Help me understand.............

 I wasn't going to post to this thread due to my own strong feelings, but I did want to say this:

It can't be had both ways...it can't be said that homosexuality is a choice for the majority of them, rather than being genetic or a combo of nature/nurture, and ALSO be said that it is the result of molestation for the majority, since I'm sure it CAN be said that they didn't choose to be molested, and therefore they didn't have the free will to choose the repercussions of same. 

Purplepets,

I have worked hard to stay out of this thread for many days now because this is a issue that inflames me with very little effort. I am not a ***, but have many homosexual friends and been around homosexuals almost my entire life and wasn’t raised to believe there was anything “different” about them. It wasn’t until I was in middle school that I actually heard my first derogatory comments towards gays and lesbians and I was shocked by this and have never understood where this dislike comes from. I don’t understand how someone who opposes homosexuality and the rights of those who are homosexual feel that it AFFECTS THEM.

I live in Southern California and was one of the few in my fairly conservative neighborhood flashing “NO on Prop 8” signs on my property. I have talked with those in favor of the prop until I am blue in the face and have yet to understand a RATIONAL argument against gay marriage. I just don’t understand their arguments and the discussion goes round and round again with me not understanding their view any better than when we started. I even have very close friends who oppose it and I cant understand where they are coming from on this issue, despite multiple civil conversations with them.

My heart hurts for the my gay and *** friends, especially those who I celebrated with  this year after they “legally tied the knot”. I spend time with the children they had and are raising wonderfully to be tolerant, loving individuals. These kids are confused by  people telling them that their parents and the love they share for each other and the family they have grown should not be recognized or even allowed. This includes women who have gone through great extremes and cost to have children that are the closest biological to both parents as they can possibly be. I watch them weep at work and be unable to come in the day after the elections because they are so distraught that this legislation passed and that the majority of the people, albeit a small margin in Cali, doesn’t believe in their rights.

But I also watch them as they rejoice for the victories. Rejoice that it was such a small margin in the votes. Happy that we have a new political future ahead and optimistic that someday, hopefully in their lifetime they will have rights like everyone else.

I have no answer about the “why” of your question. But I have come to believe that I will NEVER be able to understand and that I need to be OK with that. That there are fundamental differences in the way I was raised with my set of beliefs and they way that those people who strongly oppose these rights were raised.   I think the “fence riders” have the ability to be swayed in either direction, but the people feel strongly on both sides of the issue, IMO, were raised different from one another.   So I guess in some cases things can be a “nuture” issue.   As for the “nature” issue wrt homosexuality, I believe this is a fundamental reasoning for many people who strongly oppose homosexuality.  With their entire heart they believe that homosexuality is a choice that people make (and we aren’t talking Hollywood and experimentation here folks.. I mean people that are truly homo or bisexual). As asinine as they may sound to many of us out there, unless they somehow become convinced that it isn’t a choice that many make, they will always be convinced that their side and beliefs are the right ones.

SO essentially I don't have an answer, but after months now of this going on in Cali, my DH and I have both come to this conclusion. That it is a serious difference in how we were raised and we may never be able to understand their side and views, just as they can't understand ours. Not the answer you were looking for I am sure.. but the answer I have come to over this last month.       

Wow, I've never met a single gay person who was molested.  Not saying they don't exist but I don't really buy into that "causal" relationship.  And even if it were true I don't see why it matters.  My second cousin was molested as a child and she's messed up as can be but guess what, no one has ever considered that her right to marry should be constitutionally banned...

jenn52

Noted child sex abuse expert David Finkelhor found that "boys victimized by older men were over four times more likely to be currently engaged in homosexual activity than were non-victims. The finding applied to nearly half the boys who had had such an experience..Further, the adolescents themselves often linked their homosexuality to their sexual victimization experiences." 72

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/DaileyHomosexualAbuse.htm

Regardless, since no one chooses to be molested, I fail to see how that would make being gay a choice?

The longer this thread goes on the more disturbing I find it. Who cares why someone is gay? It's not like it is a disease, birth defect, disability, mental illness - whatever. It is two people of the same gender who are attracted to each other and/or in love with each other. Other than that they are the same as everyone else on here. They are happy the way they are and proud of who they are. I don't think the OP or any other gay person cares one iota about your or my theory/opinion as to why they are gay. The original question was why people would vote for proposition 8. 

denise m

 The original question was why people would vote for proposition 8.                                                                     

I'd love to know the answer to that one myself.  It all makes about as much sense to me as deciding that you can't get married if you're tall and blond, or you have red hair and freckles.  I think some people just have a fear of anything that's different or anything they don't understand.  Pretty pathetic, IMO.

Joyce

Maybe the problem was the only people who went out and voted at all...voted for it? I haven't seen the numbers but I could see not having an opinion or not really being interested and neutral and just skipping that altogether, or voter burn out? how heavily were they pushing the yes or no there? many ads? sometimes I get so tired of hearing about something I go out of my way to avoid it...I don't know...just an idea.

BTW to put on

MOD HAT....

this thread needs to stay ON TOPIC...that was not why people are gay...but one specific legal voting issue. Start a new thread to discuss offshoot convo's if you feel you need to.

Krissim Klaw

Regardless, since no one chooses to be molested, I fail to see how that would make being gay a choice

Excellent point. When I was a small child, I touched a hot burner and got burned. That ended my stove-touching career. More to the point, DW has had many a bad experience with men, including the one she put in prison. And that guy is a really bad guy. One time, on his info sheet, which is sent to her every time he comes up for parole, his STG (security threat group) status listed the Mexican Mafia. Those are guys who deal pretty much in contracted murder. Enforcers, if you will, for others. Hence, I don't reveal her maiden name or any personal info that could identify her. She had just about given up on getting married when she met me. Point being, that bad or wrong or confusing experiences don't necessarily lead to sexual behavior changes, per se, unless you want to consider abstinence a behavior change. By all accounts, and some interpretations, she should have given up men and "chose" women. But she didn't. And, if a young man were to have his first sexual experience with another man or was molested by an older man, which does imply coercion and even rape, why would he seek out more activity that would be reminiscent of that initial experience? It has been my experience that horrendous personal experiences lead to an emotional scar that allows one to survive. For example, it would make better sense for a male victim of molestation to go out and be a "lady's man" seeking to reassure himself and move as far away from that initial experience, But I do not deny that some gay people have been victims of molestation and rape. I just don't think it causes them to be gay. Or straight. I think it's a coinicidence in the study that was cited that some gay people have been molested. Also, there would be a question of how honest people are, the time in their life where they may be seeking a reason and latch onto that.

I also think there is a desire on the part of some to explain away being gay. To keep it demonized and sinful. Even by means of weak causal theories in psychology. Anything but actually accept that it is part of the world, either by creation, or by evolution.

And, as Gina supposed, perhaps not enough people who opposed prop 8 voted, I don't know. But I think the whole proposition shouldn't have come up, to begin with. It is in opposition to the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

denise m

The longer this thread goes on the more disturbing I find it.

We did seem to veer off the path a little while back.  The only thing I'm going to say about why I'm gay.........I just am !  There.  Done.

 As to Gina's question about ads........I get the impression from youtube there were a LOT.  The ones against prop 8 are fashioned after the "Hi, I'm a PC and I'm a MAC" commercials.  I really liked them !

I don't know.....I guess there is no answer to my question.  At least not one that I find reasonable and logical.  Thanks though.  I never imagined this thread would get to far !  Again, I'm impressed how we've managed to stay civil.

PurplePets22

Thanks though.  I never imagined this thread would get to far !  Again, I'm impressed how we've managed to stay civil.

You're here and you're family (even though you've been here as long as most people, at least since the format change.) A hug from DW and me (DW is a self-admitted incessant hugger) and a big, slobbery lick on the lips from Shadow. Jade, on the other hand, meets people on her own terms.

 I can't help but think that it could just as easily be, that homosexual men are far more willing to talk about rape that heterosexual men.  For most straight men, rape, especially by another guy would be something they would never want to tell anyone, lest someone accuse them of being weak, or even worse, gay.  Wouldn't be surprised if gay males are more willing to come forward about rape because they have already crossed the hump of being worried about being called gay.

Exactly. There is no cause established. That's why it isn't a theory.

If it is raining, it means Susie will wear a coat. Susie is wearing a coat, therefore it is raining - nope, logical fallacy.

This study did not establish that these people were 100% straight and turned gay BECAUSE of molestation.

EDIT after seeing the mod note, I'll step back out since my conversation was drifting more towards the why and not on topic

 Thanks Ron.  I'm a pretty good hugger myself and I love slobbery doggie kisses.  As for Jade....I understand
 

rwbeagles

Maybe the problem was the only people who went out and voted at all...voted for it? I haven't seen the numbers but I could see not having an opinion or not really being interested and neutral and just skipping that altogether, or voter burn out? how heavily were they pushing the yes or no there? many ads? sometimes I get so tired of hearing about something I go out of my way to avoid it...I don't know...just an idea.

Oh no… this was HUGE here… and even many people felt just as strongly if not more so about voting on this prop as they did about who they were going to vote for president.     Signs were EVERYWHERE, the news always covered it, tempers flared, tens of thousands of people showed up at our local stadium for demonstrations, as I am sure happened across the state.        The ONLY political calls I got at home were 2 calls wondering how I was going to vote by the “YES” camp.  People flocked to vote on this issue and over 60 million dollars was spent (both sides combined) on this prop. It wasn’t like anything I had seen before on any previous propositions.

Just had to clear those points up…

rwbeagles

Maybe the problem was the only people who went out and voted at all...voted for it?

There were over 11 million votes on prop 8...about the same number of votes in CA for president. It ended up being about 52% to 48%. I voted no obviously, and basically everyone I know here voted no.

There were LOTS of ads, both for and against. There were some disgusting slander ads about how kids will be taught about gay marriage in school if we don't pass prop 8. I have a feeling that might've convinced a lot of people. That nearly got my mother, who has no problem with gay people... I still don't get why she cares if kids are taught about gay marriage in school, though I guess I could understand why it might bother other people.. But that's all moot, because the freaking California Superintendent came out and said that was absolutely BS, and nothing about gay marriage would be in the curriculum of CA public schools, that there's not really anything about marriage AT ALL in the public school curriculums, so why would they go out of their way to add gay marriage...

I really don't get it either.

 How can you say it wouldn't affect the schools?

One teacher invited her students to her gay wedding.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gayschools19-2008oct19,0,6474352.story


Another teacher made 5 year olds sign cards stating they would support Gay/***/Transgender.

http://cbs5.com/local/gay.marriage.schools.2.851074.html

Both things are unnecessary in school and inappropriate for the ages of the kids.  Values are for parents to teach, not schools.