VP debate...who did she think she was winking at?

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"Ah" in that name is a voiceless velar fricative (both Mahmoud and Ahmadinejad).  Think the "ch" in Loch (much softer though) or better yet if you know how to pronounce "Hanukkah" correctly or are much closer.

Arabic of course does not use the Greco/Latin alphabet and so many disagreements occur in the Western world on the "proper" pronunciation of Islamic/Middle Eastern names.  In fact, I rarely hear an Islamic name pronounced correctly.  Dropping the VVF is just as cringeworthy to Arabic ears as attempting to pronounce it unsuccessfully ie, "K".  Most people who say A-ma-dinejad have seen it only in print or heard only Westerners pronounce it, while if you hear a native speaker pronounce it and are paying attention, or know someone who has, you'll catch the little fricative.

Biden used the term Bosniaks which got some laughs from the Fox commentators until one of them looked it up.  It wasn't a mistake.  Bosniaks are Islamic Bosnians.  I used to take herding lessons at a farm and they bought sheep from my instructor.  He was popular because he had the setup to let them do the ritual slaughter right there.  Anyway, the commentators owned their error ("bless their hearts!"  lol).  But it's not good to make quick assumptions.

I think she did fine.  We both got some giggles when she got all fired up over her "city on the hill" speech ("Come on everybody, fight with us!  Sis boom bah!  Ra ra ra!";)  and then we went right to Biden saying in almost a dead monotone, "One of the faults people have with me is my passion."  Saturday Night Live couldn't have set that one up better.  I don't fault him because he was composing himself to try to mention the auto accident incident a couple sentences later - but possibly if he had been thinking he may have saved the "passion" reference for a later time when he actually could look excited.  Not what one would expect of someone who was supposed to be an experienced debater.

These debates are frankly a big joke.  Gov Palin embraced the format as it has become - simply ninety minutes of unpaid advertising or televised stumping.  The fact that it seems to have offended the purists simply indicates that maybe she's a bit ahead of her time.  She did answer the questions, if you go back and look at the transcripts.  A lot of times, the question would be, "Do you think X?" and she'd say, "No.  Let me talk about energy."  If you look at the questions, many of them, if you are a conservative, run along the lines of "How often do you beat your wife?"  To answer them, a conservative either needs twenty minutes, or none.  Sometimes I'd start answering for her, a little frustrated that she hadn't taken the opportunity to say X-Y-Z, and then I'd realize I'd talked over two or three responses plus their questions.  Here, I'll give you an example from the other direction:

"Most Americans think we should increase utilization of domestic oil resources.  How would you as Vice President speed up the current timeline for that process and further increase exploration to expand our resources?"

How would someone who is against continued exploitation answer that question - spending ninety seconds to explain you are totally not on board with that idea would be a waste of time.  You don't know much about the exploration process - why should you?  You're against it on principle.  So you say, "Our platform says X on oil drilling."  Then you segue to another topic and use the 78 seconds you have left to talk to the television viewers, gracefully if you can, or completely gosh-darn honest and open about it if you are Sarah Palin.  Maybe that didn't play so well because people are still trying to deceive themselves that these are real debates.

I'm a pretty smart person (at least, so people tell me) but I can't remember if it's nuCUlar or nuclear either.   I have to look up potato also.

I like her.  She's smart.  Scary smart.  Holy cow, she went from being soccer mom (or hockey mom I guess) to member of the Governer's Club in how long?  I keep hearing how the Governor of AK is no big deal.  OK, tell that to the Govs of the following states, who all have less than 1.25 mil inhabitants (Jul 07

She's not only a Real Live Governor, just like the Govs of Delaware and Vermont, she got stuff done each step of the way of her journey there.  You might not have liked the things she got done, but she got elected and got done what she promised each time without the help of either party - just support from people who were sick of the corruption at the top.  And did it with a young family.  And without the help of the feminist movement, who (come on now, admit it) discount her accomplishments because she's not a correct thinker.

My field is history and poli sci and I can tell when someone is being used, versus someone who's working the polity very well.  She's a good match for McCain though their political views are rather distant.  McCain's scary smart too.  That's not why I like them (I'm not too fond of McCain actually).  But I think they'll hold their own well and I think they'll make a good executive team if McCain follows through on his promise to let Palin sniff around and suggest some reforms. 

Palin was winking at her father in the audience, by the way.  She said that. 

alieliza

Nooo!!! I can't see the flowchart!

Haha, sorry, fixed it!

I expected her to be a train wreck, and I hoped, as a woman, that she could NOT humiliate herself, so on that level I was impressed.  However, she did an awful lot of READING her answers, she was too cute, too folksy, too "common" and joe six pack??  I objected to the Ya instead of you, the gonna instead of going to......I MIGHT use words like that in a super casual setting over a drink or two, but I am not in public office or on the Presidental ticket.  I missed her saying who she was winking at, as did obviously, the OP, and I had visions of her winking at some foreign leader and asking "May I call you Ahmed?"  Oye.  Or telling him that "by golly, gosh darn it, ya gotta do x or we're gonna do y"

I would prefer my President and VP to be a bit more professional and a lot less folksy.  And I agree, she's way too PERKY, and does not represent me as a woman at all.

brookcove

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"Ah" in that name is a voiceless velar fricative (both Mahmoud and Ahmadinejad).  Think the "ch" in Loch (much softer though) or better yet if you know how to pronounce "Hanukkah" correctly or are much closer.

Arabic of course does not use the Greco/Latin alphabet and so many disagreements occur in the Western world on the "proper" pronunciation of Islamic/Middle Eastern names.  In fact, I rarely hear an Islamic name pronounced correctly.  Dropping the VVF is just as cringeworthy to Arabic ears as attempting to pronounce it unsuccessfully ie, "K".  Most people who say A-ma-dinejad have seen it only in print or heard only Westerners pronounce it, while if you hear a native speaker pronounce it and are paying attention, or know someone who has, you'll catch the little fricative.

 

You got to that before I did. Kudos to you from a linguist.

brookcove

I like her.  She's smart.  Scary smart.  Holy cow, she went from being soccer mom (or hockey mom I guess) to member of the Governer's Club in how long? 

I have to disagree. having political instincts and being smart are not the same thing, in my book. She is charming and has an amazing ability to exploit her environment. Politically, she's a natural. But smart? No. And definitely not wise.  There's something scary about her, and it isn't her brains.

brookcove

I like her.  She's smart.  Scary smart.  Holy cow, she went from being soccer mom (or hockey mom I guess) to member of the Governer's Club in how long? 

I hate to say it but you can't discount her physical attractivness and charm as at leat part of the reason for her ascension from hockey mom to governor.   She has other positive attributes as well such as public speaking skills, but I could not say that her intelligence is the major reason for her success.

Chelsea, that flow chart is hysterical ... and quite fantastic.  I think you have a second career there.

Joyce

I have to disagree. having political instincts and being smart are not the same thing, in my book

LOL.  Of course we disagree!  It's okay, too.  Here's my point of view.  I'm smart like, I can learn facts really fast, identify patterns, comprehend and process and apply book knowledge at a high rate.  That tends to be the kind of thing that scores high on Mensa.

According to Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligences model there are different ways to be smart.  Everyone excels in two or three.  Political smarts tend to utilize interpersonal and linguistic intelligence.  Mine are INTRApersonal, linguistic, and spatial.  I'd be a lousy politician.

There are also two main leadership styles.  One tends to be very hands on, micromanaging, everything has to go through the top first.  The staff surrounding such leaders tend to be more administrative.  The top tier is very "smart" while the talents of their support teams lie in the bureaucratic world. 

The second is the delegator.  These leaders like to surround themselves with "smart" people, ie with specialized knowledge, down to very low levels.  The decision-making process involves the movement of information up the chain of command, where the top tier excels at analyzing data and applying it to the creation of policy.

I prefer the second style in a POTUS because the first style tends to lend itself to the multiplication of the bureaucracy just by nature of the beast.  It's an outflow of the leadership style.  Administrative offices actually have to be created consciously in administrations that are strongly along the lines of the second style.

Like it or not, the second style only requires good leadership skills and being a fast assimilator of information if there's a learning curve involved.  I think Palin's shown both so I'm perfectly happy with voting for them. 

I could care less whether or not she is attractive,folksy,or mispronounces the occasional word.We Americans should be selecting or leaders based on how well they represent our own personal views on the issues.This should not become a popularity contest.It is a job interview.Listen more to what these applicants are saying about the direction they want to lead this country and less to the way the annunciate.

Tena

jenns

I personally find the "folksy"  thing irritating and insulting to women.  I cannot related to the "joe six pack, doggone you betcha" reference at all as my husband and I are intelligent, well-educated professionals that speak proper English and  know how to pronounce the word nuclear (unlike the other disaster who's in office right now).  This woman does not represent me whatsoever.

EXACTLY. 

My husband and I both work in a factory and that crap does not appeal to us, so I'm not sure what audience she's going for.  While we were driving to work yesterday DH mentioned that it bugs him that she does not speak more formally and that it is not fitting for the office she is hoping to gain.  He is a machine programmer who has to speak to sales reps for machine and tooling companies, his superiors, and other professionals and would *never* be taken seriously speaking that way.

The sad thing about all this is that at the beginning I really liked McCain.  I was still on the fence but likely to vote for him.  After he added her though--no way.  He also lost my husband's vote (and he leans way more to the right than I do), as well as my mom's who was also on the fence.... 

4HAND

I could care less whether or not she is attractive,folksy,or mispronounces the occasional word.We Americans should be selecting or leaders based on how well they represent our own personal views on the issues.This should not become a popularity contest.It is a job interview.Listen more to what these applicants are saying about the direction they want to lead this country and less to the way the annunciate.

Tena

You are right, it is a job interview.  Do you know what is important in a job interview?  The way you SPEAK.  No, it is not everything, but if you cannot communicate effectively (and if half the people you are interviewing to are driven up the wall by your speaking style, you cannot communicate effectively), then that is a relevant issue.  This woman is going to be representing us on the world stage, and I'd prefer to be represented by someone who knows how to speak and behave professionally.  Like it or not, these things ARE important.

In addition, I got the sneaking feeling that she was "lowering" her speech to talk to "the common man."  As someone who is probably in her target audience (middle class, both DH and I have blue collar jobs, etc) I find that insulting. 

sillysally

The sad thing about all this is that at the beginning I really liked McCain.  I was still on the fence but likely to vote for him.  After he added her though--no way.  He also lost my husband's vote (and he leans way more to the right than I do), as well as my mom's who was also on the fence.... 

Same here.  I was initially a Hillary supporter and when she lost the nomination I considered going to McCain.  After he picked his VP, that sealed the deal fo rme!

sillysally

Do you know what is important in a job interview?  The way you SPEAK. 

Not more important than what you are saying,or your work ethic, or what you represent.I won't ever vote for anyone who seeks to overturn Roe V Wade.I don't want our troops to be in Iraq for eight more years.This is why I don't like the Mcain/Palin ticket.Not anything so trivial as a mispronounciation or speaking style.I know plenty of well educated well spoken people who are sorely lacking in the wisdom department.Don't let polish be the thing you are drawn to,it shows little about the person underneath.

Tena