First bitch? Maybe!

    • Gold Top Dog

    First bitch? Maybe!

    There's this bitch that has been for sale since around Thanksgiving.  She is drop...dead...freaking...gorgeous with a pedigree to DIE for.  22 months old, OFA Prelims done and CLEAR (OFA Good Elbows Normal), ears up and firm, great personality, a little extreme in the rear for my taste but could be taken to something less extreme.  Elegant, a little light on bone, but she is, again, proportionate, nice neck (maybe a little long).

    Long story short, this bitch that started out at Beer$2500[/b] around Thanksgiving is now being offered for NO money exchanged.  All the breeder wants is for her to be SHOWN and either have someone handle another bitch for her for a few shows, or ONE breeding back on THIS particular bitch.

    For you Shepherd people:
    She's a Rolf daughter, Dallas Granddaughter.

    Linebred on:
    [url="http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/451366.html"]Proven Hill's Banker of Altana[/url]
    [url="http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/519392.html"]We Love DuChien's Matthew[/url]
    [url="http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/519402.html"]Kismet's Sweetheart Deal[/url]
    [url="http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/524882.html"]Jo-San's Enterprise[/url]

    I can post a pedigree if anybody is interested.

    The bitch in question:
    [img]http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/Xepherya/Sabrina1.jpg[/img]

    Here she is when she was first offered for sale:
    [img]http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u222/Xepherya/Sabrina.jpg[/img]

    • Gold Top Dog

     WOW, she is pretty! I agree that she's more extreme than *I* like, but I think she'd show well, and you'd have a good time with her. She's definitely nice to look at. Does she move well? Do you think.... when her chest drops a little, and she thickens up... that neck might not look so long.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Here's a head shot:

    She does have a rather long neck, but part of it looking as long as it does is the placement of her chain.  It "breaks" the flow so you think "is she a giraffe?"  I think that when her chest drops and her ribs spring it'll look better...the thickness will help her look less willowy.

    If I get her, her name is changin' xD

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     She does still have a lot of puppy look. I love my toy dog, who, at 14 months, is done, LOL. I can definitely see her filling out and being knock you out gorgeous. She is quite pretty, already, and it looks like she's at least lead broken and knows how to be handled, so that's nice.

     

    So, what is the terrible call name? LOL

    • Gold Top Dog

     Sabrina >.<

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    She is a pretty show GSD - post her pedigree if you get a chance!

      As for getting her or not, only you can know that. I will say that the rear angulation issue is more of a concern than if you like the look of it or not. The excessive length of the rear legs will cause performance issues and will affect her athletic ability to some degree. Not sure if you do agility but dogs with rear structure like her's tend to have a very hard time with jumps, to the point where they may not be able to do agility or may not be able to compete at full height. I have known several people who had to give up on titling their Amline GSDs in agility because they couldn't even get them to jump preferred height consistently and I know at least one dog who's obedience career was cut short for the same reason. It wasn't that these dogs didn't have the mental ability to do the sport - they were willing but not physically built for it. My Amline boy was such a dog - very willing to work but jumping was really hard for him.

     Another factor is that dogs with such angulation tend to also have loose ligaments. IME the extreme angulation can be bred away from very easily - nature tends to favor moderation, so if you don't select for the angulation it goes away within a generation or two. However, if there is also an issue of loose ligaments that seems to be harder to select away from. I have seen a lot of Amline GSDs who were very moderate but still had very loose movement due to poor ligamenation. The bad rear movement going away seen in many specilaity dogs is IMO most often caused by ligament problems, as these dogs have similar rear movement without the angulation. That of course, will also impact their athletic ability and may continue to pop up generations down the line and be harder to breed away from.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pedigree:
    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/597997.html

    My concern isn't her angulation.  I know that will limit her somewhat.  What I want to evaluate through working with her in obedience, agility, etc is her drive, nerve, and overall temperament.  I show in just about everything, so I know what I'm looking for where.  If I get an e-mail back I'll be making a 10 hour drive (one way x.x) to see her in person and evaluate temperament, personality, movement, and ligamentation.

    The bad rear going away is caused by both loose ligaments AND over excessive rear.  Even if the dog is firmly ligamented, they'll still go "all over" because things don't match.

    If I can go see her and she has proper temperament and drive I can work with, I'll take her in spite of that rear.  Why?  Because THAT is something easy to breed away from and I can get what I want in 2-3 generations...what is hard to find in these dogs is good drive and overall temperament.

    Forgot her head shot:

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I read through everyone's comments, and though I don't really understand any of the technical stuff, I think she is gorgeous!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Xeph

    If I can go see her and she has proper temperament and drive I can work with, I'll take her in spite of that rear.  Why?  Because THAT is something easy to breed away from and I can get what I want in 2-3 generations...what is hard to find in these dogs is good drive and overall temperament.

     I am assuming you are set on just getting Amline dogs, since it is pretty easy to find a GSD with good drive and solid temperament in other lines. Is there something that makes you think this bitch will have a good working temperament? Her lines are fairly typical Amline stuff - no titles at all in 3 generations other than AKC CHs. Even if she herself has a really good working temperament, it is hard to tell what is in her pedigree and what she will produce. Selecting for working temperament can be very frustrating in a show-bred breed/line and even harder when the dogs don't tend to have proper structure for the job. Are you looking to get this bitch as a show dog/brood bitch and hoping she will produce puppies with functional structure for performance? I guess I am unsure what you are looking for, since you said you realize her structure will be an issue with performance but also said you "do everything" with your dogs and know what you are looking for.

      As for the ligaments, I have seen moderately angulated dogs who move as loose as some of the extreme dogs and that is due to the ligaments. Some of the rear movement is cleaned up without the angulation but the looseness really isn't. It is interesting because the ligament issue seems to come with excessive rear angulation but it doesn't seem to go away with it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm sure you don't mean to be AgileGSD, but you're coming off a bit condescending.  I know my Shepherds and am involved in both German and American lines.  I cannot find a west german dog I like...the drive and temperament may be there, but I don't want to live with a camel.  Breeding out the rear is a lot easier than breeding out curvature in the spine.

    I own a German dog, great drive, great temperament, conformation isn't the best...he's not noticeably roachy until he moves (ew).  I also show an American dog with nice angles that isn't over done or loose, also good temperament and drive, but a bit stupid...and I've shown a cross line that had nice firm ligaments but was a bit too short backed and long in hock...temperament is good, drive is good, too smart for his own good :p

    I want to show in AKC conformation and AKC events.  I cannot afford to show in the SV ring, nor can I afford a 6 hour drive 2 times a week to train for the required SchH titles, and I won't send my dogs out with handlers.  I handle myself.  I don't like how the dogs in the SV are presented either.  I've been to a few of the SV shows, and very rarely do I see any real gaiting...just dogs straining at the lead to see who tires first.  I can spend the same amount of money showing in three or four AKC events as I can entering ONE Schutzhund trial or Sieger Show.

    Are you looking to get this bitch as a show dog/brood bitch and hoping she will produce puppies with functional structure for performance?


    I'm hoping to get a little less rear and some stronger temperament as I progress.  I actually like the Germerican (German x American) crosses...seen some really nice stuff come from it and eventually would like to do some crosses.

    I know the differences in my lines and what is coming from where.  If the bitch doesn't have a temperament that is up to par, I won't take her, but I do know what I like and don't like in all lines of Shepherds.  I am more forgiving of something like excessive rear than I am of a dog with a hump in his back as long as the temperaments are correct. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     The books I've read and mentors I've spoken with have all said (Ok, not all... but, general consesus :) is that you get your foundation bitch for her pedigree and what she brings, not necessarily a TOP WINNING DOG OF ALL TIME... and from there, cross in and create whatever it is YOUR goal is.. which could be that TOP WINNING DOG. 

     I'm in a similar position, in fact, my (potential) foundation bitch arrives today!  ... I'm dying. As I'm sure you'd understand, excited, nervous... all of that.  Anyway, she's got the pedigree I want (SO in love with it!), and the general structure I want... but, as with any dog, she has a few faults that I'm hoping to improve on.... which, is the whole point, right?  Health? Great!  Temperament? Great!  Confo? Great!  Huntability? Great!!  -- I'm happy to have the opportunity to take a mature bitch (so I know how she finished) and hope that with the right stud, she'll produce even better.

     I say, it sounds like a great deal... make sure you are comfortable with the terms (co-owning? What exactly does the contract say...?) I know you know that... I "knew" it too, but recently it's truly hit home you need to know these people and all the expectations that come with it.  Talk about the stud-dog that she'd want to have used for a pup back... all of that, if you "assume" anything it could get very, very, VERY messy later.  So, take all your questions back to her and spell it out in black and white.

    Other than that, I think she's a very pretty bitch, lots of rear, though.. you're right.  But, from what I've been hearing and understanding, it's true, easier to fix a poor rear than a poor front.  Although, I'm sure there are people who think her rear is to-die-for :)  At 22 months should her chest drop more, or how would you feel about her if she kept her front, in weims at 22 months you pretty much have what you have at 22 months, is why I ask.  Personally I prefer a longer neck than a shorter one and she's got a very sweet eye/expression.

    I wish you luck... I think if your gut says "do it"... do it :)

    • Gold Top Dog

     Oh!! And also spell out what happens if she is sterile... if that's the reason you're getting her, this would obviously be important.  lol

     I can't believe I forgot to say that.

     I know you know all of this, I also know we have about 100 times the lurkers that we do have posters... so, I wanted to mention that, too.

    • Gold Top Dog

    In GSDs full development of the chest generally does not occur until 3-4 years of age.  Some males take as long as 5 years to fully fill out.  The breed as a whole is slow maturing.  For 22 months she's pretty, but I can tell that she's not "done".

    Her ribs haven't sprung...chest looks to be down and looks nice, but she hasn't opened up through the rib, and probably won't for another year or so.  The lines she carries have good chests, so it's not a concern of mine.

    And you bring up good points Sera_J :-)  All things I've been thinking about.  Chances are that I won't keep a puppy from the litter the breeder wants (if this bitch comes to me at all) because I wouldn't care for the style of dog she took her to.  I'll be looking at the contract upside down and backwards that's for sure, and making sure she can whelp a viable litter (at least 2 live puppies).

    • Gold Top Dog

    STUNNING I did caps because she really is awsome in my untrained opinion.

    • Gold Top Dog

    WOW---just wowowow.  She is beautiful!

    My neighbor just got his K9 a couple of weeks ago.  He reminds me a LOT of her (he is a different color).  He is beauitful, but I like her looks MORE.