The joys of breeding-flame suite ready

Krissim Klaw

amstaffy

Well if every Tom, *** and Sally would figure out that they needed to spay/neuter their PET quality dog and not breed so little mary and Johnny could witness the miracle of birth and leave the breeding up to those of us who have dedicated our lives to improving the breed we love, maybe, just maybe then the shelters would see a break...

 

 I can't help but hear a bitter tone in this line of thinking.  It sort of has an I'm not only better than you, but my dogs are better than your dogs, elementary school chant to it.

 Nope, not bitter. I'm also not better then anyone nor are my dogs. I do take pride in the fact that I protect my bloodlines, do research, attend seminars and bred VERY selectively ONLY when I need a new dog to show or a new breeding dog. Most times taht equates to a litter every other year except in the case of my last Am Staff litter 8 years apart.

In my original post I asked specifics of a certain group of people, people who are breeders and people who are owners.. I'm not condemning the owner who wants to breed but think about it, how prepared are they? Many times the dogs tie, they have no idea when the bitch will be due (63 day gestation) nor do they know the signs of a problem...those are the people who need to think about what danger they could be putting their beloved pet in. Sure, bad things happen to good breeders too but they do know the signs of trouble and will make the trip to spend $1000.00 for an emergency c-section instead of "waiting because she must be taking a break"

I'm sure there are plenty of pet dogs out there who could be fabulous breeding dogs, it will never be one I produce because anything I don't co-own as a show pup MUST be spayed/neutered because if they are going to a pet home they won't be bred

BlackLabbie

amstaffy

BlackLabbie

do you want to know why breeders breed? Or why spay/neuter?

Waaahhhh....I'm confused!

 I want the "breeders" here to tell why they do it, their reasons. I'd also like to hear why some pet people on the forum feel they should be able to breed and they feel they will get out of it

Ooohhhh, ok. I don't fall into either, so I'll zip it.

Don't zip it...other won't besides you might have a great opinion that will open the eyes of both sides!

willowchow

I'm all for people having the "right" to breed their dog.  But, regardless of if they think they've got the best dog out there or not, there is a right and a wrong way to go about breeding.  There are standards and guidelines already set up the AKC and others that should be what people are striving for.  There opinion of what's "great" shouldn't matter. 

And, we've gotten into many times how dangerous it is to have a pregnant dog and not know what you are doing.

Sorry, I'm so chatty on this subject.  It's just I'm on the end of the I've got a badly bred dog here and I live it every day.

Lori

 

 

I wish more owners would have the ablity to truly look at their situations just like you did and be honest with themselves. Then perhaps more would see for all their dogs good qualities perhaps a trait such as dog aggression just isn't worth the risk.

I suppose the scary thing with producing babies is there is no test, skill set, or even thought needed to do so, and that goes for human babies too.

Liesje

OK, I'm a "pet" person I guess but hang out at shows and with breeders   I've never bred animals, don't want to even consider it for at least ten years.  I am intrigued by the process but prefer male dogs at the moment and am not really a "puppy" person.  I simply don't have the time, money, or space and don't foresee having those resources for years and years (I want to start my *own* family at some point). If I cannot do it right and hold myself to my own high standards, then why even try.

I spent about two years looking at a few breeds I was really interested in.  I've always wanted Malinois but decided to start with GSDs.  I did not want to start with a puppy because honestly I didn't yet know exactly what I wanted, so I opted for a spayed adult female from a breeder.  If I had chosen blindly for myself, I would have wanted a large, dark, heavy boned male, but the breeder matches based on lifestyle not looks and I ended up with a small, light, fine boned female, lol.  Green handler, not so green dog.  We have taught each other a lot.  She had some temperament issues and needed a soft, female owner/handler who could start from scratch.  Her mind goes a mile a minute, her need for mental stimulation is greater than that of physical exercise, so I basically signed up for the "beginner" level training classes of whatever I could find - rally, CGC, agility, obedience... Our first year together we completed 8 new titles/certificates.  With Kenya I learned so much about what my strengths and weaknesses are, what I really am looking for in a dog.  After a long break to deal with some random health issues and to just chill out and have fun, the goals for this year are RE, FO, OB1, and BH. 

By being invovled in training clubs and trials, I got to meet more breeders and GSD fanciers.  Most importantly, I got to SEE the dogs, see them show and work.  Instead of just picking a type of GSD, I could pick out lines and breeding programs I liked or didn't like.  I decided to get Nikon because his breeding is a combination of three of my favorite dogs/lines (Kirschental, Quenn vom Loher Weg, Kevin von Murrtal).  I watched the bitch work, talked to other people that have spent considerable time with her and many other dogs and got their opinions.  Temperament was my #1 criteria.  I also wanted a decent amount of drive (a dog with good drives is actually better for a novice handler) but not something over the top.  I was a little hesitant b/c I could not meet the stud b/c he is in Germany but based on what I heard I took the gamble and got Nikon.  He is ending up being the pick male of his litter as far as conformation and drive.  His breeder matched based on the temperament of the dog and knowing my lifestyle and how I handle dogs.  Also he just kinda picked me (walked up to me and stuck with me).  We did evaluate their conformation and movement but at 8 weeks, things can change.  He is turning out really nicely.  The temperament and drive is exactly what I wanted.  I have seen other pups from his litter several times and they are so different, they look relatively the same but I can't imagine myself with any one of them, Nikon was such a good match for us.

We're doing SchH and conformation.  Other things like obedience, rally, agility...that will just depend on how he turns out as he matures.  Everything will be HOT (owner-handler-trained).  I'm not shipping my dog off to Germany to be titled by judges that can be paid off or go easy on the dogs.  If the dog is worthy of top titles and ratings, then he should be able to achieve them without the political mess.  My goal with him is a V-rating, which implies certain hip score from the SV and to be titled in SchH to a certain level.  I would also love a KKL1 rating for life.  The ultimate dream would be a VA rating, but at that level it can get political and veeeery expensive.  I'm sooooo not into the politics of it, I just look at each dog individually for what it is.  I don't plan to neuter Nikon.  I can't say one way or the other about breeding b/c he is so young, that totally depends on how he turns out as far as conformation, health, drives, and temperament.  So, it's not like we're doing this because we want him to be a stud dog, but maybe...only time will tell.

Maybe I will breed in a few decades, I don't know.  If I do, it will be mainly to provide myself with dogs I think are valuable for breed preservation.  The standard is open-ended and vague; every breeder and fancier has her own interpretation.  At the very top are many great dogs, and often the differences between them boil down to personal preference.  Right now I see myself just owning a few dogs at a time, spayed females or males, and focusing on the learning process of training, showing, and trialing.  I have some great mentors so if I neede puppy fixes I can help with their socialization or watch a birth.  I don't want that for myself right now.

I think I have thrown myself into dogs because for decades I was obsessed with gymnastics and when I had to quit b/c of time and money, I looked a long time for something similar to totally immerse myself in.  Finally I have found something that replaces gymnastics for me and is starting to fill that void.  There are a lot of similarities really.  It's cut throat, you either have it or you don't, you work hard for so many years and in seconds, a judge can acknowledge that or take it all away.  I love the pressure and obsessing over every little detail!

What I expect to get out of it....breed preservation as a whole, and for myself, just the process.  I'm more concerned with the means than the end.  I enjoy the entire process.  I'm not going to shows to plan breedings or select breeding dogs, I'm going to shows because I love training my dogs and doing activities with them.  Nikon's going to an AKC conformation show on Saturday, we have no intention of actually showing in AKC conformation but we're going with a group of people to just hang out and use it as a socialization opportunity for the young dogs.  It's just something to do, really.

 You my friend are on your way to being where I am...showing dogs for me started as a positive family event. Over the years it developed into so much more, fighting BSL, breeding and now myself starting in performance events. I too love the processes, learning and using what I've learned. My involvement has also been obsessed but hey there are other things we could be doing to the extreme.

Have fun Saturday! I'll be driving to VA to show a frenchie and bring Markie out of retirement for a Sunday show ..Good luck in all you do!

I may be a breeder by default. I will do that because my husband and I refuse to give up our bitch for the time it would take to return her for breeding and whelping.   

My primary leisure time activitites involve dogs and dog sports.  I like to compete.  So, I purchase pure bred dogs.  I have purchased two dogs for whom the contracts addressed breeding rights.  The male could be used by the breeder or collected.  The bitch could be bred once by the time she was 5.  Both of the kennels from which I obtained my dogs are in the 20+ year catagory.  One kennel has bred very few litters over the past years (6), the other considerably more but there are two breeders in the kennel a mother and daughter team.  They have produced OTCH dogs, Westminster group placers, service dogs, SAR dogs, and just plain perfect companions for people.  They are active in their breed clubs (as am I).  They are active in their community supporting JQP in dog ownership (volunteer, teach classes, etc)

Both breeders do all health testing and report to perspective buyers all health conditions that are known to be in their lines. 

I dont really make any of the decisions.  I dont pick the stud, I can offer suggestions based on what would be needed to improve on my bitch.  Dont know if my suggestions really offer merit, they will.  I have chosen to do more to prepare for breeding that required.  I have started to work with my vet to learn what I need to know about anything in the process.  I pay for those consults. I have started a library of resources.  I am looking around for the opportunity to assist another breeder prior to whelping. I have gone to a breeding seminar on AI and scheduled breedings (may just consider that).  I have slowly started to pick up things I will need for a whelping kit.  I already have multiple skilled breeders who are willing to come and hold my hand during whelping and my vet will be on stand by.  I am going to use whelpwise (my choice) my cost. I have the procedure for calling in my vet to the house incase of emergency.   All other standard breeding costs (prenatal visits, etc. puppy exams, etc) are paid by the breeder.

 BTW all these preparations may come to nothing if they decided to not act on their option for a litter.

They also vet the prospective owners and standby as first right of refusal.  I will be the second line option.

I figure I will learn a lot.  Be willing to help others and never do it on my own.

Not a breeder myself, but spent my entire life in a breeding home, so I've been down in the trenches, have seen the miracles, have experienced the heart ache, have run the show rings, so I feel I have a good standpoint in the discussion. Been there for the AI's, been there for importing animals from other countries, been there for the eye exams, the xrays, the c-sections if needed, painted the puppy toenails of identical pups, made the puppy slop, and cleaned up my share o' poop! I've seen it all.

I don't plan on becoming a breeder myself in the near future. I have found through my experience that I have a stronger affinity for working with the dogs that don't quite "cut it". One of my girls came from a bitch who died while giving birth. One of the most traumatic experiences I have ever been through. Apparently it was that way for the litter too, as Gaci has grown up to have some extreme trust/fear issues. This also may be in part to the respiratory illness the litter developed at 3 days of age because the litter did not receive the mother's colostrum and had virtually no antibodies. But other than very uniform looks as her mother, she is a good example of "not" breeding because you love the dog you have. Her mother (and father) were the dearest, friendliest, smartest, and most beautiful dogs.  If her mother had have been bred solely for the reason of "I want to carry on this dog's life" as mentioned before, it would have been the best example of how that just doesn't work. Because real life happens in between and shapes the dog into what it will become.

I have an intact male coming to me today. He is being kept intact for another couple of years as he may or may not be used as a stud dog in a breeding program. Even if he is not, unless I am given a medical reason, I will not be altering this dog. He is non-aggressive, non-marking, does not roam, and is healthy. He will never be bred unless to a designated suitor, so I feel no obligation at all to neuter him unless it becomes required for medical purposes. I am a supporter of people making an educated decision and sticking with it, when it comes to spay/neuter. I am not pro-spay/neuter or anti....I am a supporter of educated decisions. If you can keep your animal intact and prevent it from breeding for it's life, I support it. If you decide to spay/neuter, I support it.

Breeding has as many downfalls as it does benefits. There is as much heartbreak as there is happiness. There are sleepless nights, lots of expenses, lots of time, that you really never get back. It's not for everyone, and despite having spent 20-some years in it myself, I don't feel that it's something at this time that I wish to pursue, even though I have the experience and the knowledge. Maybe someday my interest will change, but right now I don't see it. It's more commitment than I could do right now.

I'm against mandatory S&N laws. I do find puppy mills to be cruel to the parent dogs and at the very least unfair to the pups who often don't get a healthy start. But I also support equal rights for all who wish to breed their own personal dogs - purebreds, working mixes, and just plain mutts. No dog is better than another simply based on appearance or how they place in the show ring. I very much support those who breed their own working lines, including those who breed working mutts. 

I would love to have a pup from Tia (if she wasn't already spayed) but what would I do if she had a litter of nine mutt pups? I just wouldn't feel good about adding that many more dogs to the pet population, mutts or purebreds.

I don't breed. Never have. I rescue, and I rescue mutts. Love those mutts!

Why? Personal choice.

amstaffy

...Pet owners why would you do this? What do you expect to get out of it and how ready do you think you might be for it?

The only way I would breed a "pet" quality dog would be if it was an awesome working dog (obedience, agility, hunt, etc), and that would only be if it couldn't be shown in the breed ring for a cosmetic reason- mis-marked, slightly over/undersized, etc.and only after doing the breed suggested health testings.

Oh, I didn't say in my original post that my criteria would be based first and foremost on temperament and health.  For example, I know of a multiple time VA1 GSD who is correct, good mover, beautiful dog, well-liked, successful progeny.....but this dog consistently throws pups with a very dibilitating health problem.  So if I had a bitch I would NOT breed to this dog.  I guess some people don't care, are kennel blind, or they figure "oh well if some pups have this problem, maybe some won't and we'll keep those."  Um, no.  In contrast there is another dog who is often said to be a better mover, correct structure, better work and drives, but he's just not as beautiful.  If I was choosing between the two I would have to choose the latter because while he is not as flashy and pretty, he's not consistently throwing pups with a major health defect.  The dog must be healthy and have the right temperament and drives and MUST be BOTH.  I wouldn't breed the healthiest, most beautiful, most correct dog in the world if he lacked drive.  The drive is what makes a GSD a GSD.  The breed is varied and popular enough that breeding can and should be super super selective.  I show my dog but at this point it's mainly for something to do and indirectly help train and socialize the dog, not for the rating.  I would sooner support the breeding of an un-registered, un-papered dog with excellent hip scores, proven drives and temperament (say, a working police dog with a successful record of apprehensions, drug busts, etc), and correct working structure, than the most beautiful VA German show dog who has poor hips and the temperament of your neighbor's family Golden Retriever.

I am very, very picky.  There is not a breeder I have looked at (must be over a hundred at this point) that I couldn't find at least one thing I didn't agree with or would not have done.  If my best friend was a reputable breeder I would not buy dogs from her just because she's my best friend.  Some of the nicest people I have met at dog shows have been breeders who do things so much against what I believe in I have to distance myself even though they are perfectly nice people. Some of the breeders I like to hang around because I like their breeding programs are people I wouldn't necessarily find myself friends with.  Like some of them, I can't even stand the sound of their voice, lol, but good breeding is good breeding. The bottom line is the DOG.

amstaffy

BlackLabbie

amstaffy

BlackLabbie

do you want to know why breeders breed? Or why spay/neuter?

Waaahhhh....I'm confused!

 I want the "breeders" here to tell why they do it, their reasons. I'd also like to hear why some pet people on the forum feel they should be able to breed and they feel they will get out of it

Ooohhhh, ok. I don't fall into either, so I'll zip it.

Don't zip it...other won't besides you might have a great opinion that will open the eyes of both sides!

Ok, here's .2 cents....

I'm a  pet quality dog owner. My dog is also a rescue. No known backround. He sort of looks like a purebred Lab, but defiantly has something else in him. He had alot of behavior problems when I got him, which are now resolved. But, it took all day every day constant work. I don't know many people that would've kept him after some of the things he did. Today, he's social and trained. I love him. I love his look, his size (110lbs) and his tempermant. Do I think he should ever be bred???? No- never. Just because what would I really get out of bringing  7-10 pups into this world? A boat load of worry! Will the pups be too much trouble for these people? What if one's sick and dies? Etc, etc, etc. Apollo has been neutered since the first week I owned him.

I don't think it's fair to breed poor quality dogs. They really don't have a choice...they just do it. Example: So what if the parents hips aren't tested? Fluffy is so cute and smart! The litter is born and all sent off to homes....and then a puppy ends up with h/d at 2 years old? How is that family going to feel....you know? I wouldn't want that. I wouldn't want to bring sick dogs into the world for my own selfish reasons.

I have bred cockers, and accidentally, Sheba, who produced only Shadow.  I have to say that my thoughts have changed a lot since I've come to this forum.

While I did everything...almost....right with the cockers, I didn't show.  I did have confirmation from AKC judges who were part of my breed club that my dogs were breeding quality, but the politics of showing were not for me.  We produced a good number of show quality dogs, some pet quality, and followed careful standards, but, to do it again?  Nope.

And yep, we need responsible, careful breeders in this world.  The folks who are willing to invest the time, energy and money it takes to keep the breeds true, and maybe make them better.  What we don't need is every tom, penis word and harry breeding randomly.  Those are the folks that cause the overcrowding in the shelters, NOT the responsible breeders.

I don't care to breed, show, or compete.  I just want a companion dog.

Shari, my husky, was beautiful, had a sweet disposition, and was, in my mind, the best little girl doggie in the whole world.  I never once thought of breeding her (she was a mix of Sib. husky/Samoyed) so I'd have part of her when she died because she was unique.  I might have ended up with a puppy who looked like her, but was a completely different dog (as it should be).  I knew I'd miss her, and I do miss her terribly, but neither did I run out and get another husky.  I love the breed, but when I was ready to adopt, I wasn't looking for a husky - my criteria was basically a companion dog, tolerates cats, friendly, maybe of a size to intimidate intruders (I live alone), likes to play.  So I met Bear when I was volunteering at the shelter - and he fit.  He needed a home and I needed a dog.  He's Lab/Border Collie mix, handsome as can be, great personality, biddable.  He's totally different from Shari, which worked for me because I didn't want to fall into comparing the two, as I might have been tempted to do if I got another husky.  He is a seizure dog, though, so even if I wanted another Bear when he is gone, it'd be stupid to breed him  - he's a mutt, neutered, and epilepsy is hereditary.

As a shelter volunteer, you can count me as one of hundreds who've seen far too many puppies and dogs that ended up in shelters and euthanized because someone just *had* to have an offspring of his/her "Best Dog In The Whole World".  Even if I ever acquire a purebred, I'd feel the same way.  I want a companion, that's all.

 Mind if I weigh in, Jaime?

I'm not a breeder now, but I will be in the future.  Yes, I've heard all the arguments against it, yes I've been told that by breeding I'd be killing shelter dogs, and that purebreds all have health problems...on and on.

You know what, though?  I don't owe the people who hold those opinions...anything at all.  What I do feel I owe is to give a breed which has stolen my heart my efforts in preserving the best of them, so that they are there when the next "me" comes along and has THEIR heart stolen by them, too. 

Benedict

I'm not a breeder now, but I will be in the future.  Yes, I've heard all the arguments against it, yes I've been told that by breeding I'd be killing shelter dogs, and that purebreds all have health problems...on and on.

You know what, though?  I don't owe the people who hold those opinions...anything at all.  What I do feel I owe is to give a breed which has stolen my heart my efforts in preserving the best of them, so that they are there when the next "me" comes along and has THEIR heart stolen by them, too. 

Perfectly put, Kate.  I've bolded parts I want to respond to.  I was also told (not by anyone on this board) that by purchasing Nikon, I was killing a shelter dog.   First, I find it pretty ballsy and outrageous that some people who don't know me well would say this to my face, not knowing anything about me or my involvement in dogs.  You could really make this statement about anything - "Oh you bought a new pair of shoes?  You KILLED a shelter dog b/c you didn't send him the money to sponsor him!"  More importantly though, I chose Nikon based on a pairing of sire and dam, and two breeding programs I respect.  I would not have added a third dog if it had not been Nikon, bottom line.  In fact I was not totally sold on having a puppy in general, but if you are only looking for a young adult, green dog of certain lines and type, your choices are severely limited.  The type of people who have made that comment to me have this saviour-complex like they are a better person for adopting a shelter dog and that's that.  But what they didn't know or ask is that I have 4 other pets from shelters and rescues (and those are the ones still alive, not total), I've fostered and pulled animals from shelters and rescues, I do home visits for the GSD rescue, I walked and trained dogs at the animal shelter and volunteered at the adoption events.  Breed preservation and working with homeless dogs is not mutually exclusive.  I have a rescue dog too but I don't parade him around to boost my ego.  Ironically, many people that pass us on the street think he is a purebred dog.

Personally, I will blacklist any breeder whose dogs have ever knowingly ended up in a rescue or shelter situation.  That would be enough for me to cut ties and not speak to that person again. I can't respect or associate with anyone who claims to breed reputably but doesn't stand behind their dogs.

I think the percentage of people who are truly reputable breeders and fully invested in breed preservation is very small, and I think that their effect, direct or indirect, on the number of unwanted dogs on shelters is marginal. 

Benedict

What I do feel I owe is to give a breed which has stolen my heart my efforts in preserving the best of them

Nothing personal, and not you or your breed specifically, but how many "great breeders" of a certain breed are enough?  Aren't there a million Lab, GSD, Poodle, et cetera breeders who are quality breeders? 

I don't know the answer to the original question.  I've always been hugely supportive of spay/neuter and shelter adoption, but don't know how fair it is to tell someon that they can't breed their dog because of the over population in shelters.  However, I would never consider breeding my, or any dogs, because of the over-population, it just makes sense for me.