win - congrats!

Xeph

I do agree there are some nice working lines that could do ok here (OMG the Salztalblick dogs), but do you really think they'd sell one of their best dogs to an American who wants to show AKC conformation?  Really?

 The Salztalblick dogs are nice. Not sure about if they'd sell one to an American looking for a conformation dog or not to be honest. I think it is a situation where it never hurts to look into things if you ever decided to go that direction. Also worth checking out would be American breeders who have those lines.

  Good luck with the bitch - hope it works out for the best either way. And I agree, I would want to evaluate temperament in person. There are some breeders that I would trust for that but breeders who only show and have only ever shown in conformation honestly don't tend to know what to look for as far as drive, focus, trainablity and the such goes. If the dog seems friendly or at least doesn't get aggressive or overly shy, it has a "good temperament".

UGH! That is one reason that AKC showing has gotten to be so frustrating for me.

Tell me about it :-(  There are lots of truly worthy dogs that are either never going to finish or will take FOREVER to finish because of a lack of majors, not a lack of quality in the dog.

This year there will be a total of 3-4 Majors in Wisconsin.  The first one already passed at West Allis....

The only other majors:
Waukesha (MAYBE!)
The Two Days of the GSD Specialty in West Bend

We have trouble getting enough dogs together for two stinking points....2009 AKC Point Schedule was just posted and the @*#$&(@#*& count for Wisconsin went UP!!  Can you believe that?!

2008 a 3 pt Major took 11 and 14....2009 it takes 13 and 17!  Are you kidding me?!

Not sure about if they'd sell one to an American looking for a conformation dog or not to be honest.

If I told them I wanted to do AKC performance I'd probably be ok, but if I mentioned conformation I am 99% sure they would never respond to my inquiries again.  For one of their dogs to do well in a show ring here would be an insult.  It's too bad really... P a s k a Salztalblick could have done well here in everything I think

By the way, to help you understand my confusion

Winners Dog:

Reserve:

Justin: