Spinoff: Breeders - When do you say "no"?

Bonita of Bwana

I do not place with a college student. My breed is not simply big they need attention and do not settle down to couch potatoes till later in life. It is not fair to my pup to live in a crate because someone is taking a bigger class load or it is exam time ...we will not even go into parties.

I dunno, Bonita, my schedule was a LOT more dog-friendly when I was in college than it is now that I'm out working a 9-to-5! At least in college you can easily visit/walk/etc. the dog between classes most times.

I'm far from a breeder (never have any desire, heh) but for me, the college deal-breakers would be 1) housing. hard to find an apartment for a dog, especially a big one, and almost all college kids have roommates! Plus they often move every year until graduation. 2) post-graduation life changes. college is only a few years, then what? 3) bad influences of friends/lifestyle. most college kids are hanging out with huge groups of friends, people constantly coming and going, and it's just a very busy environment. some dogs can handle it well and thrive (like some dogs can thrive in busy NYC), but others have a hard time with the chaos. Parties aren't much of an issue unless we're talking keeping the dog at a fraternity or something - most people don't have wild and crazy parties in their apartments/dorms, they go to a larger, central location. And they wouldn't bring the dog!

So obviously not all college kids will face the challenges, but as someone who's a fairly recent graduate, I figured I'd offer my spin.

I was also turned down by a breeder for a male pup because I already had a male.

what breed? some breeds this makes sense. I know an akita breeder who has this criterion for a really good reason- akitas don't do well with other dogs of the same sex, as in, they kill them.

Chances are huge that neither will adjust their work load to accomodate a dog. They may think they will but few people work hard to put themselves through school and then turn around after staring in their chosen fields only to say gee I need a shorter day because my dog is lonely..... One white collar, one blue collar  fine but the hours have to be flexible in the occupations of at least one.

See, how this goes?  It's an individual thing.  At different times of my life, including right now, Bonita would not place a pup with me.  When I got my first four dogs, we were newly graduated from school (Patrick with his master's degree, me working on mine), I was teaching, Patrick was holding down two different salaried jobs. 

And of course now I'm one of those livestock people, though I certainly have no problem with large dogs inside.  LOL  I write this as I sit on the very tippy edge of the bed because there's a 10 pound dog, two 35 pound dogs, and one 95 pound dog scootching me off.  I'll admit though that there are two large dogs outside but they sort of couldn't do their jobs from in here.

Again, if Bonita were a close buddy of mine and she still held the line on these limitations - I would have no problem and we'd still be buds.

The purchase of a pup isn't the acquisition of a commodity.  It's the beginning - at least I think so - of a relationship between you/your family, a new dog, and a breeder who will be there to advise and mentor.  Even if you have experience in the breed, as I did, your breeder still has a vision of what their pup's future will be.  If a breeder places a pup against their principles for no real reason, they'll always wonder, if anything goes wrong, whether it is traceable to a mismatch between their expectations and the pup's actual environment.

When Julie turned me down, I learned almost immediately about a breeding that had been done, and the pedigree of the pups would be like re-creations of my old heart dog, Ben.  I hardly knew the breeder, the breeding already had a waiting list before it had even been done, but I contacted them anyway.  I ended up last in line as some buyers pulled out over the course of the pregnancy and it was a nice-sized, healthy litter.  Before they were a week old I knew "Teddy" was mine.  I met him at six weeks, got him at ten and a half weeks, and he did indeed grow to be a reflection of his older house mate.  I see so much of Ben in him.

The timing turned out to be perfect, too.  I was extremely ill most of last year, and he was in no way ready to train.  The pups my friend bred started working right about that time, and now are training and trialing at a high level.  Now that I'm getting all my issues unraveled, Ted's at the peak of his training and in two months when I'm a new person (minus one troublesome major organ) - he'll be ready for intense competition.  Those wonderful pups Julie bred would have sat spinning their wheels at a time when they most needed me to train!

So it all worked out for the good.  There's a story in the Bible where God meets a guy on the road, and unexpectedly, the first thing God says to him is not "Bow down worm!" or, "Hey, why aren't you in church?" or even "Why on earth are you killing Christians?" which is what this guy was on his way to do. 

He said, "Why are you kicking against the goad, you silly man?"  He was comparing him to an ox that was being driven along a dangerous path.  They'd use a sharpened stick to poke the ox on the side where it was steep or rocky, and normally the ox would move away from the discomfort, as that's its instinct.  I do the same thing with my sheep to move them in a chute or sort them - I'll reach out and give their wool a wee tug and they move away from that.  It's a calm interaction. 

But this guy was figuratively continuing on his dangerous or inadvisable path, and kicking uselessly at what he couldn't do anything about - when in fact if he accepted what was unchangeable and paid attention to doing the right thing (the only thing we CAN control) - many lives would have been saved and his path would have been so much easier.

Been there.  Done that.   If anyone wants a t-shirt I've got about a dozen in various sizes - I bought them dearly but I'll give them away! 

mudpuppy

I was also turned down by a breeder for a male pup because I already had a male.

what breed? some breeds this makes sense. I know an akita breeder who has this criterion for a really good reason- akitas don't do well with other dogs of the same sex, as in, they kill them.

In my case it was shelties...you're right, it would make sense with some breeds though.

For the college thing, i think it depends on the specific person. Most of the people i know that own dogs in college aren't AS dedicated as they should be. Ya know, only walk the dog when it's conveinient, etc. But as far as i go, and one of my best friends, we are very dedicated to our dogs. I have cancelled plans because my dogs have been at home too long, and i walk them or take them to the park every day. For a breeder, that would be an extremely tough call.

I will never breed, but i appreciate when breeders will not sell to anyone who has the intention to breed. I also like spay/neuter contracts. I can understand breeders that wont sell to someone with a fenced yard, but in my case- i don't have a fenced yard and i will bet that my dogs get more exercise than most of the dogs in my neighborhood, and personally i am a little uncomfortable with leaving my dogs outside if i'm not there.

So basically i feel the breeder should really get to know the prospective buyer and evalutate whether or not they should get one of their puppies on an individual basis.

My main concern with college students (and I say this as someone who lived in college housing and is still living in rental housing in a college neighborhood) would be the rentals.  Some kids are just so clueless, they have no idea that if you want to get a pet you have to actually check with the landlord and your roommates first.  I can't believe how many animals I see on Craigslist and even on our college board that need to be re-homed because a roommate is allergic, or the landlord doesn't accept dogs (and maybe it's not even their fault - some home owner's insurance will not allow GSDs, pit bulls, etc).

But at the same time I really agree with Megan b/c I think if someone is going to seek out a reputable breeder in the first place, hopefully they are not within the category above.  At least with well bred, healthy GSDs, often the price alone weeds out most people that are not serious or are not a good fit for the breed.

I've never liked the fence rule for GSDs because I see way too many that are left loose outside 24/7 to be the "guard" dog.  They are a breed that wants and needs to be with their people.  There are people with super high drive working line dogs from top lines who live in apartments with no fence or yard, but the dogs are well-balances because of the activities they do WITH their people.

 Thanks everyone for weighing in.  You've all basically said what I feel too, that a lot of it comes down to feeling, and that a reason to say no to one potential buyer is not necessarily a reason to say no to another.  I can see why some breeders have some hard-and-fast rules, but also understand the need to be flexible, not everyone can be the "perfect" puppy buyer but I think a "perfect" attitude can offset some things that might be a concern in a person who's approach isn't the same. 

luvmyswissy

I was turned down once by a rescue because I put my Senior dog down when he couldn't walk anymore at age 16. 

You gotta be kidding?They denied you because you did the humane decent thing?Unbelievable!

Tena

Benedict

  I can see why some breeders have some hard-and-fast rules, but also understand the need to be flexible, not everyone can be the "perfect" puppy buyer but I think a "perfect" attitude can offset some things that might be a concern in a person who's approach isn't the same. 

You know when I talked to my breeder this weekend she mentioned that she has placed dogs with people she did not like, but she knew it was the right home for the dog.  She's had to turn away people she likes to make sure the dog ends up in the right place.

Cita

the college deal-breakers would be 1) housing. hard to find an apartment for a dog, especially a big one, and almost all college kids have roommates! Plus they often move every year until graduation. 2) post-graduation life changes. college is only a few years, then what? 3) bad influences of friends/lifestyle. most college kids are hanging out with huge groups of friends, people constantly coming and going, and it's just a very busy environment. some dogs can handle it well and thrive (like some dogs can thrive in busy NYC), but others have a hard time with the chaos. Parties aren't much of an issue unless we're talking keeping the dog at a fraternity or something - most people don't have wild and crazy parties in their apartments/dorms, they go to a larger, central location. And they wouldn't bring the dog!

Obviously not every person will meet the conceptual view we all hold for any group.  There will be someone in any and everygroup that rises above or falls below the expectations of the general public. But in 30 years of breeding I have found some simple truths. Even as a recent college grad you offered your own deal breakers...something you saw enough to have them really make an impact on your perceptions of the life of college students.  Since I refuse to breed often I can be as I said in the first line of my post, be very picky.    I have mentors who love to have wealthy people apply since they know the dog's future will never include missing a meal, I question them much harder after having placed a pup and taken it back from a very wealthy couple. They were nice as the day is long but not in the end right for my pup.  And I went to a ton of frat parties granted it was in the prehistoric days but yes we often saw dogs, goats and even a pig or two show up !!  We will not discuss the horse or pony that came to a couple of parties or the activities that went on with them there! Don't get me wrong, this was not a back wards little country college..  I went to school in Southern California, at San Diego State.

Bonita of Bwana

Regarding wealthy people, we find we need to be sure the housekeepers and staff are not the ones who are spending the most time with dogs.  (I know my dog trainer will specifically ask if the staff will be spending more day-to-day time because perhaps they should come in for trainer with, or instead of, the owners.)  We often got dogs into rescue from wealthy homes because the staff couldn't deal with the dogs and the owners were rarely around the dogs.

miranadobe

Regarding wealthy people, we find we need to be sure the housekeepers and staff are not the ones who are spending the most time with dogs.  (I know my dog trainer will specifically ask if the staff will be spending more day-to-day time because perhaps they should come in for trainer with, or instead of, the owners.)  We often got dogs into rescue from wealthy homes because the staff couldn't deal with the dogs and the owners were rarely around the dogs.

This was exactly the reason I removed that pup from the home. Despite promises and several times bringing the dog home , training it and then returning it to the owners all it took was a change in houshold staff to cause problems. During the placement interviews mom had been on vacation and showed up several times to leave a really good impression. She sat on a blanket in the yard with her children , wearing jeans and flip flops and coming acrossed like a "regular" mom. The staff was never mentioned. Later the calls were always Zeke won't mind the nanny, au pair, housekeeper, gardener etc, etc

Upon my taking him back they later called , not to check up on him but to ask training questions for the small mutt the had gotten at the pound to replace him with. Apparently chasing the children was not restricted to my large breed of hound the *** a poo mix did it equally well and it was not housebroken.

When giving my list I may have failed to mention it is not carved into stone, but it is a guideline that I can trust. If I do not get an exceptional vibe off of an applicant the process goes no further. And when I do get a good vibe, I will bend the rules to check them out.

 But it is a simple fact......."some people ...?" ......sigh

Bonita of Bwana

Hum..   so as a breeder would you elect to sell a puppy to President Elect Obama, white collar - very busy?  He has promised his girls a new puppy for the white house.  Who will take care of that puppy?  I am just curious if the president elect would be an exception to those of you who say, I do not sell pups to white collar, busy scheduled people?

I voted for Obama but no I would not place one of my pups in the white house, would not matter if it was Obama or another person. It would not be to my puppies benefit that they were in the lime light.  What part of I breed rarely and can be very picky for the benefit of my puppies was I unclear on?

Bonita of Bwana

Oh my gosh!  I was thinking the exact same thing when I heard him deliver the message to his daughters that they are getting a puppy!  They haven't yet decided where they'll go to school (day school?  regular school?  boarding school?), and they don't know yet what their own schedules will be like.

The last time the President added a dog to his dogless household, the household staff did indeed end up being the dog's caretakers.  And it ended rather badly.  I don't think I'd put a dog into that situation. 

The Presidents who go to the White House already being dog lovers - fanciers of particular breeds usually, or with a beloved family pet in tow - that is different as they are already "dog people" and used to incorporating their dogs into their public and private lives both.   It's the difference between walking to Air Force One across the lawn with the family pet frisking at their feet, off leash because to the dog or dogs - they are the First Dog Mom and Dad! - and the dog being led across the lawn on leash for fear he'll make a dash in some random direction.

I don't understand the need to add a dog when one becomes Pres.  It's like saying without a wife/husband, the White House would be incomplete.  A dog shouldn't be a gift for being good on the campaign trail, or a political symbol.  It's okay to have the First Cat, or the First Bird, or the First Lizard, or no First Pet at all. 

Sorry.  I was a newish rescuer around the time of the Buddy situation and apparently it still rankles a bit.  LOL