Dog walking off leash

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I don't know where all you folks with the agressive dogs running wild live, but around here, even though we don't really have a strict leash law I've only once met dogs off leash in a place that I didn't think was really appropriate for them to be off-leash-- a crowded public park. The two dogs in question were very well behaved, but it just didn't seem right to me. I had leashes on my guys.

We've had a lot more trouble with out-of-control leashed dogs. The little yappers running wild at the end of flexis. The leash-reactive dogs lunging and barking, and in one memorable occasion knocking the owner down and dragging her on her face behind him as he charged. The leash walkers who expect you to want their leashed dog to meet n greet your dogs and get all huffy when you object to such behavior. The weird leash-walkers who occasional show up in the off-leash areas and proceed to act holier than thou (I have a leash!) and yell at the off-leash walkers (that one really puzzles me-- what is the motivation? if you don't like off leash dogs don't come to the off leash running area).

Come to Northwest Indiana.  As I mentioned in a previous post, we had one incident where a pair of bull mastiffs who where off leash in a leash only park killed a family's shepard mix right in front of them and in another town near us a guy shot a GSD to keep it from killing his lab. 

I had an incident with Jack when he was 4 months old in the dog park parking lot (where the dog was not supposed to be off leash) where an ACD mix harassed use as we tried to get to the park and when Jack finally rolled over on his back the other dog pinned him and bit his face, all while the owner was 15 feet away saying "Oh now Shep, he's only a puppy.  Your getting aggressive now Shep--I don't like that."  A few months after that we saw that dog at the park again.  But guess what?  The time he was on a leash, so we were able to properly avoid him.

I went to the beach with my family last summer (a beach that was not supposed to have dogs to begin with) and found many loosh dogs there.  When we found a spot to put our blanket I had a loose border collie trot right up to me as we sat there, despite its owners calls.  I have been biten in the face and am very uncomfortable with a loose, strange dog flying up to me and getting in my face.

If an obnoxious dog is on leash at least they are somewhat contained and I can avoid them.  I can say "well, don't want to deal with that crap--I'll go this way."  Often with an off leash dog that is not under the owners control (and you usually don't know that until it is almost too late) the dog does not give you the option of avoiding it--it comes after you.  Even if someone has their dog on a flexi, I know how much line the dog has and can take steps to avoid the situation.

"I had to call AC on my next door neighbor, after trying for a year and a half to get her to control her Old English Sheepdogs."
 
I think this is where most law abiding people go wrong.  In order to avoid confrontation of any kind with the dog owners who don't care if they doo doo in your yard and in fact will come to your door (!) to complain about your complaint...NIP it in the bud and call AC, every time you see the loose dogs.
 
Don't wait for a miracle, they don't care, they won't stop.  If law says leashed, by God leash them...Or pay the fines and potentially they lose their dog(s).
 
The problems become seemingly insurmountable because people don't want to call the authorities.  Doesn't matter what you rationalize, if you call you and your responsible friends with animals will be much happier.  It is the only way to stop certain towns from being miserably out of control with animals gone wild.

It's takes more than just leashing a dog because you have a leash law and unleashing it because you don't have it. I used to live in a 'leash law' town, and a few neighbors would walk their dogs off leash; they were good dogs. One guy would always walk his ancient lab; the dog was old and not very healthy, kind, and basically glued to his owner. Legally that was BAD, and if it makes me for a bad, disobedient citizen for not saying a word to him - fine then, I am! I trust my common sense, and everybody else in the community seemed to either!

ORIGINAL: Benedict

Owning a dog seems to be more of a community effort here.

Exactly! 100% agree.

The opposite is true for law abiding owners, whose untrained dogs are on retractable leashes walking their owners around town, deciding which dog to engage with. Now, that's legal but BAD as far as I am concerned!

The opposite is true for law abiding owners, whose untrained dogs are on retractable leashes walking their owners around town, deciding which dog to engage with. Now, that's legal but BAD as far as I am concerned!

This is precisely why I'm glad that our leash law specifies length.  Technically, flexi-leads are breaking the law here, b/c 6 feet is the maximum length lead you can use off of your own property.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

The opposite is true for law abiding owners, whose untrained dogs are on retractable leashes walking their owners around town, deciding which dog to engage with. Now, that's legal but BAD as far as I am concerned!

This is precisely why I'm glad that our leash law specifies length. Technically, flexi-leads are breaking the law here, b/c 6 feet is the maximum length lead you can use off of your own property.

The kind of community that I'd like to live in is not obsessed with laws, restrictions and more restrictions. In the end, there will always be a "legal" idiot who allowed his dog to cause trouble on a 6 ft leash. That's how we wind up hearing about people suing microwave companies for not explicitly stating that *it's not OK* to dry your cat in a microwave oven...

The kind of community that I'd like to live in is not obsessed with laws, restrictions and more restrictions. In the end, there will always be a "legal" idiot who allowed his dog to cause trouble on a 6 ft leash. That's how we wind up hearing about people suing microwave companies for not explicitly stating that *it's not OK* to dry your cat in a microwave oven...

Right, but the kind of community I'd like to live in doesn't have gang wars and use pit bulls for dog fights or attacking human "enemies".  Unfortunately, such communities where everyone looks out for each other and uses common sense rarely exist and people just do heartless and idiotic things in general.  There's a lot of laws we wouldn't need if people use more common sense.  I'm not sitting here dancing around because we have a leash law, but in the area I grew up in, the leash law was a way of preventing incidents of escalating aggression.  The leash law is intended for owners who constantly allow their dangerous dogs to be at large.  No one here calls AC on their neighbors for letting a dog walk around the block or follow them to the park.  In my parents neighborhood there are two people who walk their dogs off-leash daily and no one cares b/c they are both old dogs that are really slow and couldn't chase a bunny if they wanted to.  But, my parents live in a neighborhood with people who keep dogs as part of the family, not like the neighborhood I grew up in where dogs were a means of profit through dog fights, a means of protection, or just a personal punching bag.  We have called AC when a random bulldog ran up to my sister riding her bike on the sidwalk and bit her.  You can't prove a dog's motivation or how aggressive it is, but a leash law makes it possible to legally say "no, it's not ok for your dog to be left outside without being contained and allowing it to bite kids in front of their own houses" or, "No, it's not good enough that your lab had 10 feet of flex lead and was able to maul someone else's dog."  It's not the answer, but it's better than nothing.  So yeah, I think leash laws are intended to deter and prevent dogs at large rather than punish pet owners out for a walk, but the law is still the law and even if I don't like it, I'll just have to comply or move elsewhere.   

For me it's sort of like rolling stops.  Everyone does them once in a while, and it's not all that bad.  No one intends to injure someone by doing a rolling stop just like owners don't intend for their dogs to attack another dog at the end of a flex lead.  But if you did a rolling stop and hit someone who did have the right of way, then the law that you have to stop at a stop sign protects that other person and holds you liable, just like if an aggressive dog at the end of a flex lead hurts another dog, the owner is still liable.

Has Anyone got any theories on why there are so many aggressive dogs around?? Could one reason be that from day 1 they are forced to be on a leash and are unable to naturally mix with other canines and learn how to react,could there be alot of frustration pent up inside these dogs because they are rarely allowed to run free and play with other dogs? Dogs just arent allowed to be dogs anymore [&:]

I know there are other reasons,but could leash laws be backfiring?

Has Anyone got any theories on why there are so many aggressive dogs around?? Could one reason be that from day 1 they are forced to be on a leash and are unable to naturally mix with other canines and learn how to react,could there be alot of frustration pent up inside these dogs because they are rarely allowed to run free and play with other dogs? Dogs just arent allowed to be dogs anymore

I know there are other reasons,but could leash laws be backfiring?

It could be.  I do think that this is part of it (constantly being leashed, missing out on many aspects of dog socialization).  It's a good question....  Maybe there aren't more aggressive dogs now, but "back then" aggressive dogs were simply shot?  I dunno...

MY dog isn't dog aggressive because she's been on a leash.

She is dog aggressive because that behavioral trait has been bred into her breed for over 200 years.

Edie, pit bulls can be FINE with other dogs for forever or they can be fine with them up until they mature into adult dogs. One little altercation with another dog can make a pit bull dog aggressive for forever. it's because they are predisposed to being dog aggressive since it is genetically in them.

I was just thinking about a debate i had on a British dog forum the other week.We were talking about exercising the dogs and when i mentioned that my dogs never wander far from me and come back when called etc etc i was more or less accused of having boring dogs.THEY preferred their dogs to have some spunk and thought nothing of them running off into the woods for 15-30 minutes and coming back when they were ready,they encouraged their dogs to run off ahead and explore,which i do too but my dogs just wont wander more than 30 feetish away from,so i have given up on that one.

Its just funny how different cultures view things []

MP, Tina K and Benedict are right on the money... and I am not surprised that in areas where there is less public space and more private space (suburbs), the dogs are less socialized and less controlled.

Owning a dog in a city takes serious effort, and is only made easier when your dog can be a respectful member of the whole community. Many restaurants (particularly French ones) in NYC thumb their noses at the no dogs rule and have a Dog Table that they offer on the downlow. I know of a few restaurants who take donations from dog owners to pay the fines. Almost all pubs and bars allow well-behaved dogs. Most stores that don't sell groceries do. Dogs who live in this city are on patios and sidewalk cafes and parks, constantly learning what is appropriate

(Laying down and chewing a bully stick! Running around with dogs you know! Coming when called!)

And what is not (um... that would include running up to strangers, licking babies in strollers, bothering anyone who is dining...)

When they get this much practice, dogs totally get it.

When they get this much practice, dogs totally get it.

Couldnt agree more [] 

Practice makes perfect,and how are they ever going to learn to interact appropriately if they are never given the chance? Once a week,or weekend romps just arent enough.

I beg to differ.  Tyler was perfect at Bark in the Park and he was on lead and met up with off lead and on lead dogs alike.  No problems, no issues.  We've had the same experience with all the dogs.  And, for the record, their off leash romps are pretty typically in a very isolated area where the only other living thing we see is wildlife.

I know there are other reasons,but could leash laws be backfiring?

YES!

MY dog isn't dog aggressive because she's been on a leash.

Your dog is not aggressive because she is on leash; of course not! You're cutting a whole chunk from the equation in efforts to explain her behavior. It doesn't just take you, your dog, and a leash - it takes cooperation from the whole community (including other dogs), officials, education, and time. Time that parents and general public are willing to take to educate theirs and neighborhood kids; and really, it's hard to explain, but that's how cultures are established.
You make a law, another law, and another; your government now has an upper hand in pushing down "common sense" onto people. Now you hear a terrible story from a woman whose kid was bit ... while a dog was on a leash, so you make another law on leash size. That will not stop an idiot from doing Y, so what's next? Another law to shorten the size of it? It's not about the size of your leash - thats' my basic point... Laws are fine, I do have a problem with people who stop right there.
It's interesting, but in Russia for example, it's illegal to buy alcohol until you turn 16; before 16 your parents have to buy it for you (it's never illegal to drink it). The law is in your parent's hands, not the government; the government (with all it's faults) trusts parents enough, and I do like that attitude.
But what about stupid people, one might ask? What about your average Joe? Well, in my opinion, no laws should be made to accommodate the lowest common denominator. If it starts out where people are trusting "common sense", it will continue that way; this pressure, in return, will help raise the knowledge of your average Joe. Same applies to socialization of your dogs. That's how it 'backfires', in a good sense [].

I was just thinking about a debate i had on a British dog forum the other week.We were talking about exercising the dogs and when i mentioned that my dogs never wander far from me and come back when called etc etc i was more or less accused of having boring dogs.THEY preferred their dogs to have some spunk and thought nothing of them running off into the woods for 15-30 minutes and coming back when they were ready,they encouraged their dogs to run off ahead and explore,which i do too but my dogs just wont wander more than 30 feetish away from,so i have given up on that one.

Its just funny how different cultures view things

Actually I do think there's a lot of merrit to the cultural aspect.  I'm told (maybe you can verify Edie) that in the UK the RSPCA will not allow people to adopt cats if the people are going to keep them indoors and don't own a "garden".  Here in the US, credible shelters will NOT allow you to adopt a cat if you're going to let it go outside or even if you have other cats that go outside.  I also had a conversation with someone from Germany and she was shocked that here you can have your cats taken away if someone files a report against you and the AC finds out that you don't regularly take your animals to the vet and get vaccinations.  She said that they never take their cats to the vet unless they appear to have something wrong.  Then, I had a cat conversation with a few girls from Australia who told me that where they live they think it is cruel to keep cats indoors.

It seems like other countries are more into letting animals be animals.  I don't think either is right or wrong, but I do think there are cultural differences.