Help me understand.............

PurplePets22

 Ron........you're awsome !  I wish I was as well read (and could remember it all) as you are.

I'm still the apolitical conservative pain in the butt but thanks. I'm just old and I've been around a few blocks a few times. You'd be surpised how much living you can cram into one lifetime.

And it's not been my intention to bash anyone or their faith. My friend, Tom, has an awesome faith in God. I've torn apart just about every part of the Bible. In some cases, he may agree with my assessment. I've point out all the wrong done in the name of God and he would agree to all of that, too. And smile and pass you the pepper or gravy and he's still going to church on Sunday, heck or high water. His faith transcends any one denomination or even the Scripture. The whole point of Jesus was to do away with all the hindrances to God. Simply accept and you can talk to God any time, anywhere, directly. I've seen him pray in the forest on a hike. Thanks for the beauty and the Creation. Nothing can shake his faith. And it wouldn't bother him in the least if people of the same gender wanted to get married. He is not a judge but a child of God. For him, God is a real entity, not a list of does and don'ts from a tribe of desert nomads. God tells him to love his fellow man, unconditionally. So, I'm kind of spoiled from that. I can say what I want and it doesn't offend. Here can be a different story.

People have suggested that if we allow gay marriage, then we allow incest and polygamy. Well polygamy was how things were done in Hawaii before our missionaries showed up. And it was the other way around. Women were likely to have many husbands and women were the power set. So, some cultures would then be allowed to return to their heritage. As for incest, I think it can be wrong, at least from a biological standpoint because of breeding problems. It could depend on which creation story you like. The Bible has two primary creation stories. One in which Adam takes a wife from some Other People that around. That one was Lilith and it didn't end so well. The other one is Eve, taken from the rib of Adam. Therefore, Adam and Eve are genetic twins. Which makes all of Man the product of incest.

In the list of commandments it says that man shall not lie down with man, as he does with woman. It also says thou shall not have any graven images. Anyone here wear a crucifix? How about a saint's pin for whatever? My friend, Tony, had a St. Christopher pin in his car. And he was raised catholic. Graven images. I would venture to say that everyone here has broken all the commandments except for "thou shall not kill" which is assumed to mean human beings, and does not extend to the slaughter of animals for food. Belief in those items for all Man or even belief in the creation stories as the origin of Man is a matter of faith and a religious opinion. But it is not to be the foundation of our laws. Freedom of religion should also include freedom from religion.

I think, too, everyone has expressed themselves quite well, for and against.

Just to clarify my earlier statement.  I don't care what anyone wears, what they do to their hair, how they look, etc.  My comment was in response to Gina's question that PERHAPS that was what the author meant.  I'm trying to see these questions from ALL sides, not based on my personal comfort level.  The comment about clothing and hair was NOT my personal opinion.

Frankly, I'd rather see a woman with a buzz cut, than a teenager with his butt hanging out of his jeans.   

glenmar

Frankly, I'd rather see a woman with a buzz cut, than a teenager with his butt hanging out of his jeans.

You got that right!!!!!

My neighborhood is filled with apartment complexes with a ton of teenagers.  Plus I'm 1 block from a high school.  These kids look ridiculous and have no idea they do.  More than once I've been tempted to yell "buy a belt ! " from my car as I pass them  

 Oh my lord, didn't that start going out of "style" in the 90s? My 17 year old little brother still does it as well. Yech!

I thought safe sex meant wearing a helmet and leathers. No wonder that didn't go so well ...

No, that's just creative 

ron2

In the list of commandments it says that man shall not lie down with man, as he does with woman.

Not trying to start anything here (lol) but exactly which one of the commandments would that be?  I ask because as a product of many years of Catholic education, the only commandment that I can recall having anything to do with who sleeps with who is "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and adultery, as far as I know, is breaking your marriage vows.

Joyce

PurplePets22

So we have established that equal rights for everybody is a good thing.

So, if gays are given the right to marry, what about polygamists? I don't believe gays are born gay, and due to this fact especially, they don't have a "right" to marriage. If I decided I wanted to have two husbands, I couldn't because people have never been able to do something just because they think they deserve "equal rights". There has to be proof that they are being denied rights because of something they can't control, not something they choose to participate in.

PurplePets22

That everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, morals, ethics, religious teachings.......but the law needs to remain separate from any religious influence in order to be equal for all. 

I agree that we obviously can't start creating obviously religious laws, but people need to remember that our (U.S.';) value system and government in core is based on religion, specifically Christianity. The law as it stands will ALWAYS have religious influence. Where do you think we got the idea that it's NOT okay to kill, steal, etc.?

PurplePets22

This issue will come up for a vote again.  There will be groups that will go to all kinds of effort to strike it down.  This time it was California.  There were groups from other states that spent millions to spread lies and create fear.  This time the lies won.  I hope next time, we'll be stronger than the lies.

I obviously oppose gay marriage and will do what I can to see it does not pass in my state (it's already been banned here in the past), but I have not spread lies nor created fear. I know the facts about homosexuality/gay marriage and choose not to support either concept, that doesn't mean I'm agreeing with lies or basing my opinion on fear.

Anyway...just thought I'd throw this out there as I know sometimes it's scary to speak up against gay marriage but if everyone's sharing their opinion, just thought I would as well. : ) BTW Purplepets, I'm not trying to upset or personally offend you but this is an issue I feel pretty strongly about.

IrishSetterGrl

I agree that we obviously can't start creating obviously religious laws, but people need to remember that our (U.S.';) value system and government in core is based on religion, specifically Christianity. The law as it stands will ALWAYS have religious influence. Where do you think we got the idea that it's NOT okay to kill, steal, etc.?

You might want to dust off your copy of the Constitution.  And Christianity didn't invent the do not kill, steal, etc. Every major religion is founded on these basic concepts.  Separation of religion from State is one of the reasons this country was founded.  You have every right to oppose gay marriage but the law in California that recently passed is on shaky ground.  And it should be, IMO.

lorib

FWIW, protected sex can also be oral sex with a barrier.

Also...most gay guys have protected sex. And there ain't a vagina in sight there. Plenty of straight people have non-vaginal sex as well.

The argument that gay people aren't born gay? I'm kind of speechless about that... I think if you honestly believe that, you haven't met enough truly gay people. Why would someone choose that anyway? Especially guys. I think there are a lot of girls who experiment (mostly between the ages of like 16 and 25), even to the point of calling themselves lesbians for a while, who really aren't gay, but guys? Do you know any straight guy who would have sex with another guy just to experiment? I sure don't...

IrishSetterGrl

Where do you think we got the idea that it's NOT okay to kill, steal, etc.?

Oh puh-lease! All morality does not come from religion.

IrishSetterGrl

So, if gays are given the right to marry, what about polygamists? I don't believe gays are born gay, and due to this fact especially, they don't have a "right" to marriage. If I decided I wanted to have two husbands, I couldn't because people have never been able to do something just because they think they deserve "equal rights". There has to be proof that they are being denied rights because of something they can't control, not something they choose to participate in.

I obviously oppose gay marriage and will do what I can to see it does not pass in my state (it's already been banned here in the past), but I have not spread lies nor created fear. 

Anyway...just thought I'd throw this out there as I know sometimes it's scary to speak up against gay marriage but if everyone's sharing their opinion, just thought I would as well. : ) BTW Purplepets, I'm not trying to upset or personally offend you but this is an issue I feel pretty strongly about.

I have yet to figure out how to isolate multiple sections of a post and quote them individually....so I lumped all the things I wanted to respond to in a group. 

So...........you think I am actively choosing to participate in a homosexual lifestyle.  Hmmmm, what makes you think that I was NOT born gay ?  I really would like to know where this theory comes from.  I have heard it from other people and I would like some insight.

I can no more choose my sexual orientation than you can.  I can't choose my haircolor, eye color, height, the fact I love pasta and hate peas.  I prefer writing with pens to pencils, chunky peanut butter to creamy.  Don't like milk at all....I like reading and watching science fiction and don't want anything to do with horror movies.  What on earth makes you think that I am choosing a way of life that has resulted in discrimination, ridicule, persecution, hate crimes, fear, and social rejection.  If I really did prefer to have a relationship with a man......don't you think I would ?????

I have been gay from day 1.  My parents knew long before I got up the strength to tell them.  I had to get over the incredible fear of rejection before I could be honest with my parents.  Believe me, being gay is no choice.  We do have choices about how we are going to live though.  We can be honest with ourselves and others in our lives or we can choose to hide who we are out of fear and insecurity.   I choose to be out and proud.

The spreading of lies I was refering to pertained to the following website.  

http://www.whatisprop8.com/  This lists 6 consequences if the proposition fails.  All of them are false.  There were a ton of TV commercials spreading the same lies.  This website debunks those lies... http://yeson8.org/  (I know it's the URL calls it Yes on 8 but the actual website is called No on 8)

I'm glad you shared your opinion.  I guess I'm not personally offended by your belief that being gay is a choice............just really really dumbfounded.  I hope you reply and explain a bit more.
 

fuzzy_dogs_mom

ron2

In the list of commandments it says that man shall not lie down with man, as he does with woman.

Not trying to start anything here (lol) but exactly which one of the commandments would that be?  I ask because as a product of many years of Catholic education, the only commandment that I can recall having anything to do with who sleeps with who is "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and adultery, as far as I know, is breaking your marriage vows.

Joyce

The Catholic School girl in me is confused too............   

Where do you think we got the idea that it's NOT okay to kill, steal, etc.?

 I just want to bring up something no one has mentioned (I don't think at least).  It's NOT okay to steal, kill, etc and is illegal regardless of religion.  It is not okay to do these things because it is affecting other people's rights.  By killing someone, you take away their right to life, which is and should be illegal.  I really don't think it's valid to compare these 'morals' to morals regarding homosexuality.  The government needs to protect citizens and their rights. 
 

 What do you guys think of Elton John's statement about Prop8?

http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2008-11-12-elton-john_N.htm

In December 2005, John and Furnish tied the knot in a civil partnership ceremony in Windsor, England. But, clarified the singer, "We're not married. Let's get that right. We have a civil partnership. What is wrong with Proposition 8 is that they went for marriage. Marriage is going to put a lot of people off, the word marriage."

John and Furnish, and their two cocker spaniels Marilyn and Arthur, were in town for Monday's annual benefit for the Elton John AIDS Foundation.

"I don't want to be married. I'm very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership," said John. "The word marriage, I think, puts a lot of people off. You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships."

fuzzy_dogs_mom

ron2

In the list of commandments it says that man shall not lie down with man, as he does with woman.

Not trying to start anything here (lol) but exactly which one of the commandments would that be?  I ask because as a product of many years of Catholic education, the only commandment that I can recall having anything to do with who sleeps with who is "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and adultery, as far as I know, is breaking your marriage vows.

Joyce

It isn't in the The Big Ten--it's in the Old Testament listed as a law (I can't remember the book exactly), because there were a set of laws that the Jews had to abide by.  The truth is that most of these laws are not followed today because Christ's coming was the beginning of a new covenant.  The 10 Commandments are still to be respected, but Christ came to free people from the nit-pickyish laws that the Jewish leaders enforced.    

jenn52

 What do you guys think of Elton John's statement about Prop8?    "We're not married. Let's get that right. We have a civil partnership."   "The word marriage, I think, puts a lot of people off. You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships."

In the United Kingdom "civil partnerships" are legally exactly the same as "marriage".

This is from Wikipedia.
Civil partnerships in the United Kingdom, granted under the Civil Partnership Act 2004, give same-sex couples rights and responsibilities identical to civil marriage. Civil Partners are entitled to the same property rights as married opposite-sex couples, the same exemption as married couples on inheritance tax, social security and pension benefits, and also the ability to get parental responsibility for a partner's children,^[2] as well as responsibility for reasonable maintenance of one's partner and their children, tenancy rights, full life insurance recognition, next-of-kin rights in hospitals, and others. There is a formal process for dissolving partnerships akin to divorce.

That's a HUGE difference.  Here in the US, civil unions are completely different.  They are offered by a few states with limited protections.

I have said earlier, I dont' really care what it's called.  As long as it's legally THE SAME as marriage.   

sillysally

It isn't in the The Big Ten--it's in the Old Testament listed as a law (I can't remember the book exactly), because there were a set of laws that the Jews had to abide by.  The truth is that most of these laws are not followed today because Christ's coming was the beginning of a new covenant.  The 10 Commandments are still to be respected, but Christ came to free people from the nit-pickyish laws that the Jewish leaders enforced.    

Cool.  Thanks.  I'll just stick with the Big 10 then, or at least most of  them.

Joyce