Pet Store Puppy

DPU

Now who is being so QUITE judgemental.  I can see that your views are based on one relationship and your surface knowledge of that breeder's practice.  But, you are not there every day, every minute so you can't see what really happens and can only take the word of the breeder.  Of course they are only going tell you positive things and gossip about the people they reject for their pups.

Are you serious?!?!  Yeah, I've spent the past several years only ever doing anything with ONE breeder....riiiiiiiiight.  Because you even know me.......That's as ridiculous as me stating you've only ever fostered ONE dog and have a surface knowledge of fostering dogs based on your limited experience.

FWIW, I don't pick dogs or breeders (or my company in general) based on what that one person has to say about him or herself.

Anyway, I'm done.  You've insulted me before but this just takes the cake.

DPU

As you admit, the return policy is not open ended with your breeder and with the petshop pup breeder the return policy is written in the contract.

Admit what?  I don't know any breeders that don't use contracts.  "Not open ended" = having a contract.  Even bad ones have contracts and return policies.  Now what pet store would take a dog back after 2 years, 5 years, 10 years....  I don't know why anyone WOULD return their dog, but the fact is that with a good breeder you CAN (and it's required by the contract).  With pet stores and even rescues....tough luck.  When I adopted Coke they said they could take him back within a month or two but after that I would have to re-home him myself or take him to the shelter.

Liesje

Are you serious?!?!  Yeah, I've spent the past several years only ever doing anything with ONE breeder....riiiiiiiiight.  Because you even know me.......That's as ridiculous as me stating you've only ever fostered ONE dog and have a surface knowledge of fostering dogs based on your limited experience.

Maybe you have learned or can learn a lesson from your offended feelings.  You also don't know me or my exposure to the breeding world, yet you make assertions with no proof.  You don't know all breeders or know all those that sell puppies in any venue.  If you find a breeder with unacceptable practices, target that particular breeder and either stop them from producing puppies or influence their practice, but don't in general harm the petshop puppies already created as your statement of protest. 

Liesje

Admit what?  I don't know any breeders that don't use contracts.  "Not open ended" = having a contract.  Even bad ones have contracts and return policies.  Now what pet store would take a dog back after 2 years, 5 years, 10 years....  I don't know why anyone WOULD return their dog, but the fact is that with a good breeder you CAN (and it's required by the contract).  With pet stores and even rescues....tough luck.  When I adopted Coke they said they could take him back within a month or two but after that I would have to re-home him myself or take him to the shelter.

From your statement, it probably would not make a hill of beans difference if a return policy says its lifetime.  If an owner wants to return the dog after such a long period it is probably beyond the circumstances of the owner or it is for the best that the dog get out of that house.  What dog lover would not step up to help the dog and especially for a dog that they know. 

DPU

  You don't know all breeders or know all those that sell puppies in any venue.  If you find a breeder with unacceptable practices, target that particular breeder and either stop them from producing puppies or influence their practice, but don't in general harm the petshop puppies already created as your statement of protest. 

I don't support reactive approaches like going after breeders I don't like or picketing outside pet stores.  Personally I prefer a more proactive approach.  I have nothing against pet store puppies and as mudpuppy has already pointed out several times they are not harmed.  I don't really care where anyone gets their dogs from as long as they call it like it is.  Buying a puppy from a pet store is financially supporting puppy mills and brokers, period.  If one is OK with that, then get puppies from a pet store.  I'm not OK with that, so I don't get puppies (or any animals) from a pet store.  I don't stick my nose in other people's business.  If someone comes to me and asks for help finding a German Shepherd then I will give them my contacts in GSD rescue and maybe recommend some breeders depending on what they want, but I don't have time to be parading around badmouthing other people.  I think my time is better spent with my own dogs or at the shelter.  There's no use in me targeting individual breeder's unacceptable practices since we live in a free country and unfortunately even crappy breeders have a right to breed dogs.  I have a right to think they are breeding for the wrong reasons and I have the right not to ever give them a cent of my money.

I don't see what knowing ALL breeders has anything to do with anything.  No one knows ALL breeders, no one knows ALL rescues, no one knows ALL anything.  You stated that you think my opinions are based on experience with ONE breeder and I am telling you that your assumption is completely false.  If I only ever knew one breeder I'd be ashamed of myself and ashamed to be here.  I mean, that assertion is laughable to me.

DPU

Liesje

Admit what?  I don't know any breeders that don't use contracts.  "Not open ended" = having a contract.  Even bad ones have contracts and return policies.  Now what pet store would take a dog back after 2 years, 5 years, 10 years....  I don't know why anyone WOULD return their dog, but the fact is that with a good breeder you CAN (and it's required by the contract).  With pet stores and even rescues....tough luck.  When I adopted Coke they said they could take him back within a month or two but after that I would have to re-home him myself or take him to the shelter.

From your statement, it probably would not make a hill of beans difference if a return policy says its lifetime.  If an owner wants to return the dog after such a long period it is probably beyond the circumstances of the owner or it is for the best that the dog get out of that house.  What dog lover would not step up to help the dog and especially for a dog that they know. 

Right, but that's not the point.  I was commenting on earlier statements about breeders taking/not taking back dogs and pet stores taking back dogs.  Both pet stores and breeders have written contracts but the terms of a good breeder's contract would be a lifetime AND include a clause for first right of refusal.  I've never heard of a pet store that includes such things in their return policies.  Whether or not anyone will act on it wasn't the point.

Liesje

I've never heard of a pet store that includes such things in their return policies.

And how does that "heard" get to you since you distance yourself from the petshop and they are not part of your dog social activity world.  There is a presumption in your statement that your ear is on the train track but unless I misread your previous post, that would be a wrong presumption.

Liesje

I don't support reactive approaches like going after breeders I don't like or picketing outside pet stores.  Personally I prefer a more proactive approach.  I have nothing against pet store puppies and as mudpuppy has already pointed out several times they are not harmed.  I don't really care where anyone gets their dogs from as long as they call it like it is. 

You don't seem to mind acclaiming your personal view on a public forum in order to sway others to your thinking.  I think you do support reactive approaches, but maybe the only ones that require little effort to support your advoacy. 

"Call it like it is", you mean Call it like you see it.  You see, you can be doing exactly what you object to because your breeders or the breeders you think you know may be deceiving you about their practice.  You are also assuming all breeders that supply pups to petshop are like the ones that are sensationalized.  Remember, you are not all knowing. 

DPU

Liesje

I don't support reactive approaches like going after breeders I don't like or picketing outside pet stores.  Personally I prefer a more proactive approach.  I have nothing against pet store puppies and as mudpuppy has already pointed out several times they are not harmed.  I don't really care where anyone gets their dogs from as long as they call it like it is. 

You don't seem to mind acclaiming your personal view on a public forum in order to sway others to your thinking.  I think you do support reactive approaches, but maybe the only ones that require little effort to support your advoacy. 

"Call it like it is", you mean Call it like you see it.  You see, you can be doing exactly what you object to because your breeders or the breeders you think you know may be deceiving you about their practice. 

Right, so I should just NEVER own a dog or cat b/c whoever/wherever I get it from MIGHT actually be running a mill and supplying pet stores under the table....whatever.   Nevermind that I see the dogs on a regular basis, I think I would notice if they are constantly pregnant and there's several extra litters on the ground that disappear at 8 weeks.  Nope.  Sorry I'm just not that cynical or into conspiracy theories.  I'm not one to think every person I talk to is secretly trying to deceive me. 

And of course people say their opinions on a message board, that's what it's for!

All this "you don't know all....you think you know but you might not really know...." I don't see the purpose for this thread.  I know who I know, OK?  Just because you don't agree with me or them doesn't mean they are lying to everyone and running puppy mills.

I don't need ANY effort as far as advocacy because this just isn't an area where I concern myself.  I know who the local puppy millers are and I avoid them.  Campaigning against them is never something I claimed to have taken on.  If they are not breaking any laws there's not really a whole lot I can do.  Trying to publicly tarnish them is a waste of time and effort because at the end of the day, there are a good number of people that want a dog purely for looks and papers and they want it yesterday so they don't even care if the dog is from a mill from unhealthy, ill tempered parents who are kept in a small run 24/7 and euthanized when they are no longer suitable "producers".  I may not agree but that is their right.  My choice is to just not make company with those people.

Liesje

Trying to publicly tarnish them is a waste of time and effort because at the end of the day, there are a good number of people that want a dog purely for looks and papers and they want it yesterday so they don't even care if the dog is from a mill from unhealthy, ill tempered parents who are kept in a small run 24/7 and euthanized when they are no longer suitable "producers".  I may not agree but that is their right.  My choice is to just not make company with those people.

There you go again, making assertions and assumptions that are unfounded and unproven.   You make the label of puppymiller and connect that word with "unhealthy, ill tempered parent who are kept in a small run 24/7 and euthanized when they are no longer suitable "producers"".  That is a fine defnition for the word puppymiller.  But then you take the leap and say all petshops are supplied with pups from puppymillers, so petshops are just as evil.  And that is just plain and simple MISINFORMATION.  Members here have told you their positive experience with their dogs that have come from petshops.  I have told you my experience.  I have come to believe that all breeders operate in the mode of independence and there is no one set of rules that every follows.  When I was your age, decades and decades ago, I got my first petshop dog and because it was a specific breed I wanted, I had to wait.  So there goes your assertion of a "impulse purchase" or "want it yesterday'. 

DPU

Liesje

Trying to publicly tarnish them is a waste of time and effort because at the end of the day, there are a good number of people that want a dog purely for looks and papers and they want it yesterday so they don't even care if the dog is from a mill from unhealthy, ill tempered parents who are kept in a small run 24/7 and euthanized when they are no longer suitable "producers".  I may not agree but that is their right.  My choice is to just not make company with those people.

There you go again, making assertions and assumptions that are unfounded and unproven.   You make the label of puppymiller and connect that word with "unhealthy, ill tempered parent who are kept in a small run 24/7 and euthanized when they are no longer suitable "producers"".  That is a fine defnition for the word puppymiller.  But then you take the leap and say all petshops are supplied with pups from puppymillers, so petshops are just as evil.  And that is just plain and simple MISINFORMATION.

I don't see where that quote was referring to pet shop dogs, I was talking about puppy mills (in fact I even had a specific one in mind).

None of the pet shops I use sell animals besides hosting rescue animals so I'm not trying to make a statement about what percentage of pet shop dogs come from where.  Obviously I don't think pet shops are evil, I go to one many times a week.

DPU

I have no interest in having any in-depth type of relationship with a breeder.  What they do as their livelyhood is not something I would do or get heavily involved in. 

I'm almost positive that you've heard this before, but not all breeders breed as a livelihood. Good ones are lucky to break even because they spare no expense with health testing, medical care, food, etc. Not all people who breed dogs are money hungry and want to use them as cash cows.

I'm just curious, do you consider ANYONE to be a good breeder? It seems to me that you're on a vendetta against all breeders.

 Admin note...

Please keep the debate civil and on track, thanks. 

I think it's presumptuous to say that people who advocate not buying from pet shops as a way to protest against or deplete the revenue of puppy millers, which do exist and no amount of existential shell games can refute, are "lazy" in their advocacy. Sometimes, the most powerful thing you can do is spend your money elsewhere.

And, has as been shown, most often, puppies in a pet store come from a puppy mill. And it is not always possible to target each and every puppy mill. The most effective thing is to not buy the product. I noticed that my gas-lighter question went unanswered.

And in the land of free enterprise, people have a want, people have a means of meeting that want, the twain meet and exchange money. BYB in a parking lot, mill broker with a pet store, drug dealers, mercernaries for hire.

For some people, not buying from a pet store and advising others to not buy from a pet store is the most effective advocacy that can do, whether that meets with approval of the rescue elite, or not.

Going after breeders is pointless. Look at the drug problem- you can put supplier after supplier in jail and a new one just pops up. It's a profitable business, and as long as demand exists people are going to get into the business to replace each and every supplier you manage to put out of business. Remove the demand and the suppliers will have to go find some other way to make money.