Pet Store Puppy

luvmyswissy

The anwser is to shut down the puppy mills!! 

 If you really want to do something to stop commercial breeding;

http://www.stoppuppymills.org/

 I think a much more pressing concern is doing something to stop Animal Rights Activists. The link you posted is an HSUS link, I suggest researching the organization before spreading their propaganda for them. If groups such as HSUS and PETA have their way, the only dogs available to us in the future will be high priced commercially bred dogs. Small, hobby breeders will be legislated and fined out of breeding through the laws they are currently pushing and the more restrictive ones which folllow. While would like the public to believe the laws will stop "puppy mills", it is really the small, private breeders who will suffer. Look at the Louisville Pet Law passed a few years ago http://www.louisville-pets.com/.

from your posting, you say your selected puppy supplier is a subset of other potential ethical suppliers.  Why can't such a recognition be given to the pup suppliers to petshop?

cause they aren't ethical?

BEVOLASVEGAS

Luvntzus

DPU, can you just clearly state what your actual agenda is?  Is there such a thing as a good breeder in your opinion?

Great question, Tamara!  Too bad that it appears to have been ignored......

Because it has been stated time and time again.  First and foremost, the advocacy harms the petshop puppy and that is not acceptable to me.  Plain and simple.

mudpuppy

from your posting, you say your selected puppy supplier is a subset of other potential ethical suppliers.  Why can't such a recognition be given to the pup suppliers to petshop?

cause they aren't ethical?

There's that "all" again with no basis or proof.  Despite what you think Mudpuppy, for the pups that I adopted from a petshop, I was satisified that the process of bringing the pup to me was all ethical.  Your definition of ethical maybe similar to mine.

Luvntzus

DPU, can you just clearly state what your actual agenda is?  Is there such a thing as a good breeder in your opinion?

DPU doesn't answer direct questions. 

DPU, this is a little off topic but I noticed in your thread concerning your two fosters that now have a wonderful new home in a huge beautiful house that, oops the new owners fibbed a little about the fence.  Did your rescue group or you not make a home visit before allowing this couple to adopt these dogs?  I guess breeders aren't the only ones who desperately want to place their puppies.

DPU

  In your posts and not in this thread, you stated that in your puppy search that you found "ethical" breeder for which you would have nothing to do with for some reason or another.  So you have a created a subset selection within your preferred type of puppy supplier.  

Can you clarify?  I'm really not sure what you mean or what you are referring to. 

The only subsets within my "ethical breeder" category are people who are breeding dogs I want and people who are breeding dogs I don't want.  I know several ethical breeders whose dogs are not ones I'd ever purchase, just not my type or lines or the drive I want (too much or too little).  I still hang out with them and respect them, I just don't want their dogs.  For example, the sire of Nikon's litter was use by two other kennels that I would consider local to me (both near Chicago).  Both are kennels I enjoy being around and breeders I respect.  So, since I liked all three breeders and they all used the same sire, I looked at the dam and chose based on which combination would most likely result in the best dog for me at this time.  I can't just pick based on a breed I want and a price I like, if the dog is not an appropriate match for my lifestyle I think that's unfair to the dog and to my other dogs.

When I was picking Nikon dog I researched probably 100 different breeders over more than two years.  My initial cut was based on ones that sent immediate red flags (obvious things like dogs that have visible health problems, breeders charging thousands of dollars for dogs they cannot even prove don't have HD, etc).  Then I looked deeper, ruled out ones that may have been good breeders but were too far away (and by that I mean Estonia, not California), too expensive, etc.  Finally I ruled out the ones that don't fit MY strict definition of an ethical breeder and whose goals are not the same as mine (even if their goals are worthy of respect), and then chose based on which breeder I felt most comfortable with and which offered the right dog for my lifestyle.  The final list included seven breeders, and just b/c I only got a dog from one of them doesn't mean I'm out to discredit the other six.  They were very helpful and offered great information, not even about their dogs, but just in general and helped me narrow down what was best for me, even recommended I go to one of the others for a better fit. 

JackieG

DPU, this is a little off topic but I noticed in your thread concerning your two fosters that now have a wonderful new home in a huge beautiful house that, oops the new owners fibbed a little about the fence.  Did your rescue group or you not make a home visit before allowing this couple to adopt these dogs?  I guess breeders aren't the only ones who desperately want to place their puppies.

The descrepency about the fence is between what was put on the application and what was observed during the home inspection.  The home inspection and verification of claims made on the application are done prior to approving an adoption.  While on a home visit we take a walk around the neighborhood and try and connect (in a folksy manner) with the immediate neighbors, especial if one of the neighbors has dogs.  I have never met a neighbor who would not accomodate us and it seems they appreciate it.

A fence requirement was not required for these dog but common sense would dictate you have one.  For Pokey the hound, there is a fence requirement and is so stated in his profile.

FYI, there is no desperation to place foster dogs out of my home.  It is my committment to keep them for as long as it takes to get them in their forever home.  It always just so happens that when they are ready to go, there is a family that wants them.

As a sideline, I think this post qualifies as I do respond to direct questions, I just don't like constantly repeating myself.

DPU

for the pups that I adopted from a petshop, I was satisified that the process of bringing the pup to me was all ethical. 

How did you analyze that it was ethical?  What sort of investigation did you do?  Or is this the "face value" statement you keep bringing up... that you took it at face value whatever the supplier told you...and since you believe that not everyone does all the research that several posters have mentioned in this thread as ways to verify the ethics of their "puppy supplier of choice", that you are holding yourself to the same level.  Therefore, "face value" is what you accept because you presume most others do the same and therefore if they're like you, then they're ok?  Or "John Q Public"?

You can do better than that.  As a rescuer I would expect you to do better than that.  But should I not take your posts at face value?

miranadobe

You can do better than that.  As a rescuer I would expect you to do better than that.  But should I not take your posts at face value?

Yes, you should know by now and as a rescuer of my caliber I know what I am doing, have good judgement, know when to verify, and know when to accept recommendations of others, but above all, I know what is relevant or not for me. 

DPU

but above all, I know what is relevant or not for me.

I interpret that to be that the registries and references for hips, eyes, DNA, etc that others mention as sources to verify their pups health and methods of their puppies' suppliers were not relevant for you.  Have I misunderstood?

Moderator general request...

Many great points to discuss, so let's bear in mind...

Circular patterns where a given thread becomes centered around a single person, rather than the issue at hand, are not always productive.

Let's keep this on the broader topic...and make it about the dogs, and the issues,....okay?

I appreciate everyone's help with this,

Thanks all!

I personally think the only answer is to pass and enforce laws restricting large scale breeding operations.

 Educating the public is of course important but it  will not solve the problem because there will always be a large segment of the population that just doesn't care about where the puppy comes from and therefore the demand will always be there. Most of us support animal suffering in some way by decisions we make and few of us are going to give up our conveniences even knowing what we are supporting (factory farms etc...).  For most people, appeasing their pleading child with their eyes set on that adorable puppy in the window is more important than what they are told is going on somewhere that they can't see or experience for themselves.  Also, gaining access to the information typically involves the individual taking the inititiative to the the research, so it is limited there as well.

 The problem that I have with laws restricting large scale breeders is where do you draw the line? If AR people have it their way, it eventually gets down to me, with my one intact dog.

Say you start out with you can't sell more than 100 dogs a year without special licensing, inspections, and fees. No problem, right? 100 is pretty close to 80. I would never produce 80 dogs in a year, I've got no problem with that. What about 50? 20? 10? When you restrict others' freedoms, you're eventually restricting your own. That's what we have to be careful of, with ANY restrictive law (just like BSL coming down to "my" breed). 

jenns

I personally think the only answer is to pass and enforce laws restricting large scale breeding operations.

 Educating the public is of course important but it  will not solve the problem because there will always be a large segment of the population that just doesn't care about where the puppy comes from and therefore the demand will always be there.

I agree with the second part, but to me that's the crux of the issue.  Many people won't change and don't care about temperament, health history, etc.  BYBs and puppy mills - as long as the dogs are not being abused or neglected - are unfortunately not illegal.  So I guess those people have every right to breed and the public has every right to purchase their dogs.  I have a right to evaluate dogs based on OFA, CERF, etc records and my neighbor has a right not to give diddly squat about those criteria.

Who would make the laws?  What would they be?  Who would enforce them and how?  What criteria would be use?  Different for different breeds?  Registries?

There are already some regulations in place.  Kennels producing over a certain amount per year have to be inspected by the AKC.  In GSD there are breed wardens and breeding is very closely monitored in Germany (limits on how often a stud can be used, how many pups and litters can be registered, dogs MUST have certain titles and health certs to even produce registerable offspring...).  There are zoning laws about kennel fees and licenses, etc. 

I do think that public education is helping and I think at least around here JQP no longer considers it kosher to get a dog from a pet store.  When I was a kid I remember big malls having pet stores full of puppies.  Now, I have to go a ways to go to a pet store that still sells puppies, and most people I talk to tell me they refuse to shop at those stores.  I do know of people who got their dog(s) from a pet store, but right now I don't know of anyone that is a close friend of mine or member at one of the clubs I attend that's gotten a dog from a pet store.  We seem to have all arrived at the same conclusion on our own - we've made a personal choice not to spend money at stores that sell dogs and cats and apparently enough people have done the same and the stores that always stocked puppies are now out of business. 

jenns

Educating the public is of course important but it  will not solve the problem because there will always be a large segment of the population that just doesn't care about where the puppy comes from and therefore the demand will always be there.

I am in the public quite often showcasing my fosters and when a puppy comes by I call them over and always ask where did you get the puppy.  If the puppy came from a petshop, the owner proudly names the shop and the person who was dealt with.  If the pup came from another source, the breeder information is always vague.  Even a Great Dane pup owner that I spent a lot of time with could not remember the breeder's name other than they were in Michigan.  I remember her telling me that this breeder was producing GD with long necks and not quite so tall.  So I think too much is made from where the puppy comes from, regardless of the type of breeder.

I think the public counts on the pet industry to take care of such matters.  Thats the delimma, the public counts on the pet industry and the breeders counts on the public so those few or way too many unsavory pet suppliers to petshop get away with it.  Quite a gap in my opinion.