Pet Store Puppy

Wow! Great post, Jenns!  

jenns

Chuffy

the sort of people who should be breeding pups should be those who breed rarely and carefully.  How can you do so AND meet demand? 

I do not agree that repsonsible breeders should rarely breed, because that IS a contradiction.  We are demanding the public buy from responsible breeders instead of pet stores but we are asking the resposible breeders not to breed.  Makes no sense to me at all.  Those who breed for sound conformation, temperment and health should by all means be breeding more than a litter per year.  The argument for the breeding for purebred dogs is to improve the breed, but if  the puppy mills are pumping out millions more badly bred dogs than than the good breeders are for good dogs, how does that improve the breed?  People buy from pet stores because the puppies are AVAILABLE.  Adopting from a shelter is a wonderful thing to do but it is not for everyone, and if we want people to buy responsibly then that option needs to be available to them.

 You will never convince the public to stop buying from pet stores without a viable alternative available.

Jenns, AR folks have ensured this is how things stay for the present.

Certainly it wasn't always bad juju to have more than x amount of dogs and breed more than x amount of litters.

I don't see that any sane reputable breeder would risk being raided by the local authorities due to being called "a mill" by finger pointers...these days. Might be one reason...fear of the consequences which are real and potentially very costly.

jenns

Not everyone who acquires a dog from a breeder is some sort of shallow elitist demanding a purebred registred pup.

I never called anyone shallow. And I fully agree with buying a puppy from a breeder for size, temperment, ect.

I also understand that they type of animals avalible depends on your location, I was basing all my opinion on my area. Puppies always get adopted first, due to being cute and small. In my area we basicly have Shepherds, Labs, Pits, and Hounds in our shelters. All large breeds. All of the adult dogs hold a high chance of being put down, the puppies have a high chance of being brought back because they're adoptive owners 'Didn't know he/she was going to get that big...' or 'He/she just won't stop chewing....' when they adopted a 10 week old Shep. Lab. Pit or Hound mix puppy. It's not the dogs fault he was born to be big, it is a persons fault that his mother wasn't spayed to prevent her from having 30 unwanted puppies. I have nothing against resposible, caring breeders. I do have something against people that want a dog, don't care if it's reg. or not, but only buy from BYB's and not help out a animal in real need.

DPU

3girls

Wouldn't that be cutting your nose to spite your face?? Especially seeing as how they carry... Canidae, Solid Gold, Natural Balance, Evo, Innova, Eagle Pack, Nature's Variety (thats the raw prepackaged right?) Merrick, Royal Canin, Wellness, Chicken Soup, California Natural and a few other foods I can't remember. That's just the dog food list...

Wow!  I did not know all those dog food manufacturers support pet shops and puppymillers.  How does one reconcile their purchases with that? 

 

I don't think any manufacturers or suppliers check what ELSE the buyers stocks before releasing produce.  I don't think it's a totally realistic expectation either, given the current financial climate.  Perhaps you have a point - a few letters written to top dog food producers making the suggestion would not go amiss.... now which of us are going to do that, and which of us are going to sit here arguing about it?

jenns

Chuffy

the sort of people who should be breeding pups should be those who breed rarely and carefully.  How can you do so AND meet demand? 

I do not agree that repsonsible breeders should rarely breed, because that IS a contradiction.  We are demanding the public buy from responsible breeders instead of pet stores but we are asking the resposible breeders not to breed.  Makes no sense to me at all.  Those who breed for sound conformation, temperment and health should by all means be breeding more than a litter per year.  The argument for the breeding for purebred dogs is to improve the breed, but if  the puppy mills are pumping out millions more badly bred dogs than than the good breeders are for good dogs, how does that improve the breed?  People buy from pet stores because the puppies are AVAILABLE.  Adopting from a shelter is a wonderful thing to do but it is not for everyone, and if we want people to buy responsibly then that option needs to be available to them.

 You will never convince the public to stop buying from pet stores without a viable alternative available.

 

People need to be educated and it would do no harm if people came to realise that puppies should not necessarily be available on a whim.  It should not be an impulse buy after al, right?

CoBuHe

was ignorant to the practice at the time; didn't even know what a mill was 15 years ago.  Now I know better.

Thanks for posting this. Now, I know what your beef is. No one here is condemning you for that initial purchase, when you didn't know any better. The OP of this thread, I think, knows better. I know your not disputing the horrible conditions in puppy mills and that you wouldn't necessarily buy from a pet store today. But, you don't have to justify the continued practice of buying from a pet store in order to assuage any parasitic guilt you might feel from our modern judgement of pet stores. This isn't about your long ago purchase. This is about someone, today, in spite of knowing better, wanting to go ahead and purchase that pet store puppy. And she or you may do so and be happy with it. And others are going to disagree with that action. C'est la Vie.

 

I think you just like pushing people's buttons. I don't think for a minute that you would buy from a pet store, even if you had the money. You have no shortage of dogs with the added advantage of seeing how they turn out to be.

All the product of these puppy millers are what keeps you busy. Impulse buys from a pet store or a parking lot that people end up not being able to care for. Or do you know how many of the rescues you handle actually came from legitimate breeders and dedicated owners?

As for supply and demand, my mom raised me with this notion. You don't always get something just because you want it. So, if a person wanted a dog and had to wait until they had the money and knowledge and a good breeder, then great, because it will build character.

Granted, I believe in free economy which may allow some of these problems and there may be no final solution short of a change in society and we may just be talking into the wind. And yes, there might be a number of dogs from such conditions that turned out healthy and okay, after all. That doesn't make the practice right. Justifying something just because it fullfills a niche in society could be used to justify drug abuse, contract murder, or any organized or disorganized crime you can think of. Yes, selling meth might make money and answer a demand but that doesn't make it right. Same thing can be said for puppy mills. And, as I said before, the linked article only mentioned reported illnesses so far but answered nothing about the conditions often found at some puppy mills.

I know that a puppy mill that can't sell to a particular store will just sell to another one. But you get enough people not buying puppies from stores and after a while, the industry takes a dive. People used to get paid to light gas-lit street lights. What's the gas-lighter job market like, right now?

DPU

Chuffy

 Here in the UK, there is at least one requirement - that both parents must be registered.

It seem to me a very simple thing to add to the "registered", maybe in small increments and over time.  E.g. Must be registered and parents have to be the same breed, or must be registered and parents have to have a health check.  Don't you agree?

 

Actually, about 8 years ago or so, AKC did try to make one tiny incremental improvement to their registration - they began to require that dogs that were used to sire more than 5 litters, or bitches that whelped more than a couple (I forget exactly how many) litters had to be identified by DNA so parentage could be proven. That's when puppy mills stopped registering their puppies IN DROVES, and began inventing fake registries like the Continental Kennel Club, and a few others. So, all that AKC accomplished by implementing even that very whimpy improvement in registration requirements was to lose a substantial amount of income as commercial puppy factories invented their own registration systems. These registration systems incidentally included registration of various hybrids, and I suspect contributed substantially to the -doodle/-apoo craze. Puppy mills are driven by the laws of supply and demand. If the demand goes away, the supply of commercially mass produced puppies will also go away.

ron2

As for supply and demand, my mom raised me with this notion. You don't always get something just because you want it. So, if a person wanted a dog and had to wait until they had the money and knowledge and a good breeder

This is exactly right!  a good breeder does not push out dogs!  They don't' because...  they don't want any Tom, ***,Harry or Jane owning dogs on a whim.  My breeder and most breeders of my breed, will put you thought the ringer and..  they don't allow you to pick your pup, they pick a pup for you that fits your lifestyle and your family.  Why??  Because they want to make sure that this dog has a forever home, that the new family wants and can care for the dog.  The the new family seems able to handle a massive breed dog.   My breeder puts out one litter every one to two years averaging 8 pups per litter, they have a waiting list over 5 years out.  What happens to most of those people on the waiting list?  They go to other breeders I suppose and some will just give in and buy a different breed from a pet store or a byb.  But at least my breeder didn't contribute a large breed dog to a person that will more than likely dump it if they can't live it.  In fact, my contract state that he must be neutered AND the breeder gets him back if we can't care for want the dog any longer.  This is why breeders of reputable standards don't mass produce their dogs.  If breeders did what you suggest they would be nothing more than a puppy mill, making puppies to sell to anyone who wanted one. 

And..  I am not an AKC expert but I do know that not just any dog can be an AKC registered breed.  For example:  The Greater Swiss Mountain Dog is a relatively new AKC breed, fully recognized in 1995.  Greater Swiss Mountain Dog Club of America formed in 1968 with the express purpose of obtaining AKC recognition.  It took almost 30 years to bring this dog to recognizition with the AKC. The Greater Swiss breed was resuscitated in the early 1900's by famous dog expert, Dr. Albert Heim of Zurich and introduced into the US in 1967.  There was a lot of history behind this breed and it still took club many, many years to bring it in the AKC as the 137th breed.

ron2

CoBuHe

was ignorant to the practice at the time; didn't even know what a mill was 15 years ago.  Now I know better.

Thanks for posting this. Now, I know what your beef is. No one here is condemning you for that initial purchase, when you didn't know any better. The OP of this thread, I think, knows better. I know your not disputing the horrible conditions in puppy mills and that you wouldn't necessarily buy from a pet store today.

Thanks for your post Ron.  I was insulted by the implication that my purchase of the one and only Pet Store puppy was an impulse buy.  I suppose there are people out there that can make an impulse buy of something that costs hundreds of dollars and more.  But, I'm not one of them.  Also, at the time of the discussion of which I was a part, my mind was on my dearly departed dog and it was upsetting to read that particular post.  I took it personally.  My bad.

Wouldn't that be cutting your nose to spite your face?? Especially seeing as how they carry... Canidae, Solid Gold, Natural Balance, Evo, Innova, Eagle Pack, Nature's Variety (thats the raw prepackaged right?) Merrick, Royal Canin, Wellness, Chicken Soup, California Natural and a few other foods I can't remember. That's just the dog food list...

 

 

 

Wow!  I did not know all those dog food manufacturers support pet shops and puppymillers.  How does one reconcile their purchases with that? 

 

 

 

I don't think any manufacturers or suppliers check what ELSE the buyers stocks before releasing produce.  I don't think it's a totally realistic expectation either, given the current financial climate.  Perhaps you have a point - a few letters written to top dog food producers making the suggestion would not go amiss.... now which of us are going to do that, and which of us are going to sit here arguing about it?

I doubt very much whether most pet stores buy direct from the manufacturers. If the manufacturer sells to distributer X, and distributor X sells to stores x, y, and z, how can the manufacturer know/do anything about it?

mudpuppy

I doubt very much whether most pet stores buy direct from the manufacturers. If the manufacturer sells to distributer X, and distributor X sells to stores x, y, and z, how can the manufacturer know/do anything about it?

Wow!  So we not only have food manufacturers supporting pet shops and puppymills but also distributors too.  So many places to send letters voicing your advocacy against the puppymiller, that is if you get involved and are true to your cause.

Would you support an effort to shut down puppy mills that have proven to be abusing dogs?

DPU

mudpuppy

I doubt very much whether most pet stores buy direct from the manufacturers. If the manufacturer sells to distributer X, and distributor X sells to stores x, y, and z, how can the manufacturer know/do anything about it?

Wow!  So we not only have food manufacturers supporting pet shops and puppymills but also distributors too.  So many places to send letters voicing your advocacy against the puppymiller, that is if you get involved and are true to your cause.

 

Too much of a stretch.  DPU that's like me saying you support people who trample on human rights b/c you shop at grocery stores that carry products from countries like China, et al.  Do you really scrutinize EVERY purchase you make, not only for that item but any other item that is sold or associated with that store AND their supply chain? 

IMO we ALL have to pick our battles.  Just because one person is outspoken against puppy mills doesn't mean you should discredit what they are doing because they are not attacking commercial pet food manufacturers like you.  I don't know about you guys but I simply don't have enough hours in the day to be crusading on every front.  I focus my attention on German Shepherd rescue and helping local shelters, I don't think anyone on this board even knows me enough to judge me on that. 

I want to say, first, I am against PM's and buying dogs from a pet store, or anywhere else that supports PM activity.

I wanted to say on the front of reputable breeders (RB) breeding to remove some of the demand from PM's is that most of the people who buy dogs from pet stores will not be an acceptable puppy home to a RB.  Most (again NOT ALL!!!!!) people who buy at pet stores are impulse buyers who have thought about getting a dog, sees an easy way to get a dog and doesn't think about training, the amount of commitment it takes and in general sees the dog as most consumers see most property.  Expendable.  Bring the puppy home, it gets too big, doesn't match their decor, eats too much, pees in the house... ate one of their laptop cords... whatever.  And the pup goes to the shelter.

A RB would have screened that buyer, they would not have recieved a dog. (or they would educate themselves and either then decide against it, find a better match as far as dog breeds, or change their lifestyles and expectations.)

I come back to we don't need to meet demands of how many people want dogs.  Just because someone wants a dog doesn't mean they should have one... if they cannot pass a RB's screening protocol they don't need a puppy, they shouldn't have other options.  That's another way (unrealistic I realize) to fix the over population problem.

Ahhhh... wouldn't that be nice! :)