Help me understand.............

I love Elton John.....don't care what he is.

I love the statement that he made in the above. It makes so much sense. He realizes where the problem is and doesn't want a problem.....for what reason does he need it.

I do agree with him... "heterosexual people get married.... gays can have civil partnerships." If it ends up being the same and people accept it better....why not?

dyan

 

I do agree with him... "heterosexual people get married.... gays can have civil partnerships." If it ends up being the same and people accept it better....why not?

I think the difference is that in the UK civil partnerships are equal to marriage, including all the legalities involved.  Here they're not.

Joyce

I wish to correct an error on my part. I just re-read the Constitution. "All men are created equal" is not in it. However, that phrase is in the Declaration of Independence. And there are no amendments to the D of I. It has never been changed or re-worded. If people wish to view not all people as equal, then should we rescind the Declaration, which might return us to the rule of Britain? Which, as others have noted, has civil ceremonies that carry the same weight as that magical word, "marriage". How would life be under, eventually, King William? How about life under the Queen? Would Britain take us back, considering our debt load? I apologize for the error.

Gay is not a decision, like what outfit to wear or what to have for dinner. A number of scientific investigations have been undertaken, with not one yet to be definitive. There is not exactly a gay gene, so to speak. More than likely, however, it is a combination of genetics, hormones in the womb (which actually has some evidence behind it), and life experiences. Some thought suggests, based on the actual behavior of man, and even some other animals, that people are actually on a sliding scale. But all that aside, simply look at the world as it is. And for those who think that being gay is against God's plan, how do you respond to people born with some genitalia or gonads shared by both genders, i.e., physical hermaphrodites? And other genetic variances of people that have been born xyy and xxy? If God created all, then He created those variances, too. This is not an attack on faith. I'm asking people to have faith. That God has a plan that included gays and transexuals. How else could they exist? And I mean cases where the parents never took any experimental drugs to blame it on.

I know we won't resolve this but legally, the day is coming where gay marriage, civil union, whatever appeases people controlled by a word, will be accepted and recognized. Otherwise, we will turn into Iran, where women may not show their face or legs in public. Or Saudi Arabia, where men may have up to four wives.

ron2

Gay is not a decision, like what outfit to wear or what to have for dinner. A number of scientific investigations have been undertaken, with not one yet to be definitive. There is not exactly a gay gene, so to speak. More than likely, however, it is a combination of genetics, hormones in the womb (which actually has some evidence behind it), and life experiences. Some thought suggests, based on the actual behavior of man, and even some other animals, that people are actually on a sliding scale.

Color me impressed - I could provide some of the exact paper citations for some of those statements, like hormones in the womb (and some links to birth order as well, with the maternal immune hypothesis suggesting that the more male children a woman has, the fewer male hormones the boys will be exposed to in the womb as the mother's immune system "attacks the foreign hormones";), sliding scales of sexuality... you're dead-on with your literature review. There's also been some interesting research on sexual plasticity, as well, which basically concluded that while most women are sexually aroused by any type of erotica, be it homosexual or heterosexual, most men are aroused only by homo OR heterosexual erotic materials. And their stated preferences don't always line up with their physiological responses. And, boy, you really don't want to know how they measured sexual arousal... it was NOT self-report!

ron2

Gay is not a decision,

And, that's where I have my issue.  I feel (very strongly) that some people do "decide" to be gay that week or that year due to either something that happened with the opposite sex or attention or whatever.  For example, Lindsay Lohan is gay now??  Come on, all of a sudden she just decided that??

willowchow

And, that's where I have my issue.  I feel (very strongly) that some people do "decide" to be gay that week or that year due to either something that happened with the opposite sex or attention or whatever.  For example, Lindsay Lohan is gay now??  Come on, all of a sudden she just decided that??

IMO, I wouldn't base my theory on Lindsay Lohan, or any celebrity for that matter in this regard. You never know what they are doing for publicity and what they aren't. I do however agree that there are SOME people who are one minute gay, the next not. But there also people that have always been gay, and if you talk to them they will say they always knew something was different about them.  IMO, true gay people don't bounce around, straight people are the ones bouncing around, experimenting and such.

willowchow

I feel (very strongly) that some people do "decide" to be gay that week or that year due to either something that happened with the opposite sex or attention or whatever.

I think there are a huge number of girls who "experiment" with other girls, and call themselves gay or bi for a while. I have several in my family (sisters and cousins) alone, but not one of them is actually gay. I think it's a phase a lot of girls go through. I also think it's mostly attention-seeking. The fact is most guys are....excited by 2 girls, and every girl on the planet knows it. The cousins and sister I mentioned? Pretty promiscuous, pretty "boy-crazy" when they aren't going through their gay phases... That doesn't make "true" gay people any less gay. It doesn't make every person who calls themself gay phony, just because some are.

There is also a large population of gay/*** people who were molested when they were young.

There's also a large population of heterosexual people who were molested when young, many of them chronically and by abusers of either sex. My boyfriend was molested as a child.  And it's safe to say he's 100% straight.

Are you getting this idea from *actual population studies*? Are there any *sources* to back up this idea that that majority of gay people have been molested? And that this molestation caused them to change their sexual orientation?

willowchow

And, that's where I have my issue.  I feel (very strongly) that some people do "decide" to be gay that week or that year due to either something that happened with the opposite sex or attention or whatever.

You keep saying that like someone burned you personally. And I doubt it was Ann Heche, the most famous of switcheroos.

jenn52

There is also a large population of gay/*** people who were molested when they were young. Most of the gay people who I know in real life were molested. This would be a more trauma response/coping mechanism then being born gay, so therefore nuture not nature.

Actually, nearly all child molesters are hetero in their adult life. And the children they molest don't always grow up and do the same. And such a theory just discounted all the straight families that went to church and still had someone grow up gay. Another crippling problem with that theory is that it doesn't account for all of God's Creation, in the genetically variant, the physically and hormonally variant. In fact if God created these people, to not acknowledge them is a slap in His face. The sheer number of people who felt "different" at an early age, usually no later than the onset of puberty. A theory should account for all evidence, not just a minute occurrence. And I'm not saying that some haven't turned to homosexuality as a result of trauma. I'm well aware of the story of actress Anne Heche. Working with Harrison Ford is just that powerful. Seriously, she's been through a lot, sure.

I know humans are not always satisfied with God's Creation. I still wish Noah had smashed those two roaches when he had the chance.

chelsea_b

willowchow

I feel (very strongly) that some people do "decide" to be gay that week or that year due to either something that happened with the opposite sex or attention or whatever.

 

I think there are a huge number of girls who "experiment" with other girls, and call themselves gay or bi for a while.

 As I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of evidence to suggest that women have greater "sexual plasticity" (as in, can be sexually aroused by a much greater variety of things) than men, in general. This is probably a large part of why we see a lot of "bi" or "switching" women - even if they prefer men, they probably still find women attractive, so hey - why not?

Evolutionary psychologists have suggested this evolved because women tend to choose a mate based on non-sexual aspects like earning ability, loyalty, and ability to care for future children, whereas men are much more drawn to women's specific physical/sexual characteristics. So, if you're a cavewoman, the best hunter in the tribe might be butt-ugly from being gored by a mastodon or something, but you can learn to be attracted to him anyway because his ability to provide for your family is attractive.

Lisa Diamond has done some really fascinating work on this topic - I recommend anyone interested to look her up, or I could send you some papers I have on my computer.

Here's a NYT article talking about it: http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/070505NYTBisexuality.pdf 

Here's a study she did tracking ***, bisexual, and heterosexual women over a 10 year period. She found that yes, 2/3 of the sample changed their stated sexual orientation at some point, but it was much more that the women were deciding/realizing they were attracted to women than that they decided to "go hetero." http://www.psych.utah.edu/people/faculty/diamond/Publications/Female%20bisexuality%20from%20adolescence%20to%20adulthood.pdf

Here's another study on "romantic love" versus "sexual desire" - this is one of my favorite articles of hers, and IMO gives a very strong argument for why women tend to have more same-sex partners than men, even if they identify as heterosexual. It kind of explains the phenomenon of the "girl crush." http://www.psych.utah.edu/people/faculty/diamond/Publications/What%20does%20Sexual%20Orientation%20Orient.pdf

Edited to add: how is l-es-bian a bad word?! sigh.

willowchow

ron2

Gay is not a decision,

And, that's where I have my issue.  I feel (very strongly) that some people do "decide" to be gay that week or that year due to either something that happened with the opposite sex or attention or whatever.  For example, Lindsay Lohan is gay now??  Come on, all of a sudden she just decided that??

I wouldn't take most things most celebrities do as a great example for anything.........

I agree that some people seem to bounce back and forth.  So what?  What's that got to do with granting legal recognition to a relationship?   Some people decided to be vegetarian....and it only lasts a short while.  Point is, very little in this world is one way or another.  Lots of stuff is a little of both. 

jenn52

There is also a large population of gay/*** people who were molested when they were young. Most of the gay people who I know in real life were molested. This would be a more trauma response/coping mechanism then being born gay, so therefore nuture not nature.

Do the people you know claim that the molestation they experience early in life led to their homosexuality? 

In research with 942 nonclinical adult participants, gay men and *** women reported a significantly higher rate of childhood molestation than did heterosexual men and women. Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation. Twenty-two percent of *** women in contrast to 1% of heterosexual women reported homosexual molestation. This research is apparently the first survey that has reported substantial homosexual molestation of girls.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/aseb/2001/00000030/00000005/00340735?crawler=true

 A study of 279 homosexual/bisexual men with AIDS and control patients discussed in the Journal of the American Medical Association reported: "More than half of both case and control patients reported a sexual act with a male by age 16 years, approximately 20 percent by age 10 years." 71

Noted child sex abuse expert David Finkelhor found that "boys victimized by older men were over four times more likely to be currently engaged in homosexual activity than were non-victims. The finding applied to nearly half the boys who had had such an experience..Further, the adolescents themselves often linked their homosexuality to their sexual victimization experiences." 72

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/DaileyHomosexualAbuse.htm