Help me understand.............

thank you ladies.  No, neither of you has made me feel under attack.

I really wish that I could get past the M word.  I can live with whatever it's called, that isn't a problem.  And, yes, I'm older so that might be some of my perspective.  Again, though, in my view, the M word does have a lot to do with other peoples objections.

From my own standpoint, yes, I really should be able to chuck the hang up with the word, because to me it is spiritual, and again, not religious, commitment.  And, regardless of gender, people who want to make that sort of spiritual commitment, ought to be able to do so. 

Ironically I think the same way about common law marriage as I do "gay marriage"  and frankly regular marriage...  It all comes down to a deep commitment between two people.  Legally I find it offensive that other people believe they have the right to determine what it is two people share.  Do I get annoyed when people bring kids into the world without the benefit of a last name, well yes then you are taking it from two people to more and that is becoming a tricky and rough patch to cross.  Many companies insurances and benefits do not cover a child unrecognized by a legal piece of paper. This is wrong on so many levels I can't list them all.  However people who have been together through thick and thin, have managed to share adventures and adversities should not need people not in their home telling them how to live, die or love.

You know the old joke, "why shouldn't Gays have the right to marry? They should have the right to be as miserable as the rest of us!" 

Bonita of Bwana

glenmar

I really wish that I could get past the M word.  I can live with whatever it's called, that isn't a problem.  And, yes, I'm older so that might be some of my perspective.  Again, though, in my view, the M word does have a lot to do with other peoples objections.

If it makes you feel better, 2 of my friends who share your views are 23 and 24 years old, respectively. 

I'm not going to get far into this at all because I know if i I do it'll end badly, but I do not support gay marriage. Comparing the "gay rights" movement to the civil rights movement is ridiculous IMO.

It's hard for people like me who are against gay marriage because people automatically assume you are a "hater" or closed-minded. Not in the least. I'm quite open minded, actually. It would be nice to live in a world where EVERYONE could be made happy, but there has to be some boundaries set. We can't throw out morals and open the doors for anything just because it's the perceived "nicer" route to take.

that's probably all I'll say in this thread.

jenn52

Sorry, I guess I am just old fashioned but I still believe a penis was designed for a vagina. It's the only way to naturally conceive children. I believe men and women complement each other for a relationship in a different way that a woman/woman or man/man do. I believe children thrive best with a mother and a father. I think the way God designed it was the right way. Let's also not forget that every other civilization that has allowed immorality and corruption to run rampant has met demise.

Sorry, but if anti-gay activists where really concerned with making laws governing morality they would lobby as hard for laws that would make adultery and extra-martial sex illegal as they have to stop gay marriage.  At least that might make a difference.  Gays are not going to stop being gay because they cannot marry. Cheaters, on the other hand, might think twice if they had a legal consequence to worry about.  If makes you wonder if the goal is preserving morality or fostering discrimination/fear mongering..... 

That fact that you believe that is fine.  Stay faithful in your marriage, have a family, raise children, etc.  The issue comes when you decide that you need to impose these beliefs on others.  You cannot control other peoples' sexuality and life decisions--that just does not work in a free society. 
 

I don't care WHO you sleep with, I care about what kind of person you ARE.  There are plenty of straight people I wouldn't save from a burning building because they are such heinously evil people. By some people's reckoning, a straight person is always preferable to a gay person, even if the straight person is akin to Hitler and the gay person is a saint!

I believe that anyone should be able to marry whomever they love and, yes, that includes polygamy and polyandry. As long as the people involved are consenting adults, WHO THE H*LL CARES??? 

I have gay family members in my immediate family.  I would be perfectly happy to take my DSs to their...civil union ceremonies...or marriage ceremonies...or whatever other ceremony they might have. Everyone should be entitled to the same rights, no matter who they love.

Also, the Bible says many things that are not necessarily followed any more.  Remember, "Thou shalt no commit adultery"? Just because some of us do not do this does not mean it doesn't happen.  How about, "Man shall not spill his seed upon the ground"? We all know that masturbation happens every second of every day, so this isn't followed any more by the majority of the world's population, be they Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan, or any other religion. We won't even get into, "Thou shalt not kill".

As for gays not being able to have children, I personally know of a gay man married to a hetero woman.  They have two children who were conceived the "old fashioned way". Yes, gay men CAN impregnate women.

Let's not forget that approximately ten percent of the population is gay (roughly).  Soooo, somebody in your immediate circle of friends is most likely gay, as is one of your coworkers, children's teachers, a relative or the guy bagging you groceries. "They" are everywhere and, for the most part, are just living their lives like the heteros are. Let them be and things will be FINE.

glenmar

I'm sorry that I ever entered this thread because I don't appreciate having every post ripped apart by others who don't agree.  I tried to honestly and openly "help me understand".

Glenda, you replied to folks who don't appear to be ripping your posts apart.  If you're replying to my comments quoting you, they are not intended to rip apart your post.  Just to highlight that it looks like gays are "doing it right" if they're supposed to "assimilate".  (Personally, I say be as flamboyant, neutral, WHATEVER YOU WANT so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.) 

I DO agree that the WORD marriage seems to be the hang up for ANYONE who is hesitant to agree to gay "marriage".  I suspect that reasoning is a MAJORITY of the reason why the measure passed so that "something else" could be created to define gay unions.  Unfortunately, I think that's backwards because it creates the "separate but equal" theory which we know is NOT equal  For that reason, I'm thinking that if people want to afford legal rights to anyone regardless of orientation then maybe ALL reference to "marriage" should be changed to civil union and let marriage stay a religious/spiritual word and allow "civil union" to stand in the place of "legal protection for a unified couple" or some such sentiment.

Hope that helps.  It's a hot topic, people have hot reactions, but I think most are trying to keep it just to the TOPIC.  I absolutely promise you my own post was in no way geared at you as a person or with any malice.  Just sort of bugged by the idea that the way someone appears needs to change to appease others.... because clearly that doesn't work. :)

Moderator checking in again

Just wanted to commend all for being civil thusfar, and working thru difficult patches and feelings this thread might bring up. Bear in mind that IMO at least...no one on this thread is a bad person or one that we'd think twice about in many cases....asking advice or input from on any number of things.

We all have respect for one another and I am proud of that. We got thru the elections in the main...still on speaking terms LOL. Let's keep the vibe of respect going....wheee!

Good job all!

Gay used to mean carefree, happy-go-lucky, as in "the Gay Nineties." Now, it means homosexual. Big whoopee...

Therefore, marriage will change to include same gender couples. Or we'll call all of it civil unions and people can call it marriage in their church ceremony. It's going to happen. One day, sooner or later, it will happen. Strom Thurmond over on the east coast can't live forever. Neither can the people in California that would even manage to make this bill pass. Eventually, it will tumble down.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

 Banning of gay marriage is a religious opinion and violates the First Amendment. And freedom of speech.

We all have morals. But we cannot allow the govt to push the credo of one religion. If we are going to allow that, then we need to allow my pagan friends to petition the government for a national holiday for Sowain (Samhain). And one for Rama Dan (for the muslims in the crowd.) Let's put in some Old Testament practices, too.

In the Old Testament, women going through their monthly cycle had to live in a separate camp because they were "unclean." Just how much of the King James Holy Bible do we want in our govt.? No, I'm not bible-bashing but if we're going to decide state or federal law based on the Bible, then we need another national vote on what to put in or keep out and more importantly, is that even constitutionally legal. The state cannot establish one religion over another. Period, paragraph, new book.

Can I give a shout out for the Apocrypha, books deemed by the Council of Nicae as not suitable for the Bible? Some friends of mine are known as Sumerians. Can they get at least a token nod? I've known a few people who pay homage to Odin, and he does look dashing with that eyepatch.

So this is also a freedom of speech issue, which I have said before.

Or was no one listening when Obama said we are all americans, black, white, brown, yellow, gay, straight?

End of rant. Gay marriage is on the way. And the earth spins around the sun like it always has.

Peace, Love, and Understanding from the guy who voted republican this time.

 Ron........you're awsome !  I wish I was as well read (and could remember it all) as you are.

So we have established that equal rights for everybody is a good thing.

That the word "marriage" is causing some discomfort for some folks when applied to same gender couples.  

I have also decided I like the term "same gender" more than I like the term "same sex".

That everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, morals, ethics, religious teachings.......but the law needs to remain separate from any religious influence in order to be equal for all. 

I also echo Gina's applause of all of us.  We have made it through 128 messages in a potentially disasterous thread without anybody getting out of control.      Thank you all for your insight.

This issue will come up for a vote again.  There will be groups that will go to all kinds of effort to strike it down.  This time it was California.  There were groups from other states that spent millions to spread lies and create fear.  This time the lies won.  I hope next time, we'll be stronger than the lies.

jenn52

Sorry, I guess I am just old fashioned but I still believe a penis was designed for a vagina. It's the only way to naturally conceive children.

Are you saying that you never have anything besides (sorry for the crudeness) penis-in-vagina sex? You never have protected sex? Because Jenn, come on, that's unnatural...if you're not trying ONLY to conceive a child, no sex for you! Cripes.

jenn52

I believe men and women complement each other for a relationship in a different way that a woman/woman or man/man do.

Right, because you're straight! That's true for you, and it's true for me too! Doesn't mean it's true for everyone! There are some people who were undeniably born gay. An opposite-gender partner would NOT complement them!

jenn52

I believe children thrive best with a mother and a father.

And it's fine and dandy for you to believe this, but how many children don't HAVE a mother AND a father? I grew up with only one parent. I know TONS of people who did as well. Are you saying two parents of the same sex is actually worse than only one parent? Seriously?

jenn52

Let's also not forget that every other civilization that has allowed immorality and corruption to run rampant has met demise.

I find this line disturbing. Your morals are not my morals, nor the morals of many other people. Please do not attempt to inflict them upon us.

chelsea_b

jenn52

Sorry, I guess I am just old fashioned but I still believe a penis was designed for a vagina. It's the only way to naturally conceive children.

Are you saying that you never have anything besides (sorry for the crudeness) penis-in-vagina sex? You never have protected sex? Because Jenn, come on, that's unnatural...if you're not trying ONLY to conceive a child, no sex for you! Cripes.

Well, protected sex is penis-in-vagina sex, just with a barrier of some sort.  

Actually, there nothing that she is saying is untrue here, unless my biology teacher and own experience have failed greatly.  The purpose of an organism first is to survive, and then to reproduce.  Genitalia was not just a random occurrence that happened to work out.  There is a purpose behind it.  

jenn52

I think the way God designed it was the right way. Let's also not forget that every other civilization that has allowed immorality and corruption to run rampant has met demise.

 Stating gays have deystroyed the great civilizations of the past is like saying hurricanes are obviously caused by the lack of singing birds because birds are never around prior to a huge storm.

FWIW, protected sex can also be oral sex with a barrier.

I thought safe sex meant wearing a helmet and leathers. No wonder that didn't go so well ...