Pet Store Puppy

spiritdogs

The problem is that if only responsible breeders were selling pups, people who are used to instant gratification would have to wait too long for a pup with health-tested parents, and the best chance the breeder could give it for good structure, stable temperament, and a place to go back to if the owner dies

Yeah, too bad, huh?  Wanting all that means I've been waiting months for a Maremma, and will likely have to wait several more.  Some instant gratification might feel pretty good about now, but although I had the chance (an accidental mating between 2 pet quality dogs, puppies were ready at the point I heard about it) I turned it down.  I get overwhelmed with heartache and disappointment sometimes about not having my "heart breed" in the house right now, where I can be with it and teach it and learn from it all the time, instead of the rare occasions I get spending time with ones owned by other people.  But compared to the disappointment and heartache of buying a dog that isn't the product of the qualities you listed, and dealing with what could be severe problems in the future as a result....I'll take it.  At least the heartache I chose lets me sleep at night.  

 I know what you mean.  The other thing that bothered me in this discussion was the inference that I should somehow have chosen to try to bail a "perfect" dog out of a high kill shelter.  As if, all of a sudden, trying to rescue Shelby was a bad idea...  The fact is that Shelby was the product of an unintentional mating, and the pet store puppies are the result of indiscriminate breeding as well, though certainly from one purebred dog to another (in most cases, but the intentional breeding of untested designer dogs is another issue).  Many dogs are out on the streets through no fault of their own, and many get euthanized each year.  Somehow, people have allowed themselves to think that it's the same thing, when it isn't.  The Shelby's of the world are at the bottom of the list, and on death row, because people think that shelter dogs are inferior.  But, just as some people are lucky with pet store dogs (and when you aren't lucky, you will come to know why we say that they can be the most expensive dogs on earth), they are lucky with shelter dogs.  The difference is that when you adopt from a shelter, you are not supporting puppy mills by insuring that they are profitable, you really are supporting rescue. Big difference.

buster the show dog

I don't doubt that the dogs you have that originated from puppy factories are wonderful. Some puppies produced in puppy factories turn out just fine. But, if you purchased your dogs through a second hand broker, then you would have had no way to inform the breeder if a genetic or potentially genetic problem like bloat or deafness, or early onset cancer or orthopedic problems or PRA or seizures afflicted your dogs. The breeder of your dogs would have no way of knowing whether your dogs lived long happy lives, or lived lives of misery chained in a back yard, or died prematurely due to an inherited condition, and hence would have had no information upon which to base further breeding decisions. No one is denying that it's possible to get a nice puppy from a puppy factory. But whether you were satisfied or not with the individual dogs you bought isn't the issue. The issue is were these dogs brought into the world and placed in homes in a responsible manner. The answer is no. The producer of your dogs had no concern about what kind of home they ended up in because the producer of your puppies handed them over to a third party, no strings attached regarding placement. The producer of your dogs had no concern about their future health because s/he had no intention of basing any future breeding decisions on the well being of the dogs that you acquired. That is irresponsible breeding and that is what happens when dogs are mass produced and then disposed of through brokers.

One of the most excellent threads in this post.

Legit breeders want contact with the owners for both quality of life and feedback on the breeding program. If a litter of pups turned out to later have problems, they could then know to change or discontinue breeding of that particular line, which would improve the breed.

Also, the majority here have no problem with boycotting stores that sell puppies as a way of protesting and hopefully eradicating puppy mill operations. Let me offer an example of consumer demand. It's nice that gas prices have dropped drastically. But the remained high for so long that it had an effect on local car dealerships. The lots are full of trucks that they can't sell. But all the small cars are disappearing off the lot. When the big vehicles don't sell as well, the makers and retailers have to back up and regroup toward what the cosumer will buy, or go out of business. Name of the game, sell what the consumer wants, don't sell what the consumer doesn't want. If enough consumers quit buying from pet stores, they will quit selling pups. The store has to make money and cannot afford endless overhead that doesn't produce sales. Short of new laws outlawing the sale of pets in stores, the only way to do that is education of the consumer. When I talk with co-workers about getting a pet, I offer them what I know of pet store puppies and how better off they will be buying from a legit breeder. Or, at the least, from the shelter where you can find purebreeds and have at least some idea of how the dog is turning out. Do they take my advice? I won't always know but at least I got my two cents in where it might make a difference.

The co-worker of mine with the Italian Greyhound had thought about breeding. So, I gave him what I know about it. How arduous it is, the requirements. And not in a way that would suggest that I think he's wrong for such an aspiration. But with the assumption that he truly cares about his pet and the breed. And I could see the gears turning in his head. He was actually thinking about what I said. He wants to do the right thing, he just had not thought that far in advance and I merely showed him all the things that must be considered for a truly fine Italian Greyhound. I'm not stopping him from breeding if he decides to do so, just pointing out what it's going to cost and require and that he will probably never make a dime off of it and so his motivation will have to be for the sanctity of the breed, not commerce. You don't make a profit off of one litter, or even three. You have to crank out litter after litter of different breeds in hopes the "marketplace" is seeking what you are breeding. And, in mass production, there is a loss leader. Some product is never going to sell and has to be disposed of, somehow. So, don't view dogs as mass production items.

For all I know, he may take all of my words to heart and not breed at all or hold off for a year or two until he knows more fully what he is doing. Education may have stopped an unwanted litter of IG's. I won't accomplish it by browbeating him. And, at the same time, show him how buying from a pet store is wrong because of the conditions endemic to suppliers of pet store product.

ron2

Let me offer an example of consumer demand. It's nice that gas prices have dropped drastically. But the remained high for so long that it had an effect on local car dealerships. The lots are full of trucks that they can't sell. But all the small cars are disappearing off the lot. When the big vehicles don't sell as well, the makers and retailers have to back up and regroup toward what the cosumer will buy, or go out of business. Name of the game, sell what the consumer wants, don't sell what the consumer doesn't want.

The motivation in your analogy for not buying gas gusslers is a financial decision. With pet store puppies it is a moral decision. Now if gas and trucks were cheap how many Americans do you think would opt for small environmentally friendly cars? Changing human behavior for moral reasons is not as easy as changing them for financial reasons. It's been done but it takes a very long time. Maybe a 25% tax on pet store puppies would be an effective motivation to buy else where and the tax could go to support rescue orgs.

denise m

Changing human behavior for moral reasons is not as easy as changing them for financial reasons.

Agreed, although I think with puppies it is more of a matter of convenience that dicates where they acquire their puppy.  Especially given the fact that pet store puppies tend to be even more expensive than a pet quality puppy from a good breeder.   Even with all the education in the world, you'll be hard pressed to find people willing to be on a 6  month waiting list (and it probably would be years long if everyone went the route of the ethical breeder - there are only so many of them and they by definition do not breed often) when they have the option of getting their puppy today.  It's just completely unrealistic to think otherwise.

 I really don't know what makes it different here.  As I've said, I just don't know of any pet shops that sell puppies here, and yet there is an abundance of dogs.  Of all the people I know with dogs, exactly one bought their dog from a puppy farm, years ago, before she knew any better.  The rest have rescued or bought from responsible breeders.  I agree with everyone who has said that if there were no pet shops or puppy mills, there would be far fewer puppies around....what I have yet to see is a reason why that is a bad thing.  Preventing pet stores and puppy mills from commercial scale breeding will stop the kind of people who think a dog is an impulse purchase from buying one.  No one has yet convinced me why that is wrong...unfair, maybe...but this forum is riddled with posts from people complaining about their friend/neighbour/cousin being a horrible dog owner.  If those people had been properly screened by breeders or shelters for weeks or months before bringing a dog home, maybe there would be less for those of us who are "good" dog owners to complain about.  Since we're talking moral arguments here, owning a dog isn't a right, morally.  It may be one legally, but lots of things which are legally permissible are roundly abused on a daily basis. 

 Sad thought but... what happens to the pet store puppies that don't sell?

At least BYBers seem to keep some of their puppies usually... that in and of itself, to me, seems a good reason for eliminating the sale of puppies in pet stores, even if that wouldn't necessarily end the practice of "backyard breeding." I do believe that many of the small-scale commercial breeders are well intentioned, if misinformed. Large-scale industrial puppy production? Not so much.

Benedict

what I have yet to see is a reason why that is a bad thing.  Preventing pet stores and puppy mills from commercial scale breeding will stop the kind of people who think a dog is an impulse purchase from buying one.  No one has yet convinced me why that is wrong...

I think I understand what you are asking...  My own experience from a time when I was not very bright and married to hubby #1... we wandered into a Large Chain Petstore in a California Mall. That hubby and I were classic examples of who should NOT buy a dog . We were young, broke and expecting a child.  Yet there was this store Doktor Pet Shop or something like that, the puppies . OMG were they ever cute!! and for some moronic reason it struck us as a great idea to buy my mom a yorkie... after all I had taken my toy poodle with me when we married. We did not ask her, just looked at this adorble pup and then the sales clerk. They wanted an arm and a leg for it but heyyyyy they had credit available ....( like I said really stupid stage of life!)... While sitting there running out paperwork one of the few questions I had asked was if they were AKC reg?? That seemed like a smart question at the time. Yes they responded , absolutely !  Then the Now X Hubby decided shoot if we could but My mom a pup , heck he had Always wanted a Cocker Spaniel and they had the cutest little buff colored cocker boy....so a bit more paperwork and we were buying two!  We were struggling to make rent, the baby was on the way and I was out of work since we both worked for the same company and it was against policy. My husband prefered I be an at home mom like his mother had been so getting a new job was not even considered !!  ( Arrrrgh I can not believe I was ever that ignorant!!)  Two weeks later the cocker spaniel was stolen from our front yard while out for a potty break) The Yorkie lived to be 16 + but was 18 pounds!!! not an ounce of fat just a HUGE yorkie.  And we had close to 800.00 in bills for dogs we did not need and should never have bought !  The pet store made it so very easy that common sense was never brought into it. Being Stupid and yes I own up to that money that should have been put into baby needs was diverted, I guess we expected the families to buy everything since it was the first Grandchild for his family and the first in 11 years for mine.

An ethical breeder would never have sold us a pup let alone two.  But a weekend bored wandering and we were deeply in debt for something that was a total Spur of the moment purchase. My mom was stuck with a pedigreed dog who did not really resemble the breed in size or attitude. And the promises of companionship for the baby, what a wonderful example of the breed we were investing in etc etc etc were a sorry crock of well you know..... Someone made a chunk of money off of us, this encouraged them to breed again without a doubt.  The puppy that was stolen ?? Who knows, I prayed it was loved deeply and treasured but it could just as easily become part of more and more puppies being churned out without testing, oncern or regard for the offspring. MY casual purchase could have fathered hundreds of pups, and on and on....

 unexcusable really and one of my biggest regrets in life !! 

Benedict

Since we're talking moral arguments here, owning a dog isn't a right, morally.  It may be one legally, but lots of things which are legally permissible are roundly abused on a daily basis. 

Just because something is legal  as you so very correctly point out does NOT mean it is moral. We,, I should have saved that money and been a responsible young adult but for me, animals were like a drug.  Never had enough, and never saw the reason to plan ahead in a responsible manner. I was a really stupid newlywed and I was the smart one in the marriage !!  The family even remarked , "well at least it wasn't pot !" It could have been just as easily I think, but pets are legal, adorable and in the mall, try getting your local pot dealer to finance your habit!  I have very dear friends with a pet store, they only sell rescues or dogs that are in serious need of a home, they include the cost of the alteration certificate in the sale and puppies and kittens who were dumped at their back door have a shot at a home. The Rhodesians they breed are placed with even higher levels of care and contracts. They can and will go after a negligent owner of a puppy they bred, a puppy sold in the store does not have that  protection. Somehow people buying in a pet store will not sign the same type of contracts as thoes buying from a private breeder!! IT is really sad.

Bonita of Bwana

 Your story is precisely what I'm talking about, Bonita....and I feel comfortable saying that because I KNOW you have learned from those mistakes and know that you are a very responsible breeder of a challenging breed to which you have dedicated yourself.  Knowing what you know now, don't you wish you could go back and tell your younger self not to buy from that pet shop?  I know at the time it seemed like a great idea, but with the wisdom of years I can tell that you know your life would not have been over if you hadn't been able to buy that puppy then.  Sure it would have been disappointing if common sense (by your own description LOL) had prevailed, but in the long run it would not have been the end of the world.

NO ONE needs a puppy "right now" to the extent that they should just be able to go and buy one because they happen to be at the mall.  This is consumerism at its very worst.  No one needs a 48" plasma screen TV they can't afford, no one needs a shiny new Land Rover if the car they have runs well, and no one needs a puppy just because one is available.  Everyone has things they WANT....and you know what?  Getting the thing you desire so greatly is that much sweeter if you have to wait for it or work for it, or both.  

jenns

Agreed, although I think with puppies it is more of a matter of convenience that dicates where they acquire their puppy.  Especially given the fact that pet store puppies tend to be even more expensive than a pet quality puppy from a good breeder.  

That, and I think people are sold based on "registries" and "health certificates". There's a pet store in a town south of here where I go to the beach so I've stopped there before.  They sell puppies and often I over hear things like "Oh look! ("but they're $800!";)...yeah but they are APRI registered and have papers!"  In my experience it's not just that people are banking on the dog being "purebred" but also assume that any form of registry is supposedly indicative of a quality, healthy dog, and that a health certificate (often required to sell a dog in a pet store) means the dog is free of genetic defect.  We all know that is not true, even the most "reputable" registries like the AKC and Kennel Club have plenty of issues, and a puppy wellness exam is not the same as the parents and/or the dog being OFAed, CERFed, cardiac OFA, and other genetic tests.

One thing I don't think I've said yet in this thread is that my experience has been that the majority of people are very open to being educated about these things.  The training club where I am most frequently is in a rural area where German Shepherds are pretty popular.  My friend who owns the club is not particularly fond of them and doesn't know much about them, but she gets lots of cold calls from non club members who just want info on where to get a GSD so she passes these inquiries to me.  Once these people have information about various health problems, different types of GSDs, what the titles mean (NOT information like "Oh I would use this breeder, NEVER go to a pet store!";)  they come to the conclusion on their own that purchasing a GSD from a petstore is not a good choice.  So based on my experience, education - rather than asking breeders to picket against pet stores while ignoring the public's role - really DOES help.

Bonita of Bwana

An ethical breeder would never have sold us a pup let alone two.  But a weekend bored wandering and we were deeply in debt for something that was a total Spur of the moment purchase.

Nothing in your story give the pet shop or any other puppy supplier any indication of whether you would be a fit adopter.  Young, starting out, having or wanting a family is not a disqualification for adopting one of my fosters so from my point of view not a disqualification for any breeder.  I can't see your medical records and I can't do a credit check.  What I can do is ask questions and answer questions.  For that to be successful there has to be truth and we know how anyone from either side can stretch the truth or be downright deceitful.  I can also do a home visit.  And it really should not be represented as an inspection but a convenience to both side, free delivery of the dog, a show of responsible placement on the part of the rescue group, and show of good faith on the buyers side.  For every foster I place, I do 100% home vist.  99% of those home visits were not necessary.  In one disapproved case it was about the safety of the dog and in another the home was ok but it was how the owner represented her action if the dog should get sick.  A person who has habitually impulse buys would make a financial transactions with any breeder.  With the pet shop they would have paid full price while with the other choice of puppy supplier they would have to put down a unrefundable deposit.  Either way, their impulse would be satisfied.

I not buying the accusation that pet shop puppy buyers are impulsive buyers and I don't see what is wrong with making purchases by a card.  Someone who makes a major purchase, when that purchase requires a lot of subsequent care, and buys it on an impulse has a compulsive disorder and should seek professional help.  That is not the average puppy buyer.  For me, I very rarely use cash to make purchases.  I always use a plastic card.  Maybe years and years ago, a credit card transaction meant time payments, but not today.  The opposing arguers needs to come into the twenty-first century and drop such silly accusations.

DPU

Young, starting out, having or wanting a family is not a disqualification for adopting one of my fosters so from my point of view not a disqualification for any breeder.

Young/just starting out, maybe not....but every ethical breeder I know personally (and I know several) will refuse to place a puppy in a home that is expecting the arrival of a baby in the near future.  So...maybe not from your point of view....but you're not a breeder, and for the most part you don't rehome puppies, the raising of which requires a tremendous amount of time and effort and which would, understandably, be put on the back burner if the baby needs attention.  If you know any ethical breeders, perhaps you might ask them whether they have a policy on this issue.  Pet stores would do themselves out of a lot of business if they had such a policy, it is true.  Just last night I was watching a Q&A session with a major celebrity in which he told the story of buying a puppy from a pet store as a "trial run" for parenting while his wife was pregnant with their daughter.  And yes, he freely admitted it was an impulse purchase. 

Perhaps, in the interests of examining the differences between purchases from ethical breeders vs. pet shops, some of our breeders here will tell us whether they will send a puppy home to a family expecting a child.  

Benedict

Perhaps, in the interests of examining the differences between purchases from ethical breeders vs. pet shops, some of our breeders here will tell us whether they will send a puppy home to a family expecting a child.  

And maybe they can talk about that deposit thing.  Last weekend I sent out maybe 10 inquires via email to breeders that I was looking to adopt puppies.  For a first contact, I think I gave them more than needed information about me, what I want, and my home setup.  I did not follow their directions on their website because some had a deposit thing and I was only doing a cursory inquiry.  So far no responses and my first thought was the deposit, the money.

Benedict

Perhaps, in the interests of examining the differences between purchases from ethical breeders vs. pet shops, some of our breeders here will tell us whether they will send a puppy home to a family expecting a child.  

And if expecting a child means no sale, no money for the breeder, how do they confirm that situation does not exist?

Here's a situation I know of relating to buy pet store puppies.  A lady I work with wanted a miniature poodle for her family.  I educated her about puppy mills and such, and she agreed that a pet store would not be the way to go.  She first turned to a rescue organization, which turned her down because she has a young child in the home.  I then agreed to research reputable breeders for her, but the nearest one I could find was a 2 hour drive with an 8 month waiting list.  Her husband thought that was too much to deal with and she ended up getting a puppy from a pet shop.  The pup did have an initial case of kennel cough, but beyond that was and is still healthy, and she and her family absolutely adore the dog and are very happy with the decision they made.  Now the young child did at first tease the puppy a bit (which is why the rescue did not want to adopt to them) but 4 years later is now mature enough to know how to interact with the dog.  The dog is very well cared for, has regular vet care, and is in no danger whatsover of being dumped at a shelter or abandoned.  Now, this is not an irresponsible family that has no right to own a dog.  But it is a situation which was driven by convenience but with very little, if any,negative consequences to the owners.  It's also a case where education was not enough.