The joys of breeding-flame suite ready

    • Gold Top Dog

    The joys of breeding-flame suite ready

    So a recent post was deleted because it was off topic in a thread. Since it was a reply to a post I wrote supporting spay/neuter of an intact pet I thought it would be fun to weigh in on the subject.

     I am in full support of spay/neuter of a pet quality dog. Defining a pet quality dog to me would be one that had a slight flaw maybe miss-marked, straight shoulders, roached back, hocky rear, under/over shot as some examples. Sometimes it is a perfect to the standard dog who just happens upon a fabulous home.

     As a breeder, most responsible breeders only breed when they have a need for a breeding specimen or need a new show dog. I'd say in this day in time the show/hobby breeder might make up 25% of the breeders out there these days.

    Not everyone should be a breeder or attempt to breed a litter, not every *potential* breeding dog should be bred BUT we are out here trying to do the best with the dogs we have and have ability to use. Health testing and pedigree research surely will help to "see" what you should be producing but mother nauture and the good Lord sometimes have other ideas.

    Being a breeder has it's fair share of heart aches and many people can't bare it. I for one have seen more then I'd like to have seen in my 18 years. From closed rectums, dead pups,fading puppies, cleft pallets and mitral valve issues. We are not God. We try to do our best but of course sometimes our best isn't good enough. This happens in nature as well, as they say only the strong survive, well the strong, ethical, responsible breeders survive the same way.

    Of course there are the arguments that if breeders didn't breed the shelters would be empty and all the shelter dogs would have homes. PETA's newest campaign is that for every pure bred born another shelter dog dies. Well if every Tom, *** and Sally would figure out that they needed to spay/neuter their PET quality dog and not breed so little mary and Johnny could witness the miracle of birth and leave the breeding up to those of us who have dedicated our lives to improving the breed we love, maybe, just maybe then the shelters would see a break...of course I can't forget the *Designer* breeds...we all know where that fad had taken the shelter/rescue world.

     

    So ethical breeders unite, why do you do this??? What do you expect to get out of it?

    Pet owners why would you do this? What do you expect to get out of it and how ready do you think you might be for it?

    • Gold Top Dog

    amstaffy
    Pet owners why would you do this? What do you expect to get out of it and how ready do you think you might be for it?

    I'm going to give my answer.  But, first I want to say Willow has been spayed for years. 

    But, there are often times when I think about her and what she means to me and how someday all I'm going to have are memories and pictures.  And, that's it, she will be completely gone. 

    If I was to breed her, although I wouldn't have her, I would of had a part of her.  And, I could raise it up right, make it's life all Willow's couldn't be because of her poor start.  I don't know, to me it would be sort of a tribute. 

    Maybe this is all silly but it's what my reasons would be--it wouldn't be about money or showing or anything like that.

    Of course, with no breeding experience other than watching a few litters be born to someone else, I wouldn't be ready for any part of the breeding or welping.  I'd have to find help for and with that.  I'd definately make sure that Willow was going to be as safe as possible thru all of that.  Luckily, chows aren't known to have very big litters either so that would make finding homes for all of them possible. 

    Those are my thoughts.

    Lori

    • Gold Top Dog

    amstaffy

    So ethical breeders unite, why do you do this??? What do you expect to get out of it?

    Pet owners why would you do this? What do you expect to get out of it and how ready do you think you might be for it?

    Maybe I'm having a *brunette moment* here (haha), but am I understanding your question correctly.....do you want to know why breeders breed? Or why spay/neuter?

    Waaahhhh....I'm confused! CryingStick out tongue

    • Gold Top Dog

    amstaffy

    So ethical breeders unite, why do you do this??? What do you expect to get out of it?

    Why? sometimes I wonder. Sometimes the barbs, negativity, and judgements are too much for a person. Sometimes...I don't think I'll be hanging in there much longer. I know...downer...but there it is.

    Expect? I expected to breed some nice dogs, have some nice wins, improve some things on the dogs I started with, stand behind my dogs...and I have done all that. So I guess I just also expected it to be less hard on my wee mind and spirit.

    On the whole it's helped me grow as a person...but that is always a rough ride.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lori,

     I think your reasons are like so many others. You have the best dog you've had in your lirfe and you think "WOW! If I bred her/him I'd have a younger one just like him/her and then when he/she is gone I still have the pup. BUT you took it one step further, you recognized that it wouldn't be the same but part of Willow! GOOD JOB!!!

    She's you're great dog but sometimes that doesn't mean they should be bred. I have dogs here that are fantastic dogs who haven't been bred nor at this point will they ever be bred. I have three girls getting scheduled for spaying. Two have not been bred and one has. They will live the rest of their life out without hormones and I'm sure will be happier for it. Of course I do have two other girls who are staying intact, one who is showing and another tha her co-owner might be breeding in the next two years. Both breedable girls are pending results of their parents for canine ataxia testing. Should they be positive they too will be spayed and my Am Staff breeding will be done.

     

     

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    BlackLabbie

    do you want to know why breeders breed? Or why spay/neuter?

    Waaahhhh....I'm confused! CryingStick out tongue

     I want the "breeders" here to tell why they do it, their reasons. I'd also like to hear why some pet people on the forum feel they should be able to breed and they feel they will get out of it

    • Gold Top Dog

    rwbeagles

    Why? sometimes I wonder. Sometimes the barbs, negativity, and judgements are too much for a person. Sometimes...I don't think I'll be hanging in there much longer. I know...downer...but there it is.

    Expect? I expected to breed some nice dogs, have some nice wins, improve some things on the dogs I started with, stand behind my dogs...and I have done all that. So I guess I just also expected it to be less hard on my wee mind and spirit.

    On the whole it's helped me grow as a person...but that is always a rough ride.

    True, true, true..we wear a cross because we have such passion for our breeds. The snide, rude remarks can be hurtfull from those who have no idea the time and energy we put into our dogs. Pedigree research, health testing, showing to validate our breeding stock and the sleepless nights many of us spend till our pups hit that golden point where we know they've "made it".

    Some time ago,lets see maybe 10 years ago, I was having a conversation with the man where we bought our dog food from. He and his wife owned a boarding kennel, belong to an all breed club and raised bassetts. He told me that if you stay in this for 5 years you're in it for life! I my friend am a lifer! I'm dowen sizing to smaller dogs as I am not getting any younger but I will stand up and be counted when it comes to my rights to be able to work to support my dogs, my hobbie and my passion...I say BRING IT ON!!!!!

    • Gold Top Dog

     Someday I may breed dogs, but the breeding parentswould be of **REALLY GOOD** quality, such as Awesome health, rock solid temperment, and a purpose/job to fill that a crossing of the said parents might provide a dog who could fulfill it better then many other living dogs. My standards are pretty high, so dog breeding is more of a dream for me. lol

    • Gold Top Dog

    amstaffy
    True, true, true..we wear a cross because we have such passion for our breeds. The snide, rude remarks can be hurtfull from those who have no idea the time and energy we put into our dogs. Pedigree research, health testing, showing to validate our breeding stock and the sleepless nights many of us spend till our pups hit that golden point where we know they've "made it".

    Bold added by me.

    I am not a breeder, have never bred a dog and never will but have raised a few litters of pups whose dams came to me pregnant.  Found homes, blah, blah.  I also encourage, in fact preach spay/neuter to lots of people.  BUT and here is the BUT the above quote I pulled is my epitome of someone who HAS to keep breeding dogs.  If people like you don't continue, the breeds we all love may be gone someday and then we will all suffer. Fight on, I'll hold your asbestos suit. LOL I gather you are some sort of forum troll or something but I'm not afraid and am groveling for favor in the hopes that you will continue to post pic's of your dogs.:)

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm likely not the best person to answer, since I'd never breed. I love my breed too much to chance goofing something up. Mine is a breed where doing something halfheartedly could really cause them harm temperament and healthwise. I don't show, nor compete seriously in any working or performance events, so there's nothing I could do to further the breed.

    I've never had the desire to breed any of my pets.  I love my pets dearly, but I'd never want to breed them just for that reason. Aside from genetics, their offspring would not be them.    No guarantee that they'd have the same look, temperament, or any characteristic at all of my beloved pet.  I also always find joy in opening my heart to another pet and embracing their unique personalities.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    amstaffy
    Well if every Tom, *** and Sally would figure out that they needed to spay/neuter their PET quality dog and not breed so little mary and Johnny could witness the miracle of birth and leave the breeding up to those of us who have dedicated our lives to improving the breed we love, maybe, just maybe then the shelters would see a break...

     

     I can't help but hear a bitter tone in this line of thinking.  It sort of has an I'm not only better than you, but my dogs are better than your dogs, elementary school chant to it.

     When it comes to breeding and what should be bred, at the end of the day it is all subjective.  One man's mut is another's Lassie.  Even fanciers who spend decades dedicated to a breed can't always agree with what they like in their dog.  So often the dogs in show rings are prone to morphing through the years in relation to what the latest fad in style is, and many could never do the job they were intended for. 

    At the end of the day, most people who purchase dogs in the U.S.A don't go looking for a hunting dog, or one to herd their sheep, no, most people simply want a pet dog who can help wear out the kids and let them know when someone is at the door.

     So, why shouldn't Sally get a chance to breed Fluffy if Fluffy has qualities she thinks are worthwhile to celebrate and keep?  Perhaps the pups will have a higher chance at having health problems, but that doesn't mean their lives and the lives they touch will be any less miraculous and that they will love and be loved any less.

    This isn't to say I don't love breeders who spend their lives perfecting their lines.  I think it is important to celebrate and keep the many unique breeds alive.  I got Kirby from a breeder who would be considered a responsible breeder by many on this board.  At the same time however, I don't think that means the average person and dog should loose the right to breed or be scorned for their choice in the process. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    OK, I'm a "pet" person I guess but hang out at shows and with breeders Smile  I've never bred animals, don't want to even consider it for at least ten years.  I am intrigued by the process but prefer male dogs at the moment and am not really a "puppy" person.  I simply don't have the time, money, or space and don't foresee having those resources for years and years (I want to start my *own* family at some point). If I cannot do it right and hold myself to my own high standards, then why even try.

    I spent about two years looking at a few breeds I was really interested in.  I've always wanted Malinois but decided to start with GSDs.  I did not want to start with a puppy because honestly I didn't yet know exactly what I wanted, so I opted for a spayed adult female from a breeder.  If I had chosen blindly for myself, I would have wanted a large, dark, heavy boned male, but the breeder matches based on lifestyle not looks and I ended up with a small, light, fine boned female, lol.  Green handler, not so green dog.  We have taught each other a lot.  She had some temperament issues and needed a soft, female owner/handler who could start from scratch.  Her mind goes a mile a minute, her need for mental stimulation is greater than that of physical exercise, so I basically signed up for the "beginner" level training classes of whatever I could find - rally, CGC, agility, obedience... Our first year together we completed 8 new titles/certificates.  With Kenya I learned so much about what my strengths and weaknesses are, what I really am looking for in a dog.  After a long break to deal with some random health issues and to just chill out and have fun, the goals for this year are RE, FO, OB1, and BH. 

    By being invovled in training clubs and trials, I got to meet more breeders and GSD fanciers.  Most importantly, I got to SEE the dogs, see them show and work.  Instead of just picking a type of GSD, I could pick out lines and breeding programs I liked or didn't like.  I decided to get Nikon because his breeding is a combination of three of my favorite dogs/lines (Kirschental, Quenn vom Loher Weg, Kevin von Murrtal).  I watched the bitch work, talked to other people that have spent considerable time with her and many other dogs and got their opinions.  Temperament was my #1 criteria.  I also wanted a decent amount of drive (a dog with good drives is actually better for a novice handler) but not something over the top.  I was a little hesitant b/c I could not meet the stud b/c he is in Germany but based on what I heard I took the gamble and got Nikon.  He is ending up being the pick male of his litter as far as conformation and drive.  His breeder matched based on the temperament of the dog and knowing my lifestyle and how I handle dogs.  Also he just kinda picked me (walked up to me and stuck with me).  We did evaluate their conformation and movement but at 8 weeks, things can change.  He is turning out really nicely.  The temperament and drive is exactly what I wanted.  I have seen other pups from his litter several times and they are so different, they look relatively the same but I can't imagine myself with any one of them, Nikon was such a good match for us.

    We're doing SchH and conformation.  Other things like obedience, rally, agility...that will just depend on how he turns out as he matures.  Everything will be HOT (owner-handler-trained).  I'm not shipping my dog off to Germany to be titled by judges that can be paid off or go easy on the dogs.  If the dog is worthy of top titles and ratings, then he should be able to achieve them without the political mess.  My goal with him is a V-rating, which implies certain hip score from the SV and to be titled in SchH to a certain level.  I would also love a KKL1 rating for life.  The ultimate dream would be a VA rating, but at that level it can get political and veeeery expensive.  I'm sooooo not into the politics of it, I just look at each dog individually for what it is.  I don't plan to neuter Nikon.  I can't say one way or the other about breeding b/c he is so young, that totally depends on how he turns out as far as conformation, health, drives, and temperament.  So, it's not like we're doing this because we want him to be a stud dog, but maybe...only time will tell.

    Maybe I will breed in a few decades, I don't know.  If I do, it will be mainly to provide myself with dogs I think are valuable for breed preservation.  The standard is open-ended and vague; every breeder and fancier has her own interpretation.  At the very top are many great dogs, and often the differences between them boil down to personal preference.  Right now I see myself just owning a few dogs at a time, spayed females or males, and focusing on the learning process of training, showing, and trialing.  I have some great mentors so if I neede puppy fixes I can help with their socialization or watch a birth.  I don't want that for myself right now.

    I think I have thrown myself into dogs because for decades I was obsessed with gymnastics and when I had to quit b/c of time and money, I looked a long time for something similar to totally immerse myself in.  Finally I have found something that replaces gymnastics for me and is starting to fill that void.  There are a lot of similarities really.  It's cut throat, you either have it or you don't, you work hard for so many years and in seconds, a judge can acknowledge that or take it all away.  I love the pressure and obsessing over every little detail!

    What I expect to get out of it....breed preservation as a whole, and for myself, just the process.  I'm more concerned with the means than the end.  I enjoy the entire process.  I'm not going to shows to plan breedings or select breeding dogs, I'm going to shows because I love training my dogs and doing activities with them.  Nikon's going to an AKC conformation show on Saturday, we have no intention of actually showing in AKC conformation but we're going with a group of people to just hang out and use it as a socialization opportunity for the young dogs.  It's just something to do, really.

    • Gold Top Dog

    amstaffy

    BlackLabbie

    do you want to know why breeders breed? Or why spay/neuter?

    Waaahhhh....I'm confused! CryingStick out tongue

     I want the "breeders" here to tell why they do it, their reasons. I'd also like to hear why some pet people on the forum feel they should be able to breed and they feel they will get out of it

    Ooohhhh, ok. I don't fall into either, so I'll zip it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG

    amstaffy
    True, true, true..we wear a cross because we have such passion for our breeds. The snide, rude remarks can be hurtfull from those who have no idea the time and energy we put into our dogs. Pedigree research, health testing, showing to validate our breeding stock and the sleepless nights many of us spend till our pups hit that golden point where we know they've "made it".

    Bold added by me.

    I am not a breeder, have never bred a dog and never will but have raised a few litters of pups whose dams came to me pregnant.  Found homes, blah, blah.  I also encourage, in fact preach spay/neuter to lots of people.  BUT and here is the BUT the above quote I pulled is my epitome of someone who HAS to keep breeding dogs.  If people like you don't continue, the breeds we all love may be gone someday and then we will all suffer. Fight on, I'll hold your asbestos suit. LOL I gather you are some sort of forum troll or something but I'm not afraid and am groveling for favor in the hopes that you will continue to post pic's of your dogs.:)

    Hi Jackie

     LOL! No I'm not a troll...I'm actually one of the original admins from when Dog.com bought the forums from Jim, the guy who started i-dog and owned the domain name dog.com. I have another job function for Dog.com now so my time here is limited I do try and check in now and again. It ususally happens when there is a problem and I'm notified/alerted by the other mods that they need help..ok, so that is the run down on me.

    Thank you for your support and for working for those who needed your help, BTW I also work in rescue :)

    Come hold my hand...it will be a fun ride and I'll gladly post pics!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Krissim Klaw
     So, why shouldn't Sally get a chance to breed Fluffy if Fluffy has qualities she thinks are worthwhile to celebrate and keep?  Perhaps the pups will have a higher chance at having health problems, but that doesn't mean their lives and the lives they touch will be any less miraculous and that they will love and be loved any less.

    OK, this I do have experience with--a very poorly bred dog.  Yes, I love her and deal with the many health issues she's had, aggressiveness, and behavior issues.  And, I (and I'm not tooting my own horn here) think of myself as a very responsible person, I don't take my responsibilities lightly. 

    But, even I almost gave my dog up in the beginning, not once, but twice.  It took a lot to not let her go--and that just aggression alone.  If I didn't have the money to care for her health all these years, what would I have done???  I thank God I had it.  I think I'm safe in saying most people would not have dealt with her aggression and paid out the thousands in her health care, plus the time to take her to the vet, give medications, etc, etc.  And, she's not alone in this, lots of dogs just like her. 

    So, my point is, the chances of dogs like Willow living the type of life you mentioned is very small-unfortunately. 

    I'm all for people having the "right" to breed their dog.  But, regardless of if they think they've got the best dog out there or not, there is a right and a wrong way to go about breeding.  There are standards and guidelines already set up the AKC and others that should be what people are striving for.  There opinion of what's "great" shouldn't matter. 

    And, we've gotten into many times how dangerous it is to have a pregnant dog and not know what you are doing.

    Sorry, I'm so chatty on this subject.  It's just I'm on the end of the I've got a badly bred dog here and I live it every day.

    Lori