Pet Store Puppy

buster the show dog

Is it your experience that gosh darn it, if only breeders would be more cavalier in how they place their puppies, and would stop being so darned picky about finding suitable owners, then by golly, the rescues would be empty? Really? Seriously?

Good lord, I think you're the first person in history who may have actually understood the aim of this poster and translated it into a straight-forward sentiment!!  I actually think you've nailed it!  Mighty impressive! 

miranadobe

Good lord, I think you're the first person in history who may have actually understood the aim of this poster and translated it into a straight-forward sentiment!!  I actually think you've nailed it!  Mighty impressive! 

Nope, it is your support for a mystical ideal by pretenders who don't recognize their chosen breeder role as being part of a larger group.  My stance has always been the creation of puppies and the conditions they are brought into this world is a breeder's responsbility and if one breeder operates unethically or has substandard facilities, the other breeders should take care of their own.  Why do the rescues group have to clean up the mess and the public have to the breeder's dirty work?

DPU

Did you get proof for everything you mentioned?  Just because someone says they do such things doesn't mean they actually do it.  The representation of the pup can be the same as of unethical petshop would do.  There is a lot at stake for the breeder who says they don't do what the piece of paper says they should do.  For the petshop dogs I purchased and the byb dog that I think people here have labeled my recent Great Danes, either they had such care or that deprived early care can be easily overcome with subsequent proper handling.  Those that say a dog that has missed out on early socialization and is handicapped for life, just don't have the experience and skill to rehab the dog.  My dogs were perfect and the deaf cross-eye Great Dane that I purchased from the ethical byb was the best and most well behaved dog I ever had.

 

Well, within my smallish city there are three breeders of my favorite breed that I know personally. I've been to their homes and seen how their dogs live. I know who they claim to have had check the eyes on their puppies so it would certainly be easy for me to verify that if I thought they were lying. And I can look up their dogs on the OFA website to verify hip checks. And I can ask them to show me the results of the DNA test on the MDR1 status. So, yes, as a matter of fact, I do have proof for those three breeders. I know several other breeders of my favorite breed throughout the state (and elsewhere) that I trust even though I've never been to their homes. I can verify at least some health screens by asking to see reports from the testing agencies. I see their dogs at shows and see them behaving appropriately. I see the CD's and CDX's and TD's and agililty titles and herding titles and conformation CH's on their dogs so I know that they are doing more with their dog than just hosing out it's kennel and refilling the food bowl and water bottle once a day. So, yeah, I have pretty strong evidence that of everything I mentioned. Thanks for asking. I always welcome the opportunity to tell people what good selective breeders do to prove that they are responsible.

DPU

For the petshop dogs I purchased and the byb dog that I think people here have labeled my recent Great Danes, either they had such care or that deprived early care can be easily overcome with subsequent proper handling. Those that say a dog that has missed out on early socialization and is handicapped for life, just don't have the experience and skill to rehab the dog.

I would like to think that someone who claims to be concerned about the well being of dogs would be concerned about more than whether the dogs one acquires can be "rehabbed" or not. I would like to think that someone who claims to be concerned about the well being of dogs would be concerned about the conditions in which the parents of one's dogs were kept. I would like to think that one would prefer that the puppy never go through the misfortune of being inadequately socialized to begin with. I would like to think that someone who claims to be concerned about the well being of dogs would prefer to minimize the need for rehabbing in the first place. I would like to think that someone who claims to be concerned about the well being of dogs would want people to be able to adopt suitable companion dogs without having to have a specialized set of mad skilz at rehabbing dogs that were previously mistreated.

DPU

My dogs were perfect and the deaf cross-eye Great Dane that I purchased from the ethical byb was the best and most well behaved dog I ever had.

Well, except for the deaf and cross eyed part. I don't for a second doubt that the Danes you've had turned out to be wonderful companions for you. Then again, it is possible for Danes to be wonderful companions AND enjoy normal hearing and vision.

buster the show dog

Well, within my smallish city there are three breeders of my favorite breed that I know personally. I've been to their homes and seen how their dogs live. I know who they claim to have had check the eyes on their puppies so it would certainly be easy for me to verify that if I thought they were lying. And I can look up their dogs on the OFA website to verify hip checks. And I can ask them to show me the results of the DNA test on the MDR1 status. So, yes, as a matter of fact, I do have proof for those three breeders. I know several other breeders of my favorite breed throughout the state (and elsewhere) that I trust even though I've never been to their homes. I can verify at least some health screens by asking to see reports from the testing agencies.

Your post contain a lot of future and past tense verbs, not considered to be actual proof and verfication.  You use the word TRUST and I am sure that comes from your ability to take the individual at face value.  I have also done as you have except I don't go to dog shows.  Seems that in 45 years of owning dogs, I have always been dealing with the breeder you described.

I would like to think that someone who claims to be concerned about the well being of dogs would be concerned about more than whether the dogs one acquires can be "rehabbed" or not. I would like to think that someone who claims to be concerned about the well being of dogs would be concerned about the conditions in which the parents of one's dogs were kept. I would like to think that one would prefer that the puppy never go through the misfortune of being inadequately socialized to begin with. I would like to think that someone who claims to be concerned about the well being of dogs would prefer to minimize the need for rehabbing in the first place. I would like to think that someone who claims to be concerned about the well being of dogs would want people to be able to adopt suitable companion dogs without having to have a specialized set of mad skilz at rehabbing dogs that were previously mistreated.

Like your experience, its how the dog is being represented.  It looks like you don't visit the behavior section much.  There is no correlation between the behavior problem presented and iniital upbringing. 

Well, except for the deaf and cross eyed part. I don't for a second doubt that the Danes you've had turned out to be wonderful companions for you. Then again, it is possible for Danes to be wonderful companions AND enjoy normal hearing and vision.

Not sure what you mean by the above but you should visit Dane's sites and see the problem other owners have.  The people that produced my Great Danes pups did it right and it was my selection skills that found the pups.

DPU

Nope, it is your support for a mystical ideal by pretenders who don't recognize their chosen breeder role as being part of a larger group.  My stance has always been the creation of puppies and the conditions they are brought into this world is a breeder's responsbility and if one breeder operates unethically or has substandard facilities, the other breeders should take care of their own.  Why do the rescues group have to clean up the mess and the public have to the breeder's dirty work?

Usually rescues are ran by the breeds parent club (and/or local clubs) who are these mysterious people in local and parent clubs? A lot of them are breeders.  Taking in puppymill and BYB dogs that others buy and then discard.... most of which are purchased at pet stores and online pet stores.

Yes, there are all breed rescues, and bless them. 

But, there goes the theory that reputable breeders are not involved.  Sadly the PM's (that pet stores support.....) are pumping out puppies faster than they can be placed.

DPU

buster the show dog

Well, within my smallish city there are three breeders of my favorite breed that I know personally. I've been to their homes and seen how their dogs live. I know who they claim to have had check the eyes on their puppies so it would certainly be easy for me to verify that if I thought they were lying. And I can look up their dogs on the OFA website to verify hip checks. And I can ask them to show me the results of the DNA test on the MDR1 status. So, yes, as a matter of fact, I do have proof for those three breeders. I know several other breeders of my favorite breed throughout the state (and elsewhere) that I trust even though I've never been to their homes. I can verify at least some health screens by asking to see reports from the testing agencies.

Your post contain a lot of future and past tense verbs, not considered to be actual proof and verfication.  You use the word TRUST and I am sure that comes from your ability to take the individual at face value.

Who cares what verbs are used?  You can go and check for yourself.  Just the other day someone told me they were looking at a breeder claimed to do hip screening on all their dogs. I checked the OFA records only found three dogs with their kennel name in the registry, and two of them would be 10 and 13 years old right now, not any of the dogs pictured on their fancy web site.  I also checked the CERF registry and found no dogs with their kennel name, not even dogs with expired CERF exams.  Breeding studs and imported breeding dogs must have their DNA on record, there's no "would", "could", "can", "maybe", or "trust" about it.  You don't even need to ASK the breeder because any of these records can be verified oneself.  If I want to title Nikon and do a breed survey later on I have to submit DNA, tattoo, microchip, certified pedigree, and official score book all through the Working Dog Association, not the breeder.

DPU, can you just clearly state what your actual agenda is?  Is there such a thing as a good breeder in your opinion?

DPU

Nope, it is your support for a mystical ideal by pretenders who don't recognize their chosen breeder role as being part of a larger group.  My stance has always been the creation of puppies and the conditions they are brought into this world is a breeder's responsbility and if one breeder operates unethically or has substandard facilities, the other breeders should take care of their own.  Why do the rescues group have to clean up the mess and the public have to the breeder's dirty work?

Gosh. I know "rescuers" who operate unethically, and certainly have substandard facilities. Why don't you in your chosen rescuer role recognize yourself as being part of a larger group, some of whom behave badly. Why does the public have to clean up the mess of collectors and hoarders instead of rescuers like yourself "taking care of your own"?

if one breeder operates unethically or has substandard facilities, the other breeders should take care of their own.  Why do the rescues group have to clean up the mess and the public have to the breeder's dirty work

what on earth do you expect these breeders to do? hire a hit man to take out the unethical breeders? they may be unethical but in most cases they are breaking no laws and no one can stop them except oh yeah by not buying their product.

the problem is the public who thinks dogs are disposable. This line of thinking is fostered by puppy mills and pet stores who suggest dogs are as easy to acquire as shoes, and just as easy to get rid of.

buster the show dog

Gosh. I know "rescuers" who operate unethically, and certainly have substandard facilities.

Then the logic of your ill-conceived advocacy says that you should preach that the public should boycott shelters and only go to one and only one source for their puppies.  Your premise that all suppliers of pups to petshop are evil is wrong.

Liesje

Who cares what verbs are used?  You can go and check for yourself. 

So you are saying for some it is ok to take their puppy supplier at face value and for others it is not and it all depends on the puppy supplier.  Buster the dog doesn't do the check on the selected puppy supplier but is wrong when others do not verfified.

Liesje, from your posting, you say your selected puppy supplier is a subset of other potential ethical suppliers.  Why can't such a recognition be given to the pup suppliers to petshop?

Sera_J

Usually rescues are ran by the breeds parent club (and/or local clubs) who are these mysterious people in local and parent clubs? A lot of them are breeders.  Taking in puppymill and BYB dogs that others buy and then discard.... most of which are purchased at pet stores and online pet stores.

Yes, there are all breed rescues, and bless them. 

But, there goes the theory that reputable breeders are not involved. 

Could be just a front for some breeders and breed club.  For my most recent foster, Bob the Bullmastiff, one breed club did not respond while another would not consider taking in Bob.  This makes one wonder.

DPU

Liesje

Who cares what verbs are used?  You can go and check for yourself. 

So you are saying for some it is ok to take their puppy supplier at face value and for others it is not and it all depends on the puppy supplier.  Buster the dog doesn't do the check on the selected puppy supplier but is wrong when others do not verfified.

Liesje, from your posting, you say your selected puppy supplier is a subset of other potential ethical suppliers.  Why can't such a recognition be given to the pup suppliers to petshop?

Huh?  I'm saying that anyone can check health records.  You seem to insinuate that "good" breeders might be lying to puppy buyers about the conditions of their dogs, so I'm saying that if anyone has any reason not to take the breeder's words at face value, they can spend 10 minutes checking databases or calling the AKC to verify the health records.

I suppose you could do the same for pet shop dogs, get their registration number and run the parents through the various databases, though I'd be surprised if anyone showed up.

It has nothing to do with recognition of puppy suppliers; these are third party organizations like OFFA, PennHIP, CERF, etc that do the exams and give the health ratings. 

Liesje

Huh?  I'm saying that anyone can check health records.  You seem to insinuate that "good" breeders might be lying to puppy buyers about the conditions of their dogs, so I'm saying that if anyone has any reason not to take the breeder's words at face value, they can spend 10 minutes checking databases or calling the AKC to verify the health records.

I suppose you could do the same for pet shop dogs, get their registration number and run the parents through the various databases, though I'd be surprised if anyone showed up.

Sure anyone "can" but I find it disingenuous to waive the verfication for some and not for others when the supplier is taken at face value.  I am not stating that all "good" breeders might be lying, some maybe even the "good" breeders who supply puppies to petshops.  If one establishes a relationship and achieves face value trust, then the rules should be the same

Leisjie, you missed my point.  In your posts and not in this thread, you stated that in your puppy search that you found "ethical" breeder for which you would have nothing to do with for some reason or another.  So you have a created a subset selection within your preferred type of puppy supplier.  The question is why can't you recognize the existance of the same subset with suppliers of pups to petshops.  There are good ones and there are bad ones but they all represent themselves as being good.

Luvntzus

DPU, can you just clearly state what your actual agenda is?  Is there such a thing as a good breeder in your opinion?

Great question, Tamara!  Too bad that it appears to have been ignored......