Spinoff: Breeders - When do you say "no"?

I am really one to go on situation rather than concrete immovables.

I know no fence might bother me...BUT it's not a knockout..it's a "let's talk about your plans for containment.." that's how you find out oh, you live in a duplex/condo and the dog will be inside or onleash aside from at the off leash enclosed park.

Many pets gone thru in previous is a red flag...rehomes done for reasons that raise my eyebrows...that sort of thing,. Again...let's talk about it..

I don't sell personally to minors, sans parental involvement...because I cannot have a contract that is legally binding with them. I will speak to them and make arrangements and such but I want to finalize things with...and have convo's innumerable with...their parents/guardians. Again...situational...emancipated minor with a steady job and stable living situation? Let's talk about it...

Unfixed of opp sex in the same household...esp same breed or designer companion breed, or unfixed dogs in general when we're discussing a pet puppy....raises my eyebrows...let's talk about it.

Someone getting a dog for themselves and seeming to thnk others in the home won't be affected....that's always an odd one. If you live with others, even roommates...they WILL be affected...so let's talk about it..

Other "let's talk about it..." 

People who think a contract is unnecessary or "overkill" for "just a dog"...people who try to bargain down my already reasonable price on a pet or show pup.

People buying a "present" for someone...

There are more but really...let's talk can lead to a no placement or a placement...it all depends. I try to give folks a chance...I've been there, lots to learn and I try to keep it down to earth and realistic.

I'm not sure I count since I don't breed and don't plan on it (besides owning studs), but I have recently gone through the process and spent all day with my breeder yesterday.  Twice she received cold calls from prospective buyers so I eaves dropped on those conversations and asked her some questions about how she "picks" people.  For one, she's told me several times that she always has way more demand than supply.  For Nikon's litter, she turned away at least a dozen homes she would have been happy with.  Based on my experience with his litter, I think what she does is keeps a pool of good homes, and really doesn't make the final decision until the pups are starting to go home.  Even within one litter there is a huge range of drive and temperament, and it's really important that people get the right dog for them.  This is a breed bred to be very high in drive, very energetic, a working dog.  I've seen what happens when breeders and buyers disregard this and often it can turn out ugly.  So some people just don't know until the pups are 8-9 weeks that they are or are not getting one.  Also, she doesn't breed to sell dogs so she keeps some for herself.  Sometimes the ones she wants to keep need specialized attention.  One of Nikon's brothers was kept by the breeder but he's going to an experienced home in Washington.  The breeder kept him for herself, but since then decided that Nikon was really the male pick as far as what she is looking for in her lines and if she breeds a dog from this litter it will be Nikon, so I am keeping Nikon and the brother is going to live far away.  Nikon is completely mine (I don't co-own him), but if I agree to use him in her breeding program, we are much closer than the other male dog's new home.  Another thing that happened was one of the puppies died.  A family that purchased one of the girls returned her because she was too intense and energetic for them.  This returned puppy went to live with the family whose puppy died and they are a great match.  As far as me and Nikon, I wasn't 100% sure I was even getting a puppy at all, let alone which one, until the day I picked him up.  The females had been pretty much sorted out but me, the breeder, and another couple (all three of us vying for the males left) literally spent hours making the final decision.

So in this case, there really was no set criteria.  Some of us rent, some of us don't have fences, some are older, some are young like me, some have kids and some don't, some have never had a GSD before while some have had them for decades, some pups will be spayed/neutered, others will not, some will work towards high levels of titling and others will be "just" pets.  When you meet the person, you get a much better idea of who belongs with who. 

My experience has been, at least with this particular breeder, that it all depends on the individual dogs and the individual family/person. I can tell you the reasons I got Nikon - he was the most laid back male and his size.  Since he is my first male GSD and we plan on keeping him intact, she did not want to give me one of the pushier males.  Also, she knew I planned to show him and compete with him, and she decided he had the best conformation and most correct type.  Also again like I said she decided if she uses a male to breed to it will be Nikon and she wanted to keep him close.  She knew I did not want a long coat because I have enough trouble with Coke's coat, so that narrowed it down to three and we picked based on what I've already said.  I have been with the other puppies several times now and I am satisfied that Nikon is in fact the right pick for me.  I would not trade him for any of those other dogs and I don't watch the other pups and think "Gee I wish mine was more like that one..."  No, I watch them and think "Wow, I'm so glad I got Nikon!" lol.

The breeder did tell me she used to be against first time GSD owners but changed her mind because you NEED new blood in dog fancy or things only get worse, there are no new ideas, no people pressuring breeders to clean up their act, a dwindling spirit of healthy competition, etc.

I can tell you that I what did not factor in - rent vs. own, fence/no fence, what I feed my dogs, whether I had a GSD before, what vets and vaccine protocol I use, who I train with.  The breeder will give me her advice on any of these but did not and has not held it against me.  Now maybe we are lucky in that for the most part we agree without even consulting each other.  Maybe for other people she WOULD use these criteria, I don't know, but it does prove that even the criteria change on an individual basis. 

All of the Alaskan Klee Kai breeders require you to fill out a rather extensive questionnaire before they will even TALK to you about puppies or prices.  It basically covers your past pet experience, how you heard about the breed, why you want one, what you plan on doing with your dog (training, etc.), how much it will be left alone, if you have a fenced yard, etc.

Each breeder no doubt has their own standards.  Kaiser's breeder sold him to me knowing that I lived in an apartment without a yard -- but that was likely overrode by the fact that I do so much training (agility) and that my dogs come to work with me (the fact that I told her I planned on purchasing a house this year didn't hurt as well, I'm sure).

I know that if I were reading through one of those questionnaires regarding my own puppies I would be looking for a general vibe and level of knowledge.  I doubt I'd allow a Klee Kai to go to a first time dog owner -- first time with that BREED, of course -- it's a rare breed and you can't expect people to have been raised with one.  I have a feeling that if I get into breeding on the female side of things that I'd be very, very picky about where my puppies go.  I'm contemplating letting Kaiser be a stud dog in the future and thankfully I don't have near the responsibility as the owner of the female.  Placing puppies correctly can be quite a task, I'm sure.

KarissaKS

All of the Alaskan Klee Kai breeders require you to fill out a rather extensive questionnaire before they will even TALK to you about puppies or prices. 

If I ever were to breed, I think I would be very concerned with finding about about the prospective buyer's previous/current dogs, the amount of time spent with their current dogs, their level of knowledge about the breed (it shows they did research before applying), and what they plan on doing with the dog.

I'm unsure if I'd ever be able to breed though, as I'm sure I would want to keep all the pups! 

 I haven't bred a dog, yet, but I hope to, at some point. My breed of choice is a toy sized dog, and known for being escape artists. I'd also hope that some of the puppies in my litter would be hairless. That said, a home that would keep one of the pups outside would be an automatic no.

Otherwise, I'll probably be more of a "let's talk about it" type. 

 I've been turned down by a breeder and I thought it was perfectly reasonable.  She was a good friend and we've remained good friends too.  She was concerned because I don't consider my home a "forever home" no matter what - if I feel it's better for the dog, I will find a better home than mine - as there ARE many better homes than mine, for many dogs.  We differ in that philosophy - she preferred to place her dogs in "forever" homes.  That was fine, of course.  I do the same thing when I place rescues and dogs I've trained to sell, AND my own that are moving on.

So there's lots of reasons to say "no" and it's not always anything to do with whether a home/family is going to be a good dog owner or not.  Sometimes it's simply about your expectations for the pups you produce, your style of dealing with puppy buyers, what you hope to dictate about your pups' future lives, and many other factors. 

Everything that Becca and Gina said. :P

Plus, I'd add one more- I wouldn't place a pup with someone that wants to feed a vegan (or vegetarian, for that matter) diet. If you don't want a pet to eat meat, you need to get something other than a dog. (I can't believe this ever would come up, but I got an adoption inquiry on one of the rescue pups I posted earlier today..... wanted me to know how healthy her other vegan dog is, but.. just.. no.)

I'm sure I could think of more. :P          

brookcove

... She was concerned because I don't consider my home a "forever home" no matter what - if I feel it's better for the dog, I will find a better home than mine - as there ARE many better homes than mine, for many dogs. 

 I feel the exact same. Sometimes it's not clear until you actually have the dog whether it's a good "fit" or not. To me it's not like children, because the dogs never go out and live on their own. If there's another home where the dog and owner are a better fit, then I think that's in the best interests of everyone. Gingerbread is definitely a "forever" dog for me.

The one thing I would not compromise on is someone who wants an outside dog. Some breeds of dog can do okay with being an outdoor dog in some situations, if they have companionship. But my breed (Samoyeds) make lousy outside dogs. They need to be with their family.

The other non-negotiable is that if it's a couple, both of them need to be in favor of getting a puppy. And no "getting a dog for the kids." The adults must be the ones wanting the dog.

Other things would raise a big red flag, like no fenced yard. It's not an absolute deal breaker, but they would have to work hard to convince me that they have the level of commitment to take the dog out on leash at all hours in all weather.

Personally, I don't like using a questionaire to screen buyers. IMHO it's too easy for somebody to check the "correct" box or give the good sounding answer. I like to have a long conversation with people. I start out with open questions like "What made you decide on a Samoyed?" "What do you know about the breed?" That gives me an idea if this is the right breed for them, and I can correct an misconceptions they might have. Then I ask what they imagine life to be like with the dog, what kind of activities they want to pursue if any, and so on. I take notes as we are talking, and I make sure that certain topics are covered like where the dog stays, their lifestyle, how they will handle grooming, etc.

In a conversation like this, I think it's much much harder for people to deceive you and you get a better "feel" about the situation.

stormyknight

I'm curious to hear the reasons as I was just denied a puppy from a breeder flat out because I have other dogs. I was told that she will not place her pups in a home that has more than one other dog in it and will not place a pup in a home with a dog of the same sex (no same sex placement I can understand to an extent). I thought this was a bit odd (my dogs are UTD on vaxes, fixed, trained or being trained currently for CGC), but perhaps it is more normal that I imagined?

I've never heard of such a thing with the breeders I know and/or contacted when I was looking.

I was turned down once by a rescue because I put my Senior dog down when he couldn't walk anymore at age 16.  I was also turned down by one Swissy breeder because Cody (my son) was only 3 years old and they preferred children to be 10 and over.  After having River and seeing the issues between a large breed dog and a small child I now understand that logic.

Personally,  it would depend on the breed.  I think the size of dog and what the home life will be like is a major concern for both large and small breeds.  My pug breeder was hesitant to allow Hailie to home with us after meeting River due his size compared to her size and with good reason - River did hurt her leg accidentally in play when she was only 10 weeks old.

Although there are things that are apparent I think each dog, each family and there interviews should lead to good vibes.  The overall placement should be made on a case to case basis.

Really interesting Question.

I am pretty picky and I adjust my breeding program to make sure I never have to accept an applicant because I have too many puppies.

I do not place in expectant homes.  The probability that once baby comes life will turn it's self upside down is a given. ( I do place in homes with small children if the vibe is right)

I do Not place in double white collar homes.... Chances are huge that neither will adjust their work load to accomodate a dog. They may think they will but few people work hard to put themselves through school and then turn around after staring in their chosen fields only to say gee I need a shorter day because my dog is lonely..... One white collar, one blue collar  fine but the hours have to be flexible in the occupations of at least one.

I do not sell to or for children. If the parent does not want the dog it is a no go... kids go to college and fall in love..

I do not sell as a gift. No birthday surprizes or Christmas bundle of joy from our kennel.

I do not sell to ranchers and farmers, my breed is large and needs to be in the house. Folks who deal in livestock tend to think big dogs live outside... not all but most. I reespect their rights to opinions I simply do not put my pups at risk of having to deal with them.

I do not sell to people who tell me about the nice dog house they have in the yard..... again my dogs are house dogs.

I do not sell to people who stress their incomes, jobs, size of their homes, and their bank account. If you are comfortable enough to think of buying a dog from me , then your demeanor tells me if your are materialistic or into the soul of the dog that will happily follow you anywhere and fart at times....

I do not sell to folks with a shaky income. I have been one of thoes folks, I understand how much I would have loved a dog, I also know it was not the right time. If I had to choose between something my kids needed and the level of dog food I want my dogs fed  it was a no brainer.  So I avoid that possibilty for the dogs.  I do not want to think because I could not make a tough call my pup may have to pay for it.

I do not sell to folks without a plan... ie my New York pups have teams of dog walkers and booked days for the doggie day spa and the doggie day care....  My California  pups have a revolving routine of "vacations" with an "Aunt" another dog owner, they keep this owner happy and feeling important and loved my pups do not end up being boarded when the job takes her out of country.

I do not place with Active Military. I respect these folks with my whole heart but I was a Navy Brat , how well I remember the challenge of keeping my spotted sibling with us.

I do not place with a college student. My breed is not simply big they need attention and do not settle down to couch potatoes till later in life. It is not fair to my pup to live in a crate because someone is taking a bigger class load or it is exam time ...we will not even go into parties.

I do not place with someone who tells me in the first couple of conversations they want to breed......

I do not place with anyone who says they have a wonderful intact PET...they just want another ot be a friend.

Bonita of Bwana

stormyknight

I'm curious to hear the reasons as I was just denied a puppy from a breeder flat out because I have other dogs. I was told that she will not place her pups in a home that has more than one other dog in it and will not place a pup in a home with a dog of the same sex (no same sex placement I can understand to an extent). I thought this was a bit odd (my dogs are UTD on vaxes, fixed, trained or being trained currently for CGC), but perhaps it is more normal that I imagined?

I was also turned down by a breeder for a male pup because I already had a male. She seemed...old school...and was very adamant that two males wouldn't get along and I needed to get a female. When I was searching around more after that, I asked another breeder about the male-male thing and ironically, she told me she wouldn't sell me a female because my male was young and still unneutered at the time. I ended up getting a pup from her, a male, and they get along fine.