Pet Store Puppy

Liesje

IMO we ALL have to pick our battles.  

Exactly. In order for something like this to work, it has to be simple and a large percentage of people need to be on board and able to comply. Not buying puppies or even supplies from a store that sells puppies is simple and something that nearly everyone can manage.

It can work if the word is spread far enough and people understand the situation.

samshine

Liesje

IMO we ALL have to pick our battles.  

Exactly. In order for something like this to work, it has to be simple and a large percentage of people need to be on board and able to comply. Not buying puppies or even supplies from a store that sells puppies is simple and something that nearly everyone can manage.

It can work if the word is spread far enough and people understand the situation.

I wonder how the dolphin-free tuna campaign started.  One battle that saved many many dolphins.

Sera_J

I want to say, first, I am against PM's and buying dogs from a pet store, or anywhere else that supports PM activity.

I wanted to say on the front of reputable breeders (RB) breeding to remove some of the demand from PM's is that most of the people who buy dogs from pet stores will not be an acceptable puppy home to a RB.  Most (again NOT ALL!!!!!) people who buy at pet stores are impulse buyers who have thought about getting a dog, sees an easy way to get a dog and doesn't think about training, the amount of commitment it takes and in general sees the dog as most consumers see most property.  Expendable.  Bring the puppy home, it gets too big, doesn't match their decor, eats too much, pees in the house... ate one of their laptop cords... whatever.  And the pup goes to the shelter.

A RB would have screened that buyer, they would not have recieved a dog. (or they would educate themselves and either then decide against it, find a better match as far as dog breeds, or change their lifestyles and expectations.)

I come back to we don't need to meet demands of how many people want dogs.  Just because someone wants a dog doesn't mean they should have one... if they cannot pass a RB's screening protocol they don't need a puppy, they shouldn't have other options.  That's another way (unrealistic I realize) to fix the over population problem.

Ahhhh... wouldn't that be nice! :)

And how exactly would you advocate removing the other options?

 Also, I don't agree that most people that buy from pet stores are impulse buyers.  Pet store pups are often quite expensive and few people are going to just plop down $1000 on impulse.  I think most of them are couples and families who made a collective decision to get a dog and either don't know about where the pet store pups come from, or know and just plain don't care.  And a lot of pet stores in my area are advertising that the puppies come from breeders.  Just because someone wants their dog "now" doesn't mean they haven't put thought into it prior to the purchase, and doesn't mean that dog is destined to be dumped at a shelter.  I know a lot of people who have acquired a dog from a pet store and that dog is still a treasured family pet years later. 

Also, individual rights and freedoms are highly valued in our society and there is no way that any establishment will be supported to decide who does and who doesn't  get to own dogs, or what kind of dogs.  So, like I said, without other options, people WILL go elsewhere.

jenns

Also, I don't agree that most people that buy from pet stores are impulse buyers.  Pet store pups are often quite expensive and few people are going to just plop down $1000 on impulse

Lani said it was unrealistic, lol. They are not without other options....they are without other options that fit their schedule, budget, dreamed up reality, idea of convenience, etc.

I even said that this was not a realistic option... I don't know what else you want from me.  Like you I have an opinion and I stated it.  I said "most" and *I* feel that it is that MOST people see pet stores are impulse purchases. I would say that a much larger percentage of people who go to a pet store are looking on impulse, because they do not have the patience to wait for a RB to have a litter, or a rescue to do a home check, or what have you.  Some people do not see $1000 as a large sum of money and are willing to pay any amount for convenience.  I would like to add that of course pet store dogs come from breeders, what other option is there?  They are not going to advertise "Puppies from horrible Puppy Mill!"  Slightly counter productive, yes?

We are now dealing with the ONLINE "pet stores", you can have your puppy OVERNIGHTED to you.  Type in your favorite breed of dog and "puppy" in your search engine and see what comes up.  If any of the first 3 pages have a reputable breeder on them I would be shocked. 

I'm not saying just because someone bought a dog at the pet store they don't love them, I personally, as a small child got our (my first) dog from a pet store.  He was treasured.  But, people who have not done the research and have reached their wits end in training or dealing with a puppy they were not prepared to deal with, they see them as expendable.  You or I may sacrifice sleep, lifestyle, money or whatever so that our dogs stay with us and lead happy lives BUT there are at least as many who do not.  So, they take that dog to the pound and buy a new one... i've seen it repeatedly with my own eyes.

Gina, yes, thank you!

You will never convince the public to stop buying from pet stores without a viable alternative available.

there is no viable alternative. Breeders who care about their dogs won't sell them to "the public". Breeders who don't care about their dogs shouldn't be breeding. "The public" is wrong in thinking animals are commodities to be bought and sold and killed and discarded on a whim. The only solution is public education about the horrors of puppy mills, about how time-consuming and resource-consuming owning a properly cared for dog actually is. If people have to go on waiting lists and make it through interviews and home visits before getting a dog who fits their lifestyle so much the better.

mudpuppy

there is no viable alternative. Breeders who care about their dogs won't sell them to "the public". Breeders who don't care about their dogs shouldn't be breeding. "The public" is wrong in thinking animals are commodities to be bought and sold and killed and discarded on a whim. The only solution is public education about the horrors of puppy mills, about how time-consuming and resource-consuming owning a properly cared for dog actually is. If people have to go on waiting lists and make it through interviews and home visits before getting a dog who fits their lifestyle so much the better.

Of course there is.  You just won't give up the lazy man's methods of not getting involved to stop the source, the breeder.  I don't see how anyone can correlate the words "care" and "sell" and then that makes them to be a good breeder.  The difference between a good breeder and a bad breeder is who they "sell" the dog to?  Give me a break, everyone is "public".  The "public" is more educated that anyone thinks.  Its all about representation by the breeder and by the adopted, and I suspect the representation is only temporary and for that transaction.  If you read HSUS stats, they say 90% of pet shop puppies are supplied by puppymillers, the negative ones that advocates seem to only focus on.  I come to not trust HSUS stats since they seem to never provide proof.

You just won't give up the lazy man's methods of not getting involved to stop the source, the breeder.  I don't see how anyone can correlate the words "care" and "sell" and then that makes them to be a good breeder. 

if you stop all breeding you get extinction.

one difference between a good and a bad breeder is good breeder products NEVER end up in shelters or foster care. They carefully select owners who aren't going to go discard the dog in six months, and insist if anything happens the dog comes back home to the breeder. Good breeders aren't causing the problems you have to fix, DPU.

DPU

 I don't see how anyone can correlate the words "care" and "sell" and then that makes them to be a good breeder. 

FWIW I've paid for all my rescue/shelter animals and my first dog from a good breeder was free.

I don't care about HSUS stats and where they or you claim pet store dogs come from because if anyone sells or brokers a puppy to a pet store than by my personal definition they cannot be a good/responsible breeder.

At the most basic level I think the best breeders really breed for themselves, weird as it sounds.  They aren't breeding to meet a demand or make any money.  They are breeding because THEY want the product of X-female and Y-male.  It might sound weird but of all the breeders I've talked to and seen their dogs and their programs, the ones that seem to be doing the best jobs (producing dogs with the best temperaments and in good health) are the ones that have a vested interest in improving the breed by producing dogs that they want to love, train, and breed.  There are many reasons I avoid certain breeders but one reason would be a breeder that is never keeping anything back.  To me that's a big red flag.  Why are they breeding if they sell every single one of the dogs?  So at some level I guess we agree.  I don't see a breeder as selling every dog they produce as really being a good breeder and caring for their breed.

I think we need legislation to crack down on breeders who keep dogs in horrible conditions - and to crack down HARD. I don't care how many dogs a person has or is breeding, relative to the treatment of said dogs. Are their living conditions adequate? Are they kept healthy?

 As far as demand, BYBs can step in. Not my personal preference for getting a dog, but when it comes down to conditions most BYBers treat their dogs decently. If they don't - smack them with a fine that hurts.

The fact of the matter is that many people want dogs who can't pass the standards of serious breeders. They are legally entitled to have dogs, and to change their mind and get rid of dogs. Given that basic fact, my goal would be to end inhumane puppy farming, outlaw pet stores, and subsidize (or make free) spay and neuter for anyone who wants their dog fixed. This will mean no more puppy mills and fewer oops litters.

I think it would also be a good idea to have the human equivalent of a CGC - a certification that shows a person has a basic understanding of the care and training of dogs. In my fantasy world, home owners insurance could give people a break on the rate, and apartment renters could be required to have one in order to have a dog. (Or maybe not have to pay the security deposit). This would get more people EDUCATED.
 

mudpuppy

if you stop all breeding you get extinction.

one difference between a good and a bad breeder is good breeder products NEVER end up in shelters or foster care. They carefully select owners who aren't going to go discard the dog in six months, and insist if anything happens the dog comes back home to the breeder. Good breeders aren't causing the problems you have to fix, DPU.

I should have qualified my descriptor of breeder by saying bad breeders within the contents of all breeders.  There are bad breeders within those that supply pups to pet shops just as as there are other bad breeders that supply and sell the pups in different ways.  The problem is all breeders represents their operations as the "right way" and all buyers represents themselves as the perfect family for the dog. 

Do you know for sure that a "good breeder" (one on paper) pups "NEVER" end up in  shelters or foster care or if they were the ones that made the mixes.  Usually no history comes with the dogs in shelters.  If there was, that would help me out a lot in planning for rehabbing and finding the right home.  All breeders say they are good breeders but who knows if the breeder would do as they say if the situation comes up.  At least with petshop pups you are given the lenth of time.  Remember the breeders that you are calling "good" are the ones that rehome their breeding pair once the dogs have used up their usefullness.  And because there is no oversight for all breeders, the breeder can say anything just to get a sale.

DPU

  All breeders say they are good breeders but who knows if the breeder would do as they say if the situation comes up.  At least with petshop pups you are given the lenth of time.  Remember the breeders that you are calling "good" are the ones that rehome their breeding pair once the dogs have used up their usefullness.  And because there is no oversight for all breeders, the breeder can say anything just to get a sale.

Wow, a bit presumptuous and judgmental are we?

The breeders I associate with do not "rehome their breeding pair" b/c for one they don't really HAVE "breeding pairs" and their dogs are their pets just like your dogs are your pets and my dogs are mine.  I'm not sure how it works in other breeds but with west German GSDs it's not really just ONE breeder owning ALL the breeding dogs, it's more like a kennel program, a group of people who have similar goals.  The dogs are pets that belong to various people.  When you go to a show or trial or whatever you will see clumps more like kennel groups.  The breeder might be there with one or two dogs but many of the dogs under that kennel name are owned by other people.  Nikon is still part of his breeder's program even though I own him and have full registration.  That way, the breeder doesn't have to keep a dozen dogs and not be able to make enough time to properly raise and care for each one and end up with a puppy mill type situation.  Yes, dogs have been returned for various reasons.  Actually, one dog in Nikon's litter was returned this week because she was just too much for the new owner and their current dog is being too rough.  The breeder gladly took the dog back, full refund.  Another pup in Nikon's litter was born with a heart defect.  A family I know wanted to adopt her anyway, so she was given to them free of charge.  She died last weekend despite their efforts.  The breeder kept another female from the litter for herself (as well as a male) and now this family is raising that female as their pet.  I don't know any good breeders that would not allow someone to return a dog within a reasonable amount of time if things aren't working out and ALL good breeders ask, if not require, that the new family take the dog to the vet within 48 hours.  I consider Nikon's breeder a friend and we see each other a lot but I still took Nikon to the vet two days after I got him b/c she places the most importance on health and has nothing to hide.  Nikon's breeder typically has way more demand for puppies than supply, so if something doesn't work out with one owner it's not like that dog is dumped in a shelter b/c no one wants it.  For Nikon's litter alone, a dozen GOOD homes were turned away.  Even so the breeder kept at least two of the dogs for herself.  The intent is not to make money.  In fact I'm sure in the end she comes out way behind, even if she had sold every single one of the pups for the current going price (which in fact she does not, her price is more than fair considering what others are asking these days).

Breeders can *say* anything to get a sale but without paperwork to back it up, they'd just be shooting themselves in the foot.  Anyone can browse OFA records, CERF records, AKC points and awards, trial results, etc and see for themselves if the dogs are what the breeder says they are.

Seriously, you should spend more time with good breeders and fanciers before passing such judgments.  I mean, you're preaching to the choir.  Everything you're listing as being bad about breeding most people here agree with, but you're assuming we think those people are good breeders when in fact they are not.  Breeders that lie about their dogs, toss them away when they are done breeding, and breed just to make money are not good breeders.  Anytime the welfare of the dogs and the breed does not come first then it's not a good breeder.

 The breeder I plan to get my next dog from recently took back a spayed, 3 yo bitch who had been through a tragedy in her home. She's *kept* the dog as her personal pet, and has her almost totally rehabbed from the trauma. I always thought that was part of being a "good" breeder.

I'm fairly certain a pet store wouldn't take back a dog in this dog's situation. 

DPU

Do you know for sure that a "good breeder" (one on paper) pups "NEVER" end up in  shelters or foster care

How that works for me, is that would not be a "good breeder".  Part of the qualifying element in my book (to be a good breeder) is that the breeder will take back any unwanted puppy/dog that they have created at anytime for any reason. 

DPU I must ask, for someone who works in rescue how do you justify buying a dog from a pet store?  You are both dealing with the puppymills effects and yet supporting them (by purchasing dogs at petstores).  Quite the paradox.

Liesje

Seriously, you should spend more time with good breeders and fanciers before passing such judgments.  I mean, you're preaching to the choir.  Everything you're listing as being bad about breeding most people here agree with, but you're assuming we think those people are good breeders when in fact they are not.  Breeders that lie about their dogs, toss them away when they are done breeding, and breed just to make money are not good breeders.  Anytime the welfare of the dogs and the breed does not come first then it's not a good breeder.

Now who is being so QUITE judgemental.  I can see that your views are based on one relationship and your surface knowledge of that breeder's practice.  But, you are not there every day, every minute so you can't see what really happens and can only take the word of the breeder.  Of course they are only going tell you positive things and gossip about the people they reject for their pups.

I really don't see that much of a difference between the breeder you describe and the practices of breeders who supply puppies to petshops, provided their housing facilities are good.  As you admit, the return policy is not open ended with your breeder and with the petshop pup breeder the return policy is written in the contract.   

I don't like the "dog swapping" arrangement of your breeder.  It rather disgust me as very unnatural for a dog and can easily springboard to human conflicts and unsavory practices at the dog's expense.  Reminds me of a train hobo, one who wanders from place to place without a permanent home.

I have no interest in having any in-depth type of relationship with a breeder.  What they do as their livelyhood is not something I would do or get heavily involved in.  I never want to be one that puts the need of the human for dog related social activity over the dog as a family member.  For the various dogs that I have adopted from different breeders, my requirement is for them to answer and satisfactory answer any of my questions or concerns.  Whether my dogs came from a byb, a petshop, a puppymiller, or "the right" breeder, all I want is my questions answered and I feel comfortable taking them at face value.  That is all anyone can do.

Sera_J, the pups are here, they are alive and in need of a home.  I can offer them a better situation or get them in a better situation.  Where they came from or who they fraternized with, doesn't matter.  Thats the criteria needed for a dog to enter my home.