2 dogs, bro and sis, when/how to prevent Caligula/Nero puppies ???

and conversely, the best argument I've heard for *early* spay in particular is when you spay (particularly if the spay isn't done 'well') you essentially take away the way the bladder should be attached and held up in the body ... and if the bladder sags too much it leads to spay incontinence.  When an early spay (specifically the laser spay done at a couple of months when they simply cauterize the sex organs so they don't develop) is done the bladder simply attaches itself as it grows and spay incontinence is less likely to happen.  Seems there are reasons for both sides.
 
I still say -- it is a kindness since we literally control their "morality".  I would think the OP might truly be happier with fish.  Less decisions.

Thanks  Jeano, DPU. 
The absence of hysteria is appreciated.
*content removed*
Again, good info.

Both my early spay bitches has problems with incontinence,,, however, I prefer that to pyo.

I've never run into a female with spay incontinence, and most females I have met were spayed before their first heat. 

For what its worth this includes both my Mother's dog, and every female dog I've groomed (I used to be a groomer). 

I've read through this thread, and it is typically not my style to be blunt,  *content removed*

I see no good reason to ever leave a dog intact unless there are plans to show, or plans to prove the dog in the performance realm.  Outside of that, I do not view sterilization of the animal as mutilation, but that's my personal opinion.  I'd rather risk spay incontinence than pyo, as well as seriously reducing their chances of mammory cancer. 

A dog isn't going to miss what it doesn't know (mating).  And now I make an exit out of this thread, and say best of luck.

*content removed, rude behavior* Some actually understand the topic, and address it, then they are also attacked.
*content removed, baiting behavior*
Some have even made disparaging comments about my vet.
*content removed, name calling*
For those few that have stayed on topic, you have been helpful, and I appreciate your courage,
especially considering that you put yourself in the cross-hairs.  I am hopeful that others will
post on topic.
Thanks.

ORIGINAL: calliecritturs

you essentially take away the way the bladder should be attached and held up in the body ... and if the bladder sags too much it leads to spay incontinence. 

 
Can anyone tell me more about this idea of spay incontinence?  I have never heard of it before, and frankly, it makes no sense to me at all.  I am a biologist, and I can tell you, the bladder is in no way held up/attached to the uterus.  A dog's uterus is shaped like a "V" and lies much closer to the spine than the bladder (which is very near to the belly, and lower on the animal).  Can someone explain how this is supposed to work?
 
Thanks.

Panchodog,

For your information and to finish my story about my dog not being spayed until her nineth year, here is the thread to reference.  Included in the thread is a picture of my dog's tumor laden uterus.  This is serious and I want to SHARE my experiences.  I have no HIDDEN messages here. 

[linkhttp://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=310793&mpage=1&key=drizzle%2Cweight񏢔]http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=310793&mpage=1&key=drizzle%2Cweight񏢔[/link]

Added:  After this experience, the members here had the perfect opportunity to say "I told you so", but none did.  It is a nice group of people here.

ORIGINAL: papillon64

ORIGINAL: calliecritturs

you essentially take away the way the bladder should be attached and held up in the body ... and if the bladder sags too much it leads to spay incontinence. 

Can anyone tell me more about this idea of spay incontinence?  I have never heard of it before, and frankly, it makes no sense to me at all.  I am a biologist, and I can tell you, the bladder is in no way held up/attached to the uterus.  A dog's uterus is shaped like a "V" and lies much closer to the spine than the bladder (which is very near to the belly, and lower on the animal).  Can someone explain how this is supposed to work?

Thanks.

 
Well, I can't explain it to you as I don't really know how it happens but it has something to do with support. Not all spayed dogs get it and it usually develops between, I believe my vet said, 4-7. My dog has spay incontinence. Would I leave my next female dog intact to avoid this? No. My dogs are not show dogs, I have no interest in showing, too much work to me, and my dogs are not going to be used for breeding. My male Shepherd mix was fixed at 9 months, not because I didn't want to fix him until then, but because my vet was too expensive and I was looking for a cheaper one that wouldn't charge me over $200.00 to get him fixed just because of his size. I'm sure you could look up spay incontinence on yahoo or google to see if it tells you what you want to know about it.
 
Shiva

Just curious MRV -- how early were they spayed.  The vet I spoke to specifically meant the early early 2-3 month 1-stich spay by laser. 

Ok, I'll leave my personal feelings out.  I'll just hand you my experience.  I have a male and female, brother and sister from consecutive litters.  Crusher is older than his sister Onyx.  I wanted to wait until Crusher was done growing before I altered him, for my own reasons.  I waited too long and went through 2 of Onyx' heats.  It was awful for him.  He cried, whined, chewed off his nails, sheared the fur on his back legs.  He would go out long enough to lap at her pee, cover it with his own, and then cry at the back door.  The ONLY time he would settle down was if he was crated and she was gone from the house.  Taking her for a walk during this time was just to dangerous for this time so Crusher spent his time in AGONY.  Not to mention that the Rottie across the back yard from us nearly threw himself out of a second story window to get to her while I had her outside ON A LEASH.  He was only saved by his owner grabbing his back legs.
 
Now Onyx is one of those dogs that doesn't even seem to notice she's in heat.  She keeps herself clean but other than that a bit of marking outside is all she does.  If I didn't fear for her "Virtue" from other dogs in the neighborhood, I might keep her intact, but I will spay her.  I don't want puppies out of her, she has her issues.
 
I hope I managed to keep my personal feelings out. 

papillion64 I will PM you -- no need to encourage more flaming nastiness.  This thread has simply disintigrated to the status OF troll behavior.  He simply jumps in now and then to instigate nastiness.

My dog was spayed before she left the litter. She was only 8 weeks old, and it was not my choice. I would have prefered that she be bigger, to undergo anesthesia, but it's shelter policy.

It took her a LONG time to mature, but from what I'm told, that's fairly normal within her breed. She is not, by any means, a "flippy, floppy, mushy hyper" dog. She is very active, obedient, and well settled, as an adult dog.

I know a *lot* of dogs, FWIW. I've worked in the pet care industry for the last three years, and *handle* over 100 dogs every week. That doesn't add up to anything, compared to some of the people on this board (who've been in dogs for longer than I've been alive), but it is definitely something. I agree completely with Callie, on this. It is worth considering their emotional and psycological health before you put your own values on them.

I know this is almost pointless of me to say. But I wanted to say I appreciate everyone that responded to this thread...because pretty much all of you did it with kindness, tact, and a great tone of "keyboard". I applaud you! You are better people then me. This topic incensed me, not by the question asked, but by the rudeness, ignorance, and instigation of the original poster. It's almost laughable, if it wasn't so offensive. All that ot say that this isn't on topic par se, but this has to be the nicest group of people on any forum I've seen. Elsewhere people would have jumped down his throat (for good reason) and he probably would have been banned (for good reason, more then likely). And I say that as a compliment to you guys, you should give yourselves a pat on the back, you have more restraint then I do!

I apologize to the moderators if you have to edit this, I understand. I just had to say my piece, as there would be no point in my posting my opinion on the actual topic, since he won't listen or care anyway. [:'(]

thanks ... your thots were appreciated!

Agreed......on a personal level.  The moderator side has no opinion, but SHE hasn't had enough coffee yet this morning.
 
Aside from DPU taking a bit of heat for sharing his experience, I agree that everyone has behaved admirably in a topic that could be not so fun and cordial.  FWIW and in my OPINION, DPU had a really strange girl....most will gladly stand when they are ready in my experience.