Pet Store Puppy

ron2

I think it's presumptuous to say that people who advocate not buying from pet shops as a way to protest against or deplete the revenue of puppy millers, which do exist and no amount of existential shell games can refute, are "lazy" in their advocacy. Sometimes, the most powerful thing you can do is spend your money elsewhere.

And, has as been shown, most often, puppies in a pet store come from a puppy mill. And it is not always possible to target each and every puppy mill. The most effective thing is to not buy the product. I noticed that my gas-lighter question went unanswered.

And in the land of free enterprise, people have a want, people have a means of meeting that want, the twain meet and exchange money. BYB in a parking lot, mill broker with a pet store, drug dealers, mercernaries for hire.

For some people, not buying from a pet store and advising others to not buy from a pet store is the most effective advocacy that can do, whether that meets with approval of the rescue elite, or not.

 

 

Very well put.  And, very civil, too.  The so called "rescue elite" are often called "rescue ***" (guess I can't say that - think Germany WWII) , because they believe that no one should ever buy from a reputable breeder either.  However, if you want a dog with certain predictable traits, you cannot always find them in an available rescue dog or shelter dog.  I have rescued dogs all my life, and bought exactly ONE dog.  To some of the ***, I committed a sin.  But, I did not perpetuate a puppy mill, nor did I buy from a breeder who would not accept the dog back if I die (not everyone returns a dog because it's a nuisance that they don't want it any more).  Nor did I get it from a byb who only wanted my Visa card, and didn't care if the dog had hip dysplasia or eye problems.  And, some of the "rescue elite" should look to themselves when the dogs they place in homes are unsuitable for those homes.  Many times, I have had to deal with people who only wanted a nice pet.  Instead, they ended up with a "save them all" dog that chews up their window and door frames from separation anxiety, or bites someone because they are food aggressive, or is so undersocialized that they won't come out from under the kitchen table for six months.  Gimme a break - these people are going to get a puppy the next time (and maybe from a pet store).  Why? Because they had a bad rescue experience, thanks to some of the "elite".  So, there's more than enough blame in this game.  Instead of taking this out on each other, how about working together to end the circumstances that lead to all these consequences??? You want people to be advocates, let them advocate in their own ways, so long as part of that goal is met.

 

Can't remove demand, it is there and always will be.  Competition is the right solution but when one party does not want to compete then they contribute to keeping the other business alive.  As I keep saying, it is a breeder problem, not the public's.

spiritdogs

...because they believe that no one should ever buy from a reputable breeder either.  However, if you want a dog with certain predictable traits, you cannot always find them in an available rescue dog or shelter dog.

For me, both statements, not true...which means I am not an elite rescuer.

I have rescued dogs all my life, and bought exactly ONE dog.  To some of the ***, I committed a sin.  But, I did not perpetuate a puppy mill, nor did I buy from a breeder who would not accept the dog back if I die (not everyone returns a dog because it's a nuisance that they don't want it any more).  Nor did I get it from a byb who only wanted my Visa card, and didn't care if the dog had hip dysplasia or eye problems.

I guess the operating word is "perpetuate" because only one dog was purchased which is probably similar to what the average JQP does.  So since this is being claimed as legitamate excuse why can't it be applied to others?

I guess Blizzard and Drizzle's breeder would be labeled byb because the breeder sold me littermates and one was deaf and crossed-eyed.  I paid with cash, same price for both and not with a VISA card. 

I wonder if the poster would have been so quick to recommend the rescue of Sheba if a little research (a phone call) would have discovered the dog has hip dysplasia and UI, very obvious conditions to see.  See this is what happens when you act on the recommendations of others and you think they did some research.  The dog's condition did not matter to my rescue group since they are not life threatening.

And, some of the "rescue elite" should look to themselves when the dogs they place in homes are unsuitable for those homes.  Many times, I have had to deal with people who only wanted a nice pet.  Instead, they ended up with a "save them all" dog that chews up their window and door frames from separation anxiety, or bites someone because they are food aggressive, or is so undersocialized that they won't come out from under the kitchen table for six months. 

Further proof that I am not a elite rescuer because the above has not happened.  All knowledge and experience is passed on to the new ower.

I agree Anne.  Rescuing and owning an intentionally bred dog are not mutually exclusive to me.  At present I have four pets from rescue, that only includes the pets I own personally and not ones that have passed or ones I have fostered.  But it feels weird to even have to SAY that.  Anyway, a few people have asked me about Nikon, b/c he was bred in Germany, obviously from a breeder and not a rescue.  My answer is that if I had not committed to Nikon (which I did before he was even conceived) then I would still only have two dogs.  I lose a lot of respect for people that try to tell me I "killed" a dog in a shelter because I got Nikon (and I'm not talking about people here but people I know have said things to that effect).  I did not kill anything, in fact if Nikon hadn't been born, I would NOT have gotten a third dog from a shelter, rescue, or ANYWHERE.  It also irks me that the people who will say such things to my face really don't do much with animals besides getting one from a shelter and waving that flag in everyone's face.  I know someone who challenges my decision every time it comes up and yet I am the one that fosters animals, is active in rescue, volunteered at the animal shelter, and get 9 out of 10 of my pets from a rescue or shelter.  I mean, I don't expect people to be active in AR or really do anything with dogs besides their own, but at the same time I can't help but snort when people throw that in my face and challenge me with that when I do a lot more than they do, I just don't feel the need to tell the world about it every 5 minutes.  Most of the decent breeders I know are more active in rescue than these self-righteous types.

Competition is the right solution but when one party does not want to compete then they contribute to keeping the other business alive.  As I keep saying, it is a breeder problem, not the public's.

it's impossible for a reputable breeder to "compete" with a puppy mill. The only way an ethical, reputable breeder could compete with a puppy mill is to become one.

DPU

Competition is the right solution but when one party does not want to compete then they contribute to keeping the other business alive.  As I keep saying, it is a breeder problem, not the public's.

 

Actually, I kind of agree with this, except I don't see it as a "problem".  Good breeders don't see themselves as in "competition" with any other person or organization, the only competition is within their own program to produce better dogs to better the breed.  It seems you are saying that breeders are sometimes very exclusive as far as who gets what dogs so even people that want a dog from a reputable breeder don't always get one and might turn to a mill dog/pet store.  That I can agree with.  But, I don't see this as a "problem", as I don't think anyone has any expectation or duty to provide dogs to anyone but themselves and whomever they see fit.  Puppy mills and pet stores have their standards just like good breeders have theirs.  They have more demand than supply; it seems mills and pet stores often have the opposite.  If people operate under the assumption that they should be able to walk up to any breeder, sign a contract, and take a dog home within weeks, THAT is what I think is the real problem.  A dog is part of the family, it should be more involved than say, picking out a new refrigerator.

Liesje

Good breeders don't see themselves as in "competition" with any other person or organization, the only competition is within their own program to produce better dogs to better the breed.  It seems you are saying that breeders are sometimes very exclusive as far as who gets what dogs so even people that want a dog from a reputable breeder don't always get one and might turn to a mill dog/pet store. 

Good breeders are not exclusive to hobby breeders.  Remember some, maybe alot of hobby breeder rehome their breeding pair when they serve up their breeding usefullness, some, maybe alot rotate their breeding pair with other hobbyist so the dog has a hobo life.  Some, maybe a lot kill their puppies with the approval of the breed club if the pup is flawed from the standard.  Some, maybe alot experiment with their own personal prefences by changing the physical appearance of the dog.  Some, maybe alot, perform medical procedures on the pups for which they are not qualified or equipped to handle complications.  These breeders don't have breeding programs, they have laboratories, some, maybe alot.

Liesje, I think you are right.  The hobby breeder, if they are honest, may not be in the business of selling puppies and their mission is not to supply puppies.  But I think they want to be in the business when it comes to the money they receive for their pups.  I never understood that since they got the good product, an educated consumer, and exclusive buyers, why they can't charge multiple times what it costs to produce the puppy.  Out of the 4 P's in business they appear to only do great with the Product.

So like Jenns says, what alternatives are available to the average dog lover who wants a pet quality purebred dog that have some assurances in their background.  Instead of the fans of the hobby breeder criticizing the dog lover for their choices and promoting only one vague choice, they should be promoting a change to the choices.  Let the free market work with respect to the 4 or 5 P's, Product-Pricing-Promotion-Place-and product service.   I am sure all suppliers to petshops are not like those depicted as puppymillers, that distinction should be a start to changing the choices.

DPU

Liesje, I think you are right.  The hobby breeder, if they are honest, may not be in the business of selling puppies and their mission is not to supply puppies.  But I think they want to be in the business when it comes to the money they receive for their pups.  I never understood that since they got the good product, an educated consumer, and exclusive buyers, why they can't charge multiple times what it costs to produce the puppy.  Out of the 4 P's in business they appear to only do great with the Product.

 

Um, I hardly call it a "business" when they are not even breaking even, lol.  Yeah, it IS amazing they don't charge 2, 3, 4x the price they do, huh?  That's why they are hobbyists, not commercial breeding kennels.  You are applying a business/marketing principle to something that is not a business and never intended to be marketed as such, so yeah, it's not really going to make any sense when you look at it that way... A pet store on the other hand IS a business, and they DO often charge 4x what the dogs are really worth (and get away with it because dogs are "priceless" to people).

Liesje

Um, I hardly call it a "business" when they are not even breaking even, lol.  Yeah, it IS amazing they don't charge 2, 3, 4x the price they do, huh?  That's why they are hobbyists, not commercial breeding kennels. 

So they don't charge what they can charge because they are a hobbyist and then complain and whine they are losing money.  I work for qualified credentialed scientist and yeah some have absolutely no business sense either, even at the basic levels.

 DPU it's not a business.  If it was, then money would be foremost in their thoughts, not the welfare of the dog.

 

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I know that its a tricky paradox for some minds to wrap around, but some people, including me, do not want to line the pockets of people who simply want money.  We want to purchase from someone who's No. 1 priority is the dog they have whelped, for its entire life.  Such sentiments hardly make good business sense... but they do mean that said puppy is in a win win situation. 

DPU

Liesje

Um, I hardly call it a "business" when they are not even breaking even, lol.  Yeah, it IS amazing they don't charge 2, 3, 4x the price they do, huh?  That's why they are hobbyists, not commercial breeding kennels. 

So they don't charge what they can charge because they are a hobbyist and then complain and whine they are losing money.

 

Who is whining about losing money?  I would steer clear of breeders doing that, talking about their dogs like they are a financial burden.  No thanks.

I do a lot of things where I "lose" money, and yet, I keep doing it because.....I like it!  I spent a lot of money on cameras because I love photography.  I do some assignments for free and don't complain about it.  Same with web design.  If a non-profit org needs a page developed and I am OK with their mission and vision, then I am happy to offer my services free of charge.  I put a lot of money into my dogs and don't regret any of it.  I am happy to pay the landlord extra money for pets, drive far away to meet other dog lovers and let our dogs play, take my dogs to the vet and get the right treatment when they need it.....  Maybe it's a hard concept to grasp, but a lot of people do various things simply because it brings them joy, doing it is self-rewarding.  But again, this has nothing to do with business....

Chuffy

 DPU it's not a business.  If it was, then money would be foremost in their thoughts, not the welfare of the dog.

I know that its a tricky paradox for some minds to wrap around, but some people, including me, do not want to line the pockets of people who simply want money.  We want to purchase from someone who's No. 1 priority is the dog they have whelped, for its entire life.  Such sentiments hardly make good business sense... but they do mean that said puppy is in a win win situation. 

One would have to review tax returns to determine if they are operating as a business, profitable or not.  A good strategy for their business is promoting the quality of the products.  You know "new and improved" sells.  And, one would really have to get into the mind of the puppy producer to determine if the welfare of the dog is foremost.  Afterall, they would be accused of being byb or puppymiller if they admitted otherwise and that would hurt their business with their exclusive established clientele.

Anyway, all this does not matter.  The hobby breeder is not a practical alternative for dog lovers to adopt a petquality puppy, qualfied or not.  So why push it and not other alternatives. 

DPU

One would have to review tax returns to determine if they are operating as a business, profitable or not.  A good strategy for their business is promoting the quality of the products.  You know "new and improved" sells.  And, one would really have to get into the mind of the puppy producer to determine if the welfare of the dog is foremost.  Afterall, they would be accused of being byb or puppymiller if they admitted otherwise and that would hurt their business with their exclusive established clientele.

Anyway, all this does not matter.  The hobby breeder is not a practical alternative for dog lovers to adopt a petquality puppy, qualfied or not.  So why push it and not other alternatives. 

I'm trying really hard to figure out what you are actually trying to promote here. The dogs that selective hobby breeders produce are "new and improved" only if they are actually selectively bred. Are you, someone who is heavily involved in rescue, really advocating that people who are highly selective in their breeding, should be less selective so that they can produce more puppies. Really? Is this because you think that there is a shortage of dogs available now? Seriously? Or, are you, someone heavily involved in rescue, advocating that breeders be less "exclusive" in placing puppies? Is it your experience that gosh darn it, if only breeders would be more cavalier in how they place their puppies, and would stop being so darned picky about finding suitable owners, then by golly, the rescues would be empty? Really? Seriously?

The hobby breeder is a perfectly practical alternative for dog lovers who have suitable homes to adopt pet quality puppies. What on earth gives you the impression that hobby breeders aren't a practical alternative? I'm a qualified dog lover. I guarantee that if I indicated an interest in a puppy of my favorite breed to hobby breeders within my state, I could have a lovely pet quality puppy within six months, at a price that is competitive with the commercial puppy factories. The difference is that my puppy would have been stimulated and socialized from birth, the parents would have had at least basic health screening done, the breeder would guarantee to take back the puppy if I became incapacitated, lost my home, or developed an "allergy" to the dog. In addition, I would know that the parents were raised and kept as house dogs, not as livestock deprived of any social interaction with humans or other dogs. The breeder would know if the parents had suitable temperaments for the breed because s/he and the owner of the stud dog would actually live with the dog, and interact with the dog, and observe the dog's behavior in all sorts of situations beyond whether the dog hides in the back of it's cage for the five minutes of human contact a puppy factor dog gets per day at feeding time. I don't see what problems would be solved by these selective hobby breeders turning into puppy factories in order to compete with them. Once they do that, they are no longer providing an alternative, they are doing the same disservice to dogs that the puppy factories are already doing. What good do you see coming from that?

Well, if we MUST provide alternatives, I'd say look at the local Craigslist, especially if we're advocating for giving dogs who have already been born a better home.  If someone wants a dog right away, doesn't care about pedigree, temperament, or health history, and isn't that concerned with price, that's the way to go, IMO.  Everytime I check Craigslist I'm amazed at how easily I can find any breed I can think up.  You cannot sell dogs on Craigslist, they are dogs that must be re-homed for whatever reason (new baby, moving, allergy, foster dog, doesn't get along with other resident dogs, can't afford it....).

buster the show dog

The difference is that my puppy would have been stimulated and socialized from birth, the parents would have had at least basic health screening done, the breeder would guarantee to take back the puppy if I became incapacitated, lost my home, or developed an "allergy" to the dog. In addition, I would know that the parents were raised and kept as house dogs, not as livestock deprived of any social interaction with humans or other dogs. The breeder would know if the parents had suitable temperaments for the breed because s/he and the owner of the stud dog would actually live with the dog, and interact with the dog, and observe the dog's behavior in all sorts of situations beyond whether the dog hides in the back of it's cage for the five minutes of human contact a puppy factor dog gets per day at feeding time.

Did you get proof for everything you mentioned?  Just because someone says they do such things doesn't mean they actually do it.  The representation of the pup can be the same as of unethical petshop would do.  There is a lot at stake for the breeder who says they don't do what the piece of paper says they should do.  For the petshop dogs I purchased and the byb dog that I think people here have labeled my recent Great Danes, either they had such care or that deprived early care can be easily overcome with subsequent proper handling.  Those that say a dog that has missed out on early socialization and is handicapped for life, just don't have the experience and skill to rehab the dog.  My dogs were perfect and the deaf cross-eye Great Dane that I purchased from the ethical byb was the best and most well behaved dog I ever had.