2 dogs, bro and sis, when/how to prevent Caligula/Nero puppies ???

ORIGINAL: danehaven

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I hope my post isn't considered any of those things because I was just being truthful and trying to inform....[8|]

Wow.  Upsetting thread.
 
Real life experience.  My two oldest shepherds.  Thor nailed Sheba through the door of the crate in her first heat.  We know for certain that's what happened because that was the ONLY access he had to her.  Result, two pups who lived for less than 3 days.  Next time around, double crated.  I ran down stairs to switch the laundry and a foster child let her out to "play" with Thor.  This kid was scared spitless of the dogs, but for whatever reason LET HER OUT TO PLAY!!  Bam, nailed again.  Result, one pup, who we call Shadow.  We moved long distance, didn't get settled with a vet fast enough and THEY DROVE ME NUTS.  Both boys were snipped that heat cycle because there was NO way on earth I was going to run the risk of another OPPPS.
 
And mine were not brother and sister, and mine come from outstanding lines.  However, no genetic testing had been done, I do not show so they aren't proven, AND my female is white, which is an AKC disqualification.  None of my five males miss their "jewels" in the least.

Real life experience. My two oldest shepherds. Thor nailed Sheba through the door of the crate in her first heat. We know for certain that's what happened because that was the ONLY access he had to her. Result, two pups who lived for less than 3 days. Next time around, double crated. I ran down stairs to switch the laundry and a foster child let her out to "play" with Thor. This kid was scared spitless of the dogs, but for whatever reason LET HER OUT TO PLAY!! Bam, nailed again. Result, one pup, who we call Shadow. We moved long distance, didn't get settled with a vet fast enough and THEY DROVE ME NUTS. Both boys were snipped that heat cycle because there was NO way on earth I was going to run the risk of another OPPPS.

Excellent example Glenda.. and exactly why S/N is so important.  Even with best intentions... and all the prayer and wishful thinking in the world.. you are not going to be able to stop what has "biologically" been made to be so. 

To the OP... not sure where you get the idea that your furkids are going to NOT have a "normal life" should you do the responsible thing and "mutilate" them out of sheer convenience.

I guess I'll be the first to make the suggestion....
*content removed*

Heheheh. You know, it would a comforting thought, but somehow I don't think so.

But we can all choose to treat it as such since I don't think anyone's making any headway here anyway.

It's been an interesting thread. Wow.

The OP was awfully quick to make everyone wrong who responded.  It seemed like a totally out of proportion reaction - like s/he was listening for "political" responses and then laid the smack down anyway when s/he didn't quite get the rise s/he was going for. 

I learned more about Caligula and Nero in this thread than anything else.  [8|]

Shutting up now before I get red inked![]

You may not have to do anything. The female may not allow it and the male may respect the female's wishes

 
I'm glad that worked for you, but it can have less than stellar consequences. I know a person who took that approach and it worked for several years. Right now she's trying to find homes for an Oops litter of mixed breed uppies that her seven year old bitch had. The seven year old bitch is extremely run down and shouldn't have had this litter.

ORIGINAL: Stacita

You may not have to do anything. The female may not allow it and the male may respect the female's wishes

I'm glad that worked for you, but it can have less than stellar consequences. I know a person who took that approach and it worked for several years. Right now she's trying to find homes for an Oops litter of mixed breed uppies that her seven year old bitch had. The seven year old bitch is extremely run down and shouldn't have had this litter.

 
No Stacita, not you, ME.  I am so glad it worked out.  By now, you should know that I am a super cautious, detail, petty, safety and security minded guy when it comes to my dogs.  I also know my dogs very well.  If I was presented with Callie's approach/delivery and the info in her post, my dog probably would have been spayed before her 3 season.  But my experience is real and needs to be put out there.  It is up to others to show in a persusive manner the errors of my ways.  I don't like being judged and I am also certain everyone else does not like it either.  Factual information and experience is pretty power stuff to change someone's thinking and give education. 
 
From another thread, I just picked up this little bit of information about spaying before 7 years old.  My intent is not to argue but to show how a person dealing with a decision can easily get confused.
 
"Vets also agree it is better to keep your male intact because it is healthier, but a female should be spayed before 7 years of age due to the risk of pyro.  I dont agree with the neutering.  Whether or not it is healthier isnt the problem, it is the fact a male can get loose and breed and we have more unwanted puppies."

I would love to talk to "these" vets.....My vet won't even take an animal unless it's spayed or neutered....He's a GOOD vet

This reminds me of this funny story where a male guinea pig got through a fence into the female pen and mated with TWENTY FOUR females!!  Sheesh, if a tiny male guinea pig can bust through a fence and get it on 24 times, I'm sure nothing short of concrete slab can stop a male dog!

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: Stacita

You may not have to do anything. The female may not allow it and the male may respect the female's wishes

I'm glad that worked for you, but it can have less than stellar consequences. I know a person who took that approach and it worked for several years. Right now she's trying to find homes for an Oops litter of mixed breed puppies that her seven year old bitch had. The seven year old bitch is extremely run down and shouldn't have had this litter.

  It is up to others to show in a persusive manner the errors of my ways.  I don't like being judged and I am also certain everyone else does not like it either. 

You put forth a dangerous opinion, and it is up to others to prove you wrong? If you expect to BE proven wrong, why post the opinion in the first place?

I am genuinely asking this question, it's not meant as sarcasm.

Edit to change a typo.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

This reminds me of this funny story where a male guinea pig got through a fence into the female pen and mated with TWENTY FOUR females!!  Sheesh, if a tiny male guinea pig can bust through a fence and get it on 24 times, I'm sure nothing short of concrete slab can stop a male dog!

 
That has to be the cutest Guinea Pig I've ever seen. The horny little bugger!!
 
With that said, In regards to DPU's response. The OP asked for advice and DPU gave his opinion and shared his experience. While DPU's experience is not for everyone, and even he stated so, advice and experiences were asked and DPU giveth. That's the way I feel about that.

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

Would like to let them get a couple of years of normal life before I mutilate them for the sake of my convenience.

[color="#000000"][size="3"]With all due respect, there is nothing "normal" about not allowing a female in heat to mate.  It drives both the female and many nearby males crazy.  Note that that includes both the intact, male dogs and many of the neutered, male dogs belonging to your neighbors.
 
Here is a list of medical reasons for considering neutering or spaying:
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Actually, my vet prefers not to "fix" a dog before it is a year old for males and before it goes into it's first heat for females.  I've heard from her and from others that if you fix a dog too early you can end up with immature muscle mass and a really immature dog - training wise. You'll end up with a flippy, floppy mushy hyper dog for the rest of the dogs life.  My mother and I chose not to get Joey fixed until he was 1 year.

I'm not by any means against spaying and nuetering.  I have just heard that their are reasons why you should wait till the dog is a little older to do it.

An intact male dog that smells a female in heat will go through, over and under virtually ANYTHING that gets in their way. Due to this, you really should get him neautered, and the female spayed just in case of accidental, unexpected, or out-of-nowhere breeding with unknown stray dogs or the neighbor's Mastiff...
 
A dog will break a boat chain to get to a female in heat, go over a line of trucks in its way, and dodge through the pesky, quick animal control officers that attempt to stop it. The intact male dog will do anything and will OCCOMPLISH anything it wants when it comes to a female dog in heat.

ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo

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Actually, my vet prefers not to "fix" a dog before it is a year old for males and before it goes into it's first heat for females. I've heard from her and from others that if you fix a dog too early you can end up with immature muscle mass and a really immature dog - training wise. You'll end up with a flippy, floppy mushy hyper dog for the rest of the dogs life. My mother and I chose not to get Joey fixed until he was 1 year.

I'm not by any means against spaying and nuetering. I have just heard that their are reasons why you should wait till the dog is a little older to do it.

Actually, I'm on a list of elkhound owners and breeders and there has been quite some discussion about waiting until later to spay and neuter. The consensus after looking at recent research (sorry, I don't have the links at the moment but will attempt to find them) that spaying a female is best done after the first heat and for a male at a year or two.

The reasons do have to do with wanting a mature animal and not a dog that behaves immaturely, and for bone and muscle mass. I think the statements about dog emotional maturity are far overdone. I've had spayed and neutered males and females and they were definitely mature animals that weren't "flippy, floppy mushy hyper" dogs.

There was one breeder who maintained that I'd never had an un-altered animal so how did I know the difference. Which is untrue. I have had both and I think the main reason to spay, besides not having puppies, is to prevent pyometra, a really awful and insidious infection of the uterus. I have not seen any huge differences in behavior between my neutered and un-neutered dogs over the years.

As far as male dogs goes, it's easier to let them keep their nuggets until they are fully matured and then get them neutered.

If you are showing, then of course you will have to keep them both intact, male and female, and I would advise boarding the male during the female's estrus.

If they tie then you'll be spaying your female anyway, so why risk it? I don't think I'd use mere bitches britches and belly bands to keep them apart. I wouldn't trust such mechanical methods. However I haven't had little dogs in a long time and am not a breeder, so take my advice for what it's worth.