Pet Store Puppy

jenns

I personally think the only answer is to pass and enforce laws restricting large scale breeding operations.

 There are already laws retsricting large scale breeding operations. What you see on websites like the one put up by HSUS and "puppy mill rescue" organizations does not portray all commercial breeders. Showing the worst of the worst tends to be effective at getting donations and pushing people towards supporting the organization's agenda.

DPU

BEVOLASVEGAS

Luvntzus

DPU, can you just clearly state what your actual agenda is?  Is there such a thing as a good breeder in your opinion?

Great question, Tamara!  Too bad that it appears to have been ignored......

Because it has been stated time and time again.  First and foremost, the advocacy harms the petshop puppy and that is not acceptable to me.  Plain and simple.

That was a great politician response! I'm inferring that by "the advocacy", you mean people advocating responsible breeding? Anyway, this whole discussion has gotten really silly and personally I think people are wasting their time.

 No, by "advocacy" he means "Don't buy pet shop puppies".  He claims that by going round telling people not to buy pet shop puppies, said puppies are harmed.

(Never mind the dogs that are harmed because the ghastly trade continues.)

There are many ways to help the pet shop pup WITHOUT BUYING HIM.  DPU has ignored this little nugget of logic.

There is nothing wrong with asking the staff at the pet shop what HAPPENS to the puppy if he is not bought.  If he is going to end up in a shelter eventually, then why not acquire the pup from there?  This means the pup still gets the home he deserves yet the people behind it all get no money out of it. 

I get the gist of one of your more salient points. That breeders should be ethical, regardless of where or how the pup is sold. Whether at the ranch where the dogs were bred, or in a store, more convenient to people. If all breeders were ethical and didn't overbreed and subject their dogs to horrific conditions, I could almost agree with your point. However, the legit breeders who do care for their dogs do not sell to pet stores. For one thing, they cannot afford to broker a litter at, say, $50 a pup. The health certs and pre-natal and post-natal care alone are more than that for each pup, not including food, time spent being with the pups. No, just about the only way I can imagine that a broker could sell at 50 dollars a pup is if they breed in excessive quantities and don't bother with the healthcare and don't take the time to research the lines, etc. And these constraints lend themselves to the conditions of a puppy mill.

You mentioned that, at fostering events, you've known people who bought a dog at a pet store and remember in exact detail where it was and who helped them and others who bought from a breeder and were vague about it. That doesn't disprove the existence or horror of puppy mills. The way to stop puppy mills is to quit buying from them.

We don't have the manpower to police all the puppy mills. Buy from a breeder, rescue, or shelter. At the very least, the pet store has lost revenue. Granted, the pup may be just fine, after all. I wonder if some people don't readily release the info of their breeder because they don't want a bunch of impulse buyers bothering their breeder. As in, the breeder is only interested in other serious buyers, which is why it behooves the interest buyer to contact a breed club and learn the ropes and build trust that they are committed to owning and cherishing this dog as a serious member of the family and not just because they thought the dogs in "Snowdogs" were so cute.

OTOH, we do have a free economy and they are filling a niche, at the expense of the very dogs they sell. But part of freedom is self-rule. And it is we who must take on the burden of proper stewardship. From consumer to breeder.

DPU

spiritdogs

...because they believe that no one should ever buy from a reputable breeder either.  However, if you want a dog with certain predictable traits, you cannot always find them in an available rescue dog or shelter dog.

For me, both statements, not true...which means I am not an elite rescuer.

I have rescued dogs all my life, and bought exactly ONE dog.  To some of the ***, I committed a sin.  But, I did not perpetuate a puppy mill, nor did I buy from a breeder who would not accept the dog back if I die (not everyone returns a dog because it's a nuisance that they don't want it any more).  Nor did I get it from a byb who only wanted my Visa card, and didn't care if the dog had hip dysplasia or eye problems.

I guess the operating word is "perpetuate" because only one dog was purchased which is probably similar to what the average JQP does.  So since this is being claimed as legitamate excuse why can't it be applied to others?

I guess Blizzard and Drizzle's breeder would be labeled byb because the breeder sold me littermates and one was deaf and crossed-eyed.  I paid with cash, same price for both and not with a VISA card. 

I wonder if the poster would have been so quick to recommend the rescue of Sheba if a little research (a phone call) would have discovered the dog has hip dysplasia and UI, very obvious conditions to see.  See this is what happens when you act on the recommendations of others and you think they did some research.  The dog's condition did not matter to my rescue group since they are not life threatening.

And, some of the "rescue elite" should look to themselves when the dogs they place in homes are unsuitable for those homes.  Many times, I have had to deal with people who only wanted a nice pet.  Instead, they ended up with a "save them all" dog that chews up their window and door frames from separation anxiety, or bites someone because they are food aggressive, or is so undersocialized that they won't come out from under the kitchen table for six months. 

Further proof that I am not a elite rescuer because the above has not happened.  All knowledge and experience is passed on to the new ower.

Why I choose to respond to this whack job reasoning, I'll never know...but, here goes.  No one ever accused you of being elite anything (but the phrase "methinks thou doth protest too much" comes to mind. 

I don't know Drizzle and Blizzard's breeder, but most reputable breeders don't sell littermates to the same person without some sort of scrutiny of the home as one that might be actually able to train the dogs and not have the problems usually associated with that scenario.  The fact that a deaf dog turns up now and then is not necessarily the breeder's fault, although if the breeder doesn't test for genetic abnormalities that are preventable, that's not very responsible.  And, once a dog is in a high kill shelter and needs help, then I don't worry about HD or other problems, because when people rescue a dog there is an inherent risk that the dog might have some physical or behavioral issue.  It is the job of the rescue to evaluate the dog, be honest about anything that it finds wrong, and attempt to ameliorate the situation.  If the dog poses a risk, either financial or in terms of liability, as with aggressive dogs, then the rescue should suck it up and be honest with prospective adopters, use its resources to treat the dog (medically or behaviorally), and not perpetrate any dangerous dogs on the public.  I certainly expected Sequoyah's ancestors to have been tested, because I dealt with a responsible breeder.  But, I didn't ask if my hound had hip dysplasia when I adopted him at age 2 1/2 from a shelter.  Once I decided to take him, I felt it my responsibility to provide his veterinary care, and would not have expected a shelter to use its limited resources to PennHip my mutt.  The object was just to get him out of the pound before the ACO had to send him to the kill shelter.  Behavior issues that should become obvious during fostering were the subject of my comment, not physical ailments that might not be immediately apparent to a rescuer or shelter operator.  You can rant all you want, and sling the arrows you always sling, but nothing changes the fact that anyone who buys a dog at a pet store adds to their profit, which perpetuates the system.  Pet stores sell dogs - if you buy dogs at pet stores, you will always have pet stores, and, by definition, you will always have puppy mills.  Remove the profit motive from the millers, and they would have to find another way to pad their disgusting pockets.

It’s sad, it’s really sad that the one and only solution put forth is to encourage the general public not to buy a puppy from a pet shop and worst yet it is done only by word of mouth.  The argument is “the fact that anyone who buys a dog at a pet store adds to their profit, which perpetuates the system.”  Well everyone, the system does not stop at the sale of the pup.  It continues with the vet care, products, and services provided throughout the life of the pet shop puppy.  Every one of them accepting their take of the aggregate profit.  Sure it would be unethical not to support the pup after leaving the pet shop but you would think that this would be recognized and some reciprocal action would take place in order to bring balance to the unethical way the pup was brought in this world.

Tell me, I am not at all involved in purebred social activity, just a JQP rescuer, a good one, but I have never seen any segment of the Pet Industry denounce the unethical supplier of pet shop puppies.  Maybe the denunciation doesn’t get to me or I don’t notice it but I don’t see any messages in commercials, dog food bags, toys, groomers, my vets have never said anything to me, at the major televised dog shows, any medium where the Pet Industry just simply states they are against the unethical suppliers of pet shop puppies.

What is also sad is that those who use the “spread the word” approach don’t realize that the majority of people who purchase puppies, no matter where the purchase is made, are not their crowd and have no influence to sway.  The trainer who preaches to the class about not buying pet shop pups goes in one ear and out the other because the students already have their dogs.  The teacher is looked at as an authority so the average dog owner rightfully thinks the authorities should take care of blights within the Pet Industry.  So the teacher’s crowd is not the students.  The trainer’s crowd is other trainers and professional organizations that can reach other professional organizations and other Pet Industry Segments.  Again, has any denunciation come out?  The vet medicine, pet pharmacies, and boarding facilities….have they sent the message to the unethical puppy supplier to pet shops.  AKC registries, the breeding pair of an unethical breeders are there next to the rest.  Just how hard is it to create a registry?  I don't know this but can pet shop pup enter and win the Westminster or other televised dog shows?  Have these organization denounced puppymillers?  Have pet shops themselves sent a message?  My message is the Pet Industry can stop and maybe overnight stop the unethical breeder from supplying puppies to pet shops if the Pet Industry acts responsibly. 

Well everyone, the system does not stop at the sale of the pup.  It continues with the vet care, products, and services provided throughout the life of the pet shop puppy.

this is just stupid. None of this money goes back to the puppy mill/pet store. The dog owner distributes this money to these people even if they were to oh the horror of it adopt one of your fosters.

DPU

The argument is “the fact that anyone who buys a dog at a pet store adds to their profit, which perpetuates the system.”  Well everyone, the system does not stop at the sale of the pup. 

Are you trying to say that a company such as Iams is contributing to puppy mills because they haven't sponsored or underwritten an ad to stop poppymills, or words to that effect? That's quite a stretch. I'm going to pretend for a moment that such a notion could hold water. It can't and is a straw boss to defending a debating point but let's pretend. Who cares? It is still upon us who wish to end puppy mills to not support them. But back to the supposition you made. I buy Shadow's food at a health food store. Does the mean the Green Market in Sherman, Texas is responsible for Michael Yaeger breeding a Husky and a Lab? Did they have anything to do with the puppy mills closed down by the Houston SPCA in Harris County? Shall we now diminish Sarah McLaughlin because her commercial for ASPCA doesn't include a barb against byb's and puppy mills? And the donated use of her song means nothing because she didn't include the phrase "only buy from legitimate breeders"?

Yes, it's possible that different corporate entities could help and some of the food companies have sponsored and filmed commercials for adopting pets. Since a lot of people don't spend time on a dog forum and the only contact they have with the dog world is where they buy food, just where on the packaging should there be a notice that buying from a pet store is bad? I don't think food companies make too much more money by not condemning puppy mills because of the number of dogs that end up in a shelter by 1 year of age means that owners weren't buying food for too long and many of them were buying the absolute cheapest thing they could find. And it's a mark of distinction if the dog saw a vet once in that time.

Well DPU if it makes you feel any better I've never been able to find the foods I feed at big chain stores and/or the stores that sell dogs and cats.  Around here those stores only sell the big commercial, grain-heavy brands.  Just another reason it makes my decision to not shop at those stores easier. 

Currently I buy dog food from a reputable breeder, who sells it at cost (sells it for what she pays for it, doesn't make money off of it).  I buy most of my dog supplies from them as well.  The rest of my supplies I get from online companies that custom make their supplies and have no affiliation with pet stores OR breeders, or from individuals like collarmania and fidosfashioncollars.

The only commercial stores I use are Chow Hound, which is a local store, and Pet Supplies Plus, which has a local franchise I use and they do not sell dogs and cats besides hosting them in the store for area rescues.
 

Liesje

The only commercial stores I use are Chow Hound, which is a local store, and Pet Supplies Plus, which has a local franchise I use and they do not sell dogs and cats besides hosting them in the store for area rescues.
 

 I have noticed over the years that people who are strongly opposed at shopping at puppy selling stores will shop at stores which sell other pets. I myself shop at Pet Supplies Plus and Petsmart, both of which sell pets and one which sells ferrets. Small pets in pet stores come from the same sort of commercial breeding practices that petstore puppies do.

 The biggest commercial ferret breeder is Marshall Farms who also breeds rabbits (under the name Peter's Rabbits) for petstores, Beagles for research use and a separate ferret breeding operation for research. There are two other big name commercial ferret breeders in the country - Path Valley and Triple F, Triple F also breeds for research use. Ferrets are highly intelligent, fairly long lived creatures who require early training and daily interaction, not unlike dogs or cats. Ferrets at petstores are generally housed in cramped conditions, never out of their cage and often not handled or not properly handled. They, like petstore puppies are sold to owners who may or may not be prepared for them. The commercial breeder literally produce thousands of ferret kits a year for resale and if it were not for the sale of ferrets in petstores, ferret shelters/rescues would not be needed. Petstore ferrets are much more likely to develop adernal disease, an expense but life threatening problem siminlar to Cushings Disease. This is due to the commercial breeders altering them at extremely young ages, often prior to their eyes being open combined with the stress of the housing situation at the petstore (cage stress combined with the stress of the artifical lighting which ferrets are very sensitive to). On top of that, feeding ferrets kibble which contains grain sets them up to develop another terminal illness called insulinoma which will kill them. Obviously, petstores are bad for ferrets maybe even more so than they are for puppies.

 The rodents which are sold in petstores also come from commercial breeders and are delievered to the store in long trays full of creatures. And I don't think that many people could argue that in most cases petstores are bad for reptiles.

  I am not trying to tell people that they shouldn't shop at stores that sell pets, as I said I shop at them myself. I'm just offering it as food for thought because I think many people are unaware of the situation with small animals.

AgileGSD

Liesje

The only commercial stores I use are Chow Hound, which is a local store, and Pet Supplies Plus, which has a local franchise I use and they do not sell dogs and cats besides hosting them in the store for area rescues.
 

 

 I have noticed over the years that people who are strongly opposed at shopping at puppy selling stores will shop at stores which sell other pets. I myself shop at Pet Supplies Plus and Petsmart, both of which sell pets and one which sells ferrets. Small pets in pet stores come from the same sort of commercial breeding practices that petstore puppies do.

The Chow Hound by my house and the next closest one about 7 miles away sells no animals at all.  They each have about 6 cages for rescue cats from Vicky's Pet Connection or Safe Haven, and one resident cat and that's it.  Our Pet Supplies Plus just sells fish, but they also have about six cats at a time from Reuben's Room Cat Rescue and dogs that come in on the weekends from McKenzie's rescue.

Our Petsmart sells all sorts of little animals but I don't shop there anymore, not so much b/c of the animals but they have nothing I want.  I did get a cat from their store through Vicky's Pet Connection (same rescue where we got Coke). 

DPU

but I have never seen any segment of the Pet Industry denounce the unethical supplier of pet shop puppies.

I have.  I'm surprised that none of the organizations you're involved with don't denounce puppy mills.  Ours did - their website even explains why you need to investigate a breeder before choosing a puppy, with links to further organizations like breed clubs who have more information about avoiding puppy mill suppliers.  Any dog event open to the public is usually aimed at education and exposure - and every one I've ever been to has at least one group explaining the horrors of puppy mills and why you should investigate your breeder.  I am somewhat astonished that your rescue group does not.

My trainer also makes her opinion known about puppy mills and unethical breeders with very few reservations.  There are facts and opinions about breeders, but the bottom line is potential pet owners are responsible for educating themselves.  There's PLENTY of information out there, hundreds and thousands of resources available to ANYONE.  Your free public library has plenty of dog books, etc.  Saying it wasn't spoonfed to them is like saying you didn't realize it was against the law to park next to a fire hydrant.  If you take on the responsibility of driving, you take on the responsibility of knowing all the laws.  Ignorance is not an excuse... it may be a reason, but you still have to pay the consequences.

Again, for alternatives to "just don't buy from pet stores" people here have suggested more investigators to enforce the laws already on the books.  Others have suggested more oversight of existing commercial breeders.  There have been plenty of other suggestions other than "don't buy from pet stores."  That just happens to be the easiest, most immediate way for people to avoid puppy mill puppies.

Liesje

It is food for thought, like you say.  Again I think we all have to pick our battles.  If I draw the line at ALL animals, I can't grocery shop either b/c our grocery stores have pet sections and of course sell lobsters. 

  I'm surprised that grovery stores in your area sell pets - very weird! I don't think lobsters can really be compared to selling companion animals. My food for thought is that the battle is the same with other petstore animals but people seem to take greater offense if it is puppies being sold vs. ferret kits, birds or other small pets being sold.

I think for some people its a case of, small steps... if we can get people to see the plight of dogs and cats then it will be easier to move on to the other pets.  Going the whole mile as DPU seems to be advocating is just too hard for most people to do and it alieantes people.  Boycotting only shops that sell cats and dogs is much easier.  Boycotting shops that sell any pets could be tricky depending on what shops are like in your area, and (this sounds horrible but I think its true) a lot of people have an affinity with dogs and cats that tey don't have with other animals.  They don't care as much.  Lump cats and dogs in with them and it dulls the horror, almost,in their eyes.

In addition, many hamsters, mice, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits etc. tend to live in cages anyway and I would not describe this as horrific, provided there is enouch space and they are kept clean and fed well. But a cage is not a life for a cat or a dog. 

Chuffy

 

In addition, many hamsters, mice, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits etc. tend to live in cages anyway and I would not describe this as horrific, provided there is enouch space and they are kept clean and fed well. But a cage is not a life for a cat or a dog. 

Not to get into any kind of argument but.......none of the above mentioned animals live in cages in their natural environment.  I do agree that because of humans long association with dogs as pets it is seen as much more inhumane to cage them than the smaller mammals and birds for that matter.  I personally can't stand the idea of caging a bird but I know that many people own them and treat them like members of the family.  Just a personal thing for me.