Dog walking off leash

Also, can we PLEASE remember that some breeds are not cut out for being off-leash? It's not a matter of training. My coonhound has his CGC and is trained to a whistle recall but he's a coonhound. Coonhunters use very expensive radio collar systems with these dogs to find them after a hunt because they do not come back. A coonhound who leaves a trail and comes back to his owner is useless for his work. Similarily, the sled-pulling breeds also would be useless if they didn't have an instinct to run and run and run and not look back. I really am quite offended at the insinuation that we could all have off-leash dogs if only we would put enough training in to them (and somehow make dog-aggressive dogs magically not dog-aggressive but I guess that's just because DA dog owners are bad lazy owners too?).

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I have a vizlsa, and they don't call them velcro dogs for nothin'. He was born with a perfect recall. And I know two husky owners who run their dogs in my park on long lunge lines because they have terrible recall. Although I do have to say that there is a basenji who comes to the park who has pretty good recall.

I want to address the idea that there is a difference between suburban areas and urban ones.

Nobody here has a yard, and the dog runs here are distressingly tiny and make fights happen. During the work day, when there are one or two other people enjoying four acres of park, it is perfectly legit here to take your dog to the other side of the park and have some fun because it's a shared space and people in a city do expect to share their space with lots of different kinds of folks. We cooperate here more, and don't freak out and talk about spraying dogs with pepper spray and stabbings, because every single person who lives in a city has a hobby or a need that is going to get in somebody else's way at some point.

I think this creates an understanding that it's important for people to be nice and respectful and also tolerant.

And I am telling you that self-policing of offleash dogs works really well most of the time in the park, and creates a net Win. More people using the park during unpopular times means more safety and less crime. And because everyone has a vested interest in keeping the park a cool offleash location, dog owners are really good about telling eachother when they are being rude. Dogs are kept onleashes or under very strict verbal and visual control on the weekends when strollers and picnicers are out. And the dog people watch out for vulnerable middle-of-the-day populations like teenage vandals and the pre-school age kids of the guys who fish. Everybody gets more.

Laws are not the only way to create structure and good outcomes.

Yes, it certainly has gotten out of hand.
 
When we were at Bark in the Park Saturday there were a number of dogs off lead.  My mother is a little old lady who has been afraid of dogs for all of her life....or all of it that I have known her.  She adores Tyler....the big gsd.....but she sure kept her distance from the offleash dogs.  Tyler, took it all in stride.  Tyler was on a long line so he could romp a bit.  My Mom's assisted living apartment is part of the old state hospital.  These are fabulous old buildings on a multi acre campus...a small village.....that are being lovingly restored by a private developer.  This is PRIVATE property but with public access and use. 
 
As we were standing beside a little stream a bicycle cop started giving the two retriever types owners what for because their dogs were off lead and wading in the stream. Tyler was just watching.
 
I said to the cop that the two dogs were totally under their owners control and just enjoying a dip on a hot day.  He gave Tyler a good long look and then asked why MY boy was leashed.....well, because we live in the country and Tyler doesn't have a lot of street smarts and he makes me nervous near said streets, but the long line allows him to romp a bit in the really safe areas which we were in.  Then he wants to know why I am ok keeping my dog leashed (said dog is wearing his MS Walk medalion and still wearing his power partner slip on his collar) but think its ok for others to keep theirs off lead....since clearly I work with my dog and he's clearly just finished the MS Walk and he figures that my dog must be pretty darned good to be allowed to do that walk.....
 
My dog is still pretty young, and still pretty dumb about streets.  In town walks are on lead and he automatically stops and sits at streets but when he is off lead, streets=danger doesn't quite compute yet.  The 50 foot lead reminds him of his street lessons.  He knows that he isn't to go further than the line whether I am holding it or not.  Does he need it?  Probably not, but particularly in public areas I want to be darned sure that I have total control and sometimes stuff happens that we can't forsee.  That line is my insurance policy.  Tyler won't even go say hello to a dog, leashed or not, without my permission.  And, Tyler is a german shepherd and like it or not, some folks are still afraid of gsds.  He is a wonderful ambassador for his breed and that's what I want folks to remember....how well behaved, gentle and kind this whooping huge dog is.
 
Again he wants to know why I think it's ok for those other two dogs to be off lead.  Because they are 100% in control of their owners who are standing RIGHT beside the stream watching their dogs wade.  And, I reminded him that all of us are standing on private property, not in a public city park, despite the fact that folks still use it as such.  That the land and the buildings ARE privately owned.  He finally gave up, warned the other ladies to control their dogs and moved on.
 
THEY were astounded that I stood up for them while my dog was leashed, and of course Mother was shocked that I argued with a cop over someone elses dogs.  The bottom line is, I had Tyler on the long line for his safety.  When he is offlead, it's in an area totally devoid of other people, pets are roads.  It's a safe place and my dogs know the difference.  Offlead = safe, on leash = be more careful.  Am I going to work with him offlead in areas that are not 100% safe?  Nope.  It's "easier" for me to keep him on the long line and let it drag in safe areas and only pick it up when we approach a not so safe area.  WITH the line, he'll stop at a street, even if he's at the end of the 50' line...without it, I'm not sure and I don't want to find out the hard way.
 
So, go ahead and label me a bad owner as well.  I'll live.  And so will my dogs.

What I was trying to get across is the fact that the members here are pretty much responsible for their dogs, and know what and when to do the right thing at any given time. Some dogs don't get to run off leash, some do.....it all depends on the situation and if the owners feel it is safe or not.........I live out in the sticks, my dogs don't take off, but, in other situations they don't get to run, based on the environment they are in at the time.......for example, we have taken some to the beach, they were on the leash the whole time until late at night when there was nobody around. I could have let them run loose sooner, but some people feel uncomfortable with loose dogs. there is somewhat of a breed discrimination. Some owners of Labs and Goldens feel that anybody will love their dogs, in my case some people are scared.....I take that into consideration.

Exactly Snownose.  And actually my post wasnt' so much in reply to anything you had said OTHER than that this was getting out of hand.  Just in case you think that I was picking on you!

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

I am not saying the UK is better or worse, but certainly I am saying that attitudes are different. Aggressive dogs are kept away and walked in secluded areas, away from other dogs. (This I know, because I know 3 people with DA dogs and they tell me how they handle it.) I don't know anyone who doesn't take their dog to training classes.

Do you feel the banned breed list has had an effect on this? Do you think people worry more about DA because their country has taken the dramatic step of basically outlawing breeds based on perceived behaviors? Asking from honest curiosity...I know if I had a DA dog in a country that banned breed for aggression...I'd probably be worried all the time, regardless of the breed.

Ugh, I had a whole long response typed out and then I lost it.

The short answer is no, I don't think so, for 2 reasons:

1. Contrary to popular belief, there are NO truly banned breeds in the UK. Owners of pit bulls, tosas, filas and dogos are required by law to have their dog registered on a list, spayed/neutered and muzzled in public. Subject to those conditions, they may still be owned here. Other bully breeds are incredibly common here....I would wager that there are more Staffs in my city than Labs.

2. Every one of my friends with an aggressive dog takes precautions out of consideration for other dogs and owners, not out of fear of breed legislation. They realise that were their dog to cause harm to a human or animal, it would be euthanised, but I realise that too. It's one of the reasons I have comprehensive pet insurance - if Ben were to cause any injury, I am covered up to a value of....I think it's $4 million USD.

Owning a dog seems to be more of a community effort here. One day not long after I was first able to take Ben out, I went to my local park in the early evening, and there was a group of dogs and owners there. I approached, cautiously, and asked if Ben could join in. I was welcomed with open arms and over the course of the next several weeks and months, the dogs in that pack socialised Ben with other dogs, taught him manners and trained him by example in ways I never could. He is a much better dog than he would have been without them. I meet those owners on the park every weekday at a set time, and our dogs play and romp together. Apart from that hour, none of us are friends, many are people I wouldn't choose to spend an evening in a pub with, but I can leave Ben in their care while I walk over to the poop bin to deposit his offering. The safety and comfort of the pack is paramount, not just of our own individual dogs. Every one of us, when needed, will jump in to help a dog if another is playing too rough, regardless of whether the "victim" is our dog or not. We recall each other's dogs when needed, treat each other's dogs for good behaviour, and give each other's dogs water when they are thirsty. All of us watch all the dogs, and make sure the pack dynamic is operating as it should. If I was at that park and got a phone call saying my house was on fire, I could hand Ben's leash to any one of them and know he would be looked after as if he were their own for as long as necessary, and they would do it without question. I would do it for any one of their dogs.

Everyone I know does what they need to do to keep their dogs happy and safe. For some that's keeping a dog that won't recall on-leash. For some that's making sure the bigger dogs don't get too rough. For some that's making sure their dog is never in a position to hurt another dog. The prevailing attitude here is that whatever you have to do, it is a small sacrifice for owning the dog you love.

ORIGINAL: rolenta

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

There was a dog owner in a very heavily wooded park ( Yellow River)  that I frequent on occasion ,  about 10 miles from my home, that had an off leash dog charge up to him and attack his dog about 2 years ago. I guess his dog sustained some serious injuries. Last summer, about 2 years later,  these same 2 men bumped into each other again at the same park, with the same dog off leash.  The owner, whose dog had been attacked the first time, pulled a knife out of his pocket  and stabbed  the other dog owner . He was DOA at the hospital.  I am not sure what happened to the guy that stabbed the other, but it shows what can happen when someone feels  that their dog may be attacked by someone's off leash dog. At this same park now, there are signs all over the place about leashing your dog..   

That is indeed a scary story, but it's a bit extreme, don't you think? I mean, I don't keep my dog leashed to keep from getting stabbed.

It wasn't the dog that got stabbed, it was the owner. The point of the story was that if an off leash dog attacks a dog that is leashed, the off leash dog's owner  may find themselves  in a really bad situation with the owner of the dog that is attacked.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Wait, you're okay with the possibilty of your dog being mauled because what choice do you have? What choice do you have? You could keep your dog on a leash in public areas and encourage others to do so. That's the choice I've made.

Also, can we PLEASE remember that some breeds are not cut out for being off-leash? It's not a matter of training. My coonhound has his CGC and is trained to a whistle recall but he's a coonhound. Coonhunters use very expensive radio collar systems with these dogs to find them after a hunt because they do not come back. A coonhound who leaves a trail and comes back to his owner is useless for his work. Similarily, the sled-pulling breeds also would be useless if they didn't have an instinct to run and run and run and not look back. I really am quite offended at the insinuation that we could all have off-leash dogs if only we would put enough training in to them (and somehow make dog-aggressive dogs magically not dog-aggressive but I guess that's just because DA dog owners are bad lazy owners too?).

I'd like to address this. I am one of those bad owners who has a dog aggressive dog breed. I am working VERY, VERY, VERY hard with my dog on this issue. BUT IT IS INNATE, INBORN, GENETIC, however you want to say it, IT IS UNHELPABLE (<---is that even a word?). How she reacts to me, and to other dogs WHILE ON LEASH, IS workable.

But don't EVER, EVER imply that I am a bad owner when I am simply following the LAWS in my area because my dog is not allowed off leash. And you know what, Edie? If you are walking your dogs OFF LEASH, in a town or area with leash laws, you'd better pray to GOD that you know your dogs' behaviors and know that if an ON LEASH dog aggressive dog gives them a challenging look, you'd better KNOW that they won't react to it. You'd better know that their recall is as 100% as you think it is. You'd better know it like the back of your hand. Because if not, you have NO right, NONE, to have your dogs off leash around people and other dogs. You'd better know how to read canine body language and interpret it to a "T". Or else you're not only risky the safety of YOUR dogs, but possibly the safety of the on leash dog as well.


I love how people who are KNOWINGLY breaking the laws by allowing their dogs off leash, get all defensive with people who actually follow the laws and leash their dogs.

And, no, it's not EASIER for me to leash MY dog. It's SAFER.

I guess I am surprised when people brag about the fact that they break the law, whatever the law is. The people that I have personally met that do this at the several parks that I visit every day, usually turn out to have some really bad attitudes and an inability to get along with other users of the park. They don't get away with it for long, however, because other park visitors  are pretty quick to tell them off and or call 911, if the dogs aren't leashed.

ORIGINAL: houndlove
Also, can we PLEASE remember that some breeds are not cut out for being off-leash? It's not a matter of training. My coonhound has his CGC and is trained to a whistle recall but he's a coonhound. Coonhunters use very expensive radio collar systems with these dogs to find them after a hunt because they do not come back. A coonhound who leaves a trail and comes back to his owner is useless for his work. Similarily, the sled-pulling breeds also would be useless if they didn't have an instinct to run and run and run and not look back. I really am quite offended at the insinuation that we could all have off-leash dogs if only we would put enough training in to them (and somehow make dog-aggressive dogs magically  not dog-aggressive but I guess that's just because DA dog owners are bad lazy owners too?).

 
Amen to this! Cadie and Ri are both setters, and with this comes a big thing with small animals and birds. Cadie chases rabbits out of the yard (it's fenced in), and there's no stopping her - that instinct just kicks in and it would be pretty hard to train that instinct out of her, because it is so natural for her. Riley has a thing for birds already, sometimes points, and he wants to go after them when they're on the ground. It's purely natural. So no, I will never let my dogs off leash unless in my own fenced backyard.
 
And I agree that many people who have dog aggressive dogs are wonderful owners and people. I doubt anyone would choose to have a DA dog, and trying to rid a dog of it if possible is so hard.
 
I have been avoiding this thread, but some comments really made me want to put in my 2 cents. As many others have said, if the law requires a leash in a certain area, leash the dog. If not, it is up to you. Even if no one else is around in an area which prohibits off-leash dogs, is it not alright to let your dogs off leash, no matter how many people, dogs, etc. are around. Not only is it breaking the law, more importantly it is not safe for your dog. I want to keep my dogs safe, as well as other people (don't want Cadie chasing a rabbit and zooming in front of a bikerider!) so I leash them. Not because they are aggressive, or because they are disobedient but I know my dogs and the instincts they have, which are too strong to let my dogs be off leash.
 
Last summer I remember my family brought Cadie to the park, on leash of course. Suddenly a pit bull came up and was sniffing Cadie and wouldn't leave her alone - no aggression at all, but still it was annoying. The owners finally called the dog back, I look to see, and they are at least one half of a mile away (the path goes around a lake so you can see everyone else). Now, if Cadie was dog aggressive and bit this PB, it would be the PB owner's fault because dogs must be on leashes. Even if it was an off leash park, that PB's safety was jeopardy because it was not on a leash.
 
Also, even if your dog has a solid recall, I don't see why letting it off leash where it is illegal to do so is somehow justified. If a DA dog were to appear and start snarling at yours, you never know (at least IMO) how your dog would react. I think dogs can sense things, in other dogs and people as well that may trigger them to do behaviors which we seldom see them do.
 
Edie, I doubt chewbecca was trying to make you feel bad. And aggressive owners do not make for aggressive dogs! Some dogs just happen to feel naturally threatened by other dogs, and will attack them offensively or defensively. It does not hint at any fault in the owner. Training a DA dog to not react to other dogs is extremely difficult, and one off leash dog that runs up to a DA dog can ruin everything, and puts itself and the DA dog in a bad situation. If an off leash dog runs up to a leashed DA dog, and that leashed DA dog challengers the off leash one, you may find that your well behaved off leash dog will not just run back to you when you call. That would mean the dog would turn its back on a dog who is threatening it. And if the leashed DA dog or the off leash dog should start a fight, it is going to take much more time to get them apart as only one person can pull the dog away with its leash. I doubt a dog would show its solid recall when being attacked by another dog, and this means it would take longer for the owner to run over, stop it, and separate them. This results in more injuries and harm to both dogs, both physically and mentally.
 
Again, I leash my dogs because it is safe for them and for other dogs, not to mention small critters. My dogs are well behaved and obedient, but they are dogs nonetheless and a leash is all it takes to prevent a number of bad situations. I run in a field with Cadie and Riley (separately) at my side, both on leashes. They are getting plenty of exercise, so there is no excuse for me not to leash them.

I don't know where all you folks with the agressive dogs running wild live, but around here, even though we don't really have a strict leash law I've only once met dogs off leash in a place that I didn't think was really appropriate for them to be off-leash-- a crowded public park. The two dogs in question were very well behaved, but it just didn't seem right to me. I had leashes on my guys.
 
We've had a lot more trouble with out-of-control leashed dogs. The little yappers running wild at the end of flexis. The leash-reactive dogs lunging and barking, and in one memorable occasion knocking the owner down and dragging her on her face behind him as he charged. The leash walkers who expect you to want their leashed dog to meet n greet your dogs and get all huffy when you object to such behavior. The weird leash-walkers who occasional show up in the off-leash areas and proceed to act holier than thou (I have a leash!) and yell at the off-leash walkers (that one really puzzles me-- what is the motivation? if you don't like off leash dogs don't come to the off leash running area).

As far as "aggressive owners make aggressive dogs", I have to disagree.  I think that in some cases this is true, but such owners are actively and intently training their dogs to be aggressive.  However, at least around here, most people get their dog from the shelter.  I'm sure everyone here knows that dogs in a shelter are in a very stressful, unnatural environment and us volunteers tell people to expect the opposite of what they are seeing in the shelter.  For example, we had a beautiful purebred Akita.  In  the shelter, she was quiet and calm, never barked or jumped.  Outside of the shelter, she was very dominant even over humans and would like to KILL any female dog within a 50 yard radius.  Everyone wanted to adopt her b/c she seemed so well behaved and gentle.....mmmm, no.  But anyway...that's the thing with shelter dogs.  The temperament test can't test for everything, and just the shelter environment can turn a "nice" dog into an insecure, aggressive dog.  The owners can't know this until the dog has been home and a few weeks later they are out on a walk and BAM Fido tried to eat someone's Jack Russell.

Yes, training is crucial, but I find it slightly ironic that some people are advocating in favor of off-leash exercise because dogs "need" that type of training and socialization, but then blaming dog-aggressive owners for attempting to walk their dogs in public, as if those dogs should just be quarantined and not get ANY walk or training at all.

Also, we cannot assume that a person walking a dog is even the owner.  I've done pet-sitting and dog walking for three dog-aggressive dogs.  One was 80 lbs, one was 95 lbs, and one was 115 lbs.  As the pet-sitter who only has the dog for a week or so, my main responsibility is to exercise the dog and keep it out of trouble.  I'm sure plenty of people have seen me with these dogs and thought I was a horrible person for taking "my" dog on a walk and it barking at their precious Dachshund weaving figured 8s around the dog's legs.  The way I see it is I'm getting paid to walk dogs that I KNOW I can control on a leash and I have every right to walk these dogs on public property using a leash that meets the requirements of the city's leash law.  Please don't assume that no one is working with the dog on it's aggression, or that such dogs are even mine.  It's not really my place to be telling owners that they should just kennel the dog and never let it out until the aggression dissipates.  I do what they want, within the confines of the law, and I make suggestions that they can take or leave.

However, at least around here, most people get their dog from the shelter.  I'm sure everyone here knows that dogs in a shelter are in a very stressful, unnatural environment and us volunteers tell people to expect the opposite of what they are seeing in the shelter.  For example, we had a beautiful purebred Akita.  In  the shelter, she was quiet and calm, never barked or jumped.  Outside of the shelter, she was very dominant even over humans and would like to KILL any female dog within a 50 yard radius.  Everyone wanted to adopt her b/c she seemed so well behaved and gentle.....mmmm, no.  But anyway...that's the thing with shelter dogs.  The temperament test can't test for everything, and just the shelter environment can turn a "nice" dog into an insecure, aggressive dog.

 
First of all I agree that dogs are totally different in a shelter/kennel setting HOWEVER the shelter/kennel must be knowledgeable about the breed.  When I worked for a breeding/show kennel we had three Akitas that were imported from Japan to show.  One of the bitches got injured and was not "correct" anymore so they were going to send her back to Japan to use for breeding.  The owner didn't want her and was going to have her put down.  I agreed to take her in as my own and started doing research on the Akita breed.  I talked to some breeders and was told by several they are not the right dog for everyone.  They can be highly aggressive to other dogs.  As far as that particular dog...doesn't it seem strange to you that she all-of-a-sudden became Alpha?  Sorry that is something any good shelter evaluator should be able to tell regardless of the setting.  Take the dog for a walk in the park...that Alpha will come out. 

Please don't assume that no one is working with the dog on it's aggression, or that such dogs are even mine.  It's not really my place to be telling owners that they should just kennel the dog and never let it out until the aggression dissipates.

As far as dog walking.  I have been a pet sitter for 4 years and I have taken care of a few dogs that were aggressive.  I use caution with every dog I walk because I usually don't know what dogs are aggressive and what ones aren't.  During interviews I do ask about aggressive tendencies but most owners think their dogs are perfect angels.  It is up to you as a pet sitter (stranger in the home) to bring out the BEST in that pet.  Walk into a house with confidence and a pocketful of treats.  I once took care of a pair of pit bulls that scared off every other pet sitter and dog walker.  The dogs were perfect angels with me.  I could even walk them in the park with out a problem.  Yes they were aggressive the first visit and growled at me...however I didn't back down I talked to them in a sweet tone and tossed treats at them.  Now they see me as a friend. Being a dog walker is not an excuse for not controlling a dog. It is your right as a business owner to turn down jobs for dogs you can't control.  YOU are the one responsible if the dog injures someone (unless the offender is an unleashed dog).  If the dog you are walking bites the owner of the unleashed dog you might have a lawsuite to deal with.  If the dog in your charge breaks loose of you and bites another person or dog YOU will probably get fined and have to pay damages. 

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Also, can we PLEASE remember that some breeds are not cut out for being off-leash? It's not a matter of training. I really am quite offended at the insinuation that we could all have off-leash dogs if only we would put enough training in to them

 
I want to say that I probably could let Xerk off lead for some of our excursions.  Never the ones that are next to the road though.  But I don't for a couple of reasons.  The first being that the number one killer of sighthounds is the automobile.  The second being that if he were to stir up a deer, the chase could go on for several miles.  Third is that there are leash laws here, except for designated off lead dog areas.
 
Off lead dogs aren't too common around here, because I live in a heavily patrolled area, both by animal control and the police.

The short answer is no, I don't think so, for 2 reasons:

1. Contrary to popular belief, there are NO truly banned breeds in the UK. Owners of pit bulls, tosas, filas and dogos are required by law to have their dog registered on a list, spayed/neutered and muzzled in public. Subject to those conditions, they may still be owned here. Other bully breeds are incredibly common here....I would wager that there are more Staffs in my city than Labs.

 
Interesting. It was my understanding that you were not allowed to breed, buy or sell the breeds in question...nor import them from elsewhere. Thus if all in country are s/n that'd pretty much be "no more ever" right? Or are you still allowed to breed them? Feel free to PM me...this is off topic after all.

First of all I agree that dogs are totally different in a shelter/kennel setting HOWEVER the shelter/kennel must be knowledgeable about the breed. When I worked for a breeding/show kennel we had three Akitas that were imported from Japan to show. One of the bitches got injured and was not "correct" anymore so they were going to send her back to Japan to use for breeding. The owner didn't want her and was going to have her put down. I agreed to take her in as my own and started doing research on the Akita breed. I talked to some breeders and was told by several they are not the right dog for everyone. They can be highly aggressive to other dogs. As far as that particular dog...doesn't it seem strange to you that she all-of-a-sudden became Alpha? Sorry that is something any good shelter evaluator should be able to tell regardless of the setting. Take the dog for a walk in the park...that Alpha will come out.

In the case of the Akita, she was only released to someone with no small kids and who had Akita experience.  Most of our dogs are mutts, so we cannot make and credible inferences based on breed traits and most dogs come in with no disclosure as to their history.  But the point of the example was to illustrate that it's the owners that often don't know about dog aggression.  I'm not talking about dog savvy people, but just JQP who go down to the shelter looking for a family pet.  In my experience, JQP tends to polarize dog behaviors, so for them there are nice dogs and then there are attack dogs.  Many don't realize that most pet dogs will in fact struggle with some issue like insecurity, dog aggression, resource guarding, etc.

I only brought it up b/c some seem to have the attitude that certain people are chosing dogs that are aggressive and feeding their aggression, and I don't think that that's true.  A lot of people with dog aggressive dogs have shelter adoptees and rescues.  We can't expect them to just give the dog back.  Training and socialization is a reasonable expectation, but that can take months and years and won't happen in just a backyard.

As far as dog walking. I have been a pet sitter for 4 years and I have taken care of a few dogs that were aggressive. I use caution with every dog I walk because I usually don't know what dogs are aggressive and what ones aren't. During interviews I do ask about aggressive tendencies but most owners think their dogs are perfect angels. It is up to you as a pet sitter (stranger in the home) to bring out the BEST in that pet. .........YOU are the one responsible if the dog injures someone (unless the offender is an unleashed dog). If the dog you are walking bites the owner of the unleashed dog you might have a lawsuite to deal with. If the dog in your charge breaks loose of you and bites another person or dog YOU will probably get fined and have to pay damages.

I don't disagree.  My latest dog WAS dog aggressive and they disclosed this right away.  Once I had her out and two Dachshunds came by and we were able to pass with manageable lunging and barking.  For her, THAT was a HUGE improvement.

Also, I was not advocating for dog aggressive dogs to be off-lead.  I was simply saying that just because a dog is dog aggressive doesn't mean they should be confined to a yard and never walked.  I kept dog aggressive dogs on 4 ft. leads and collars that they can't get out of.  I know I can keep them within arm's length even if they are to lunge for another dog.  Again, the dog aggressive dog I was just taking care of was ALWAYS leashed and the dogs we passed were not leashed (a Golden whose owner was not paying attention to him at all) or on long flex leads (those Dachshunds).  I'm not making accusations against dog aggressive dogs OR other owners with off-leash or flex lead dogs, all I'm saying is that one can't assume that owners with dog aggressive dogs are aggressive owners since often, the owners are not even the people training and walking the dogs.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I don't know where all you folks with the agressive dogs running wild live, but around here, even though we don't really have a strict leash law I've only once met dogs off leash in a place that I didn't think was really appropriate for them to be off-leash-- a crowded public park.

California! In the suburbs.

I had to call AC on my next door neighbor, after trying for a year and a half to get her to control her Old English Sheepdogs.  Not only would they and my dog fight if given the chance (making it hard for me to take my dog out on leash) one of them developed a terrifying fixation on my toddler, and had snapped at her without provocation.  (He snuck up from behind).  Yes, I know they are herding dogs but he would see her across the street, and come after her.  Not okay!

This lady would actually allow her dogs out in the front yard while she was inside. They'd wander our street as they liked, and pooped in my yard several times a week.  The sketchy one would sometimes charge me as I tried to get my mail.  Her response?  Her dogs are harmless, I was causing their behavior and teaching my daughter to be afraid of animals.  When I politely asked her to keep her dogs on her property, she hung up on me.  Her husband later came to our house and yelled at us for "harrassing" his wife. 

Neighbor relations are now ice cold, but at least I can step outside my front door without being afraid my kid is going to be attacked. 

Is this a suburb thing?  Or just a my neighborhood thing?  Most of my problems with off leash and roaming dogs have happened within a mile of my house.