For Anne (spiritdogs) & Mike - Come on everyone.

whtsthfrequency

 That's what living wills are for, so the decision to disconnet or not is yours.  Then organ donation will only occur after your wishes are carried out and you don't have to worry about someone else deciding to let you go just for your organs.

 That's the issue I addressed in my second post....even things like that are never 100% easy to interpret or carry out, and can be manipulated

 

The idea that doctors are engaged in "organ harvesting" is pretty much the stuff of fiction.  Those who are on transplant wait lists are virtually unknown to the ER doc who is giving you the chest compressions when you arrive after your possibly soon-to-be-fatal car wreck, or even to the ICU doc who is watching your chest heave up and down on that ventilator.  The doc's first priority is to save your life, not some unknown person on a wait list.  I would never NOT be a donor on the off chance that the switch might get turned off too soon on me.  If you believe this stuff, IMO, you had better also have them shoot you to make absolutely sure you are dead when you die, so that you won't be clawing at the casket to get out once they bury you with your perfectly good organs;-))  Please don't let paranoia cloud your ability to make an informed decision.  Cakana makes a good point.  You can have a trusted family member make the decision based on what you expressed to them.  From my perspective, I wonder how many people who feel the way some of you feel had to NOT check the box in order to insure that my fiance had to die for lack of an organ.  I mean, how many organs that could have saved him actually got buried because the person was too scared to sign...I don't know, but I will tell you that living without him is hell.

Anne, ((((((HUGS)))))))

spiritdogs

I mean, how many organs that could have saved him actually got buried because the person was too scared to sign..

 

You know Anne...I believe thats so very very true...unfortunately.

 From my perspective, I wonder how many people who feel the way some of you feel had to NOT check the box in order to insure that my fiance had to die for lack of an organ....I mean, how many organs that could have saved him actually got buried because the person was too scared to sign...I don't know, but I will tell you that living without him is hell.

I know you're in pain over the entire situation, but I didn't somehow indirectly sign your fiance's death warrant, so that and the rest are honestly really crappy things to say to someone. I have my own reasons and experiences for my beliefs, as do you.

Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";}

 

I wanted to add that the problem is not really just the amount of donors. Look how many people are donors here. The biggest issue is the overly stringent requirements place on organs in order for them to be considered good to transplant. If you die and had anything less than a squeaky clean healthy history, forget it. Overweight? Nope, they won’t take em. Light smoker? Won’t take em. An issue with another organ system unrelated to the one you are donating? Still, not taken. You’d think they would try anything and everything, but SO many good donated organs end up in the trash because of the impossible standards.

whtsthfrequency

...being artifically kept alive after actual clinical death (NOT something I want, it's against a lot of beliefs I have) in order to donate organs/be transported to donate..

 

I absolutely would want to be artificially kept alive until the person receiving the organs could get the hospital, or whatever needed to happen. I marked organ donor on my driver's license when I first got it at 16 years old. I have also made sure it is pretty clear to my family that I want, as Dr. Bailey once said in Grey's Anatomy, for them to hump on me till they couldn't hump no more. I want all efforts exhausted on me. After that happens, they're free to use whatever parts of me can be used, and do whatever must be done in order to make that possible. I don't mean keep me alive a few days on machines, but if it means for a few hours I'm essentially Darth Vader, then let it be done. If it means even one person lives longer, or has a better quality of life for it, then that's what I want. I should only hope that should I, or one of my loved ones need it, that I or they should be fortunate enough to be able to receive it.

whtsthfrequency

Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";}

 

I wanted to add that the problem is not really just the amount of donors. Look how many people are donors here. The biggest issue is the overly stringent requirements place on organs in order for them to be considered good to transplant. If you die and had anything less than a squeaky clean healthy history, forget it. Overweight? Nope, they won’t take em. Light smoker? Won’t take em. An issue with another organ system unrelated to the one you are donating? Still, not taken. You’d think they would try anything and everything, but SO many good donated organs end up in the trash because of the impossible standards.

This just isn't true, the standards are not impossibly stringent, they are appropriately stringent. There is a HUGE shortage of organ donors mostly because regardless of what you tell people or put on your licence, your family gets the ultimate decision and most families say no. That is just the honest truth. YOu have to remember that organs don't come from healthy 15 year old kids, they come from people who have DIED. There is two types of donation, those that come from brain dead donors meaning their heart continues to beat and they are able to be kept alive for a brief period of time (sometimes up to a few days) with the help of a ventilator and pressor medications. This is a vast majority of donors so if you say you would only give if you didn't have to be on any "life support", you just said you won't give then. The other way of donation is donation after cardiac death. These patients are severely brain injured but do not meet our criteria for brain death. For these patients the family agrees to withdraw care. We wait for the heart to stop and rush them to the OR. The organs from these patients are very suboptimal and you cannot harvest heart/lungs/pancreas from this method. This is a VERY rare occurance. As someone who acutally does procurements and transplants, I can assure you that lots of organs don't end up in the trash that had any chance of surviving. That is nonsense. Transplant patients are by defiinition sick and dying, you have to put an organ in that will function or they will die. A suboptimal organ in a dying patient will kill them. Also we get organs from all over, a sick organ will not survive the cold ischemic time it takes to transport. It's absolutely incorrect that organs are turned down for light smoking or if you have an issue with another organ system. We take organs from obese patients all the time, that also is incorrect. There is something called extended criteria donors (ECD) for kidney transplant where one can agree to get organs from older, sicker donors because with kidney there is dialysis if the organ fails. You don't have an out for liver/heart/lung. Older patients don't have a good life expectancy, so organs from older donors won't be a life shortening thing like it would with a young person. There are lots of incorrect information out there about transplant, please don't believe crap form people who don't know what they are talking about. If you choose to donate your organs, you can save up to 7 people. Imagine, 7 people going home to their families because of your kindness. Talk to your family, let them know how important this is to you and wear the green ribbon. I did a kidney transplant in an 18 year old man yesterday (he got two kidneys from a baby known as a lollipop transplant because of they way we implant them). Statistically his life is now extended by at least 10-15 years. The donor family gave that young man a chance to get married, finish college, and spend 10 chrismases with his family. whtsthfrequency I encourage you to do some reading, much of what you have posted over the last several pages is untrue. Frankly it's disgusting that you would assert that any physician would be less then lifesaving for a potential donor. That is HORRIBLE and stupid thing to say. Are you aware that transplant surgeons are an entirely different team then the trauma surgeons or other physicians who admit donors? They aren't even involved in the donor's care at all, especially since most organs go to DIFFERENT HOSPITALS. WHat you think doctors troll form hospital to hospital where they don't even work waiting for people to come in who are very sick, let them die so we can take their organs? I am just insulted an appalled, you a person in the medical field, IMO should be ashamed of yourself. If anyone really has questions and is struggling with the issue, or have some questions or concerns and want the honest truth from someone who actually does this, PM me I'm always happy to help educate, especially when it means lives can be saved. Anne as always, you are in my prayers.

http://www.organdonor.gov/

http://www.donatelife.net/

I proudly wear my green ribbon every day on my lab coat

spiritdogs

From my perspective, I wonder how many people who feel the way some of you feel had to NOT check the box in order to insure that my fiance had to die for lack of an organ. 

I have to say, Anne, that even though I am a donor, I find this offensive.  It is still someones right to say no. 

 

 

r

willowchow

spiritdogs

From my perspective, I wonder how many people who feel the way some of you feel had to NOT check the box in order to insure that my fiance had to die for lack of an organ. 

I have to say, Anne, that even though I am a donor, I find this offensive.  It is still someones right to say no. 

I wonder, why did Mike have liver disease in the first place?

 

 

wow lori, nice, I'm going to hope you aren't trying to go there. I agree that everyone has the right to make their own decision, but they shouldn't use lies to justify it or make themselves feel better about it. Make your decision based on facts and own it.

ottoluv

http://www.organdonor.gov/

http://www.donatelife.net/

I proudly wear my green ribbon every day on my lab coat

 

I just signed up to receive some of the wallet cards indicating what organs I would want to have donated, and I'm going to go grab my driver's license so I can register on the web. I figure it can't hurt to let this be known in as many ways as I can.

 Frankly it's disgusting that you would assert that any physician would be less then lifesaving for a potential donor. That is HORRIBLE and stupid thing to say........they shouldn't use lies to justify it or make themselves feel better about it. Make your decision based on facts and own it

You know what? FINE You want to hear why I feel this way? I'm really *** ******* angry now because everyone is telling me I' have no idea what I'm talking about. I really, really didn't want to effing get into this but I have PERSONALLY stood by and watched as a trauma surgeon basically tried to convince the parents of an acquaintaince of mine that XXs wishes to be an organ donor, and his chances at survival were extremely slim, and basically edged  them to the DNR decision.

He kept slipping 'organ donation' or a similar term into the convo at every turn.

Sure, XX probably would not have made it. In fact, there was little chance, And yes, he was a donor. BUT there was a chance. He was not dead. And the way the doctor kept dropping in the idea, saying 'what do you think he would want you to do in this situation'  (I swear to God he said that) and "of course, this is your decision' all that CRAP. I was horrified but couldn't say anything.

was this the kids fault for not having a living will? Probably. but the actions of that doctor were terrible. The SAME Thing happened to one of my ex boyfriends cousin's parents. You can't seriously say that every doctor in the world is morally clean. THATS' totally untrue. Are 99.99% Sure. But don't pretend you haven't heard all of the very true stories of malpractice, etc.

Of course this doctor couldnt be charged with anything. He didn't do anything 'actually' wrong. You can't argue in court that someone was using an "overly persuasive tone" or language. The kid was a donor, and didn't have a will. The parents were scared and didnt know what do do. And in my honest opinion and from what I saw,  they were manipulated. But I could hear it, and I was scared.

 You'll never forget someone who died for lack of an organ donation? I'll never forget that occasion. Deal with it.

And because there are doctors like that, however rare, makes me worried about labeling myself as a donor, even with a will of some sort.

I never said it was a good thing that some people are scared. Its a terrible thing. But understand that some people actually have reasons.If I get in a car crash out in the middle of Nebraska, how on earth do I know that the doctor I get taken to is one of the 99.99% scrupulous or the 0.01% questionable?

THAT is it. I'm out of this thread. This is fricking ridiculous. Crucify people for their beliefs and knock em down without even thinking that there miught be a VALID REASON for them.

 you think doctors troll form hospital to hospital where they don't even work waiting for people to come in who are very sick, let them die so we can take their organs?

And I never said that. That's a poor straw man arguement that exaggerates and twists my opinion on purpose to make it seems stupid. Don't put words in my mouth to villify me. Your accusations of me are the same as me accusing you that the reason you wear that ribbon every day is to feel so darn superior to everyone else.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and options.  I know this, if my child needed an organ I would be praying that there are many people who want to help him.  If you choose to be an organ donor thru DL your family members can overturn you decision.

The United States' system of organ procurement is rooted in altruism, the decisions that individuals make to donate their own or a loved one's organs to save a stranger's life. But relying purely on altruism isn't supplying enough organs to meet the demand. More than 95,000 people are on the national waiting list, roughly 6,700 die each year.

We are members of LifeSharers.org, a nonprofit Web site in which people sign a contract saying if they die, they'll donate their organs first to other people who are members of LifeSharers.  If none is a match, the organs go to the top person on the national waiting list.  Matchingdonor.com is another.

The reason we choose to register here is selfish in LifeSharers has 9,300 members, of whom 52 are on the transplant waiting list. I believe membership improves your chances of finding a donor. Every time they add numbers, that probability goes up.  Just somethign to think about.

And one last thing and this has nothing to do with SD and Mike - just a general statement.

The organ shortage is not so much a problem of too little supply; the number of organ donors has actually grown steadily. It's just that the number of patients eligible for organs has mushroomed much faster. Any discussion about improving the transplant system ought to include preventing disease in the first place. "Maybe one of the reasons we have such a large gap is because we haven't done a good job in prevention," I too am out of this thread and many tight {{{hugs}}} to Spiritdogs and Mikes memory!

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

I'm having some puter issues, so please excuse the funky little additions of wierd characters.

Everyone has a right to have strong feelings on any subject.  Everyone is entitled to share those feelings. Everyone has a right to be offended, so lets just move on from that and respect the other persons riht to express themselves.

Because of the manner of my sisters death, her organs weren't viable.  But, her eyes, her skin, her muscles and her long bones helped I believe 17 different people.  That's the number that sticks in my mind from the letter of thanks my mom received.

A bone graft requires a "fishing expedition" on another part of the patients body, unless donor bone is available.  My nuero surgeon told me that in six months the hip would hve forgotten it had been invaded and transplanted into my neck.  TEN YEARS later, I still have a very reliable, and painful, reminder of that surgery, anytime the barometric pressure changes.  So, should I ever need another bone graft, I'd opt for donor bne.``````````````````````````````

Once I am gone, I have no use for the bones, the tissue, the skin, the organs, and if someone else can use them, they are welcome to them.  I'm glad that you posted Ottoluv, because, I might have thought my willingness to donate would be worthless.  I'm a tad overweight, I smoke, and some days not lightly, and, shoot, I'll be 55 this month, so not exactly a youngster.  I intend to leave this world kicking and screaming, however, intentions don't always happen.

I have set out very specific criteria for when the machines are to be turned off.  I kn`o`w that having to make that decision would be wrenching for my husband or my sons.  I've taken that out of their hands and hopefully spared them the pain of having to decide.  Yes, they ultimately will have to agree, BUT, the docs have my written wishes to back up what they are asking the guys to do.

And I'm pretty sure it's not just ONE doc who gets to say, no more.  I think it's several docs who have to agree that there is little to no hope before they can even suggest pulling the plug? 

Yes, where there is life there is hope.  Maybe.  I don't want my family sitting around my hospital bed for years and years waiting, hoping, praying for a miracle that they probably won't ever get, and if they do, might wish they hadn't.  If I spend years in a coma, I'm not going to be the same ME that I was when the whole thing started.  So to me, that's kind of a cruel hope.

My worst nightmare is to have my mind fully functional, but to be trapped in my body, unable to move speak, communicate in anyway, and have a bunch of docs playing God and keeping me alive because I don't have an advance directive.  I can't think of a worse hell for me than being forced to live that way.

If there is anything left in my body, or outside of it that is usable, that can help send someone ELSE home, well, the "vultures" are wecome to it.  My time will come, when it is supposed to come, and if I can continue to help other folks after I've gone, well, that would be the icing on the cake for me.

I really hope that those who don't agree, well, please think about the purpose of this thread before you post.

Moderator Warning...

Honestly...I am suprised at the tone this thread has taken...speaking to ALL posting. Cease and desist.

This thread was started in the spirit of helping and sharing...and I doubt it VERY highly it was started to have an arguement. START A NEW THREAD TO ARGUE. There is plenty of room in NDR for such discussions...CIVIL discussions where actual respect...not pretend respect veiled with snide remarks, can be used to temper responses and rebuttals and debate.

Be civil, be respectful, YOU are responsible for what you post...I know you folks, are better than this.

Thank you.

Chuffy

Come on everybody, in memory of Mike... who else is going to make "Be an organ donor" their New Year's Resolution for 2009?

glenmar

I really hope that those who don't agree, well, please think about the purpose of this thread before you post.

Yes, please.  I'm speechless at the turn this has taken.  Hugs Anne.