Spacing 1 Yr Vaccines???

mudpuppy

so what on earth makes you think it was the vaccines?

What on earth would make me think it wasn't the vaccines.  We don't know for sure mudpuppy, that's the whole point of this.  We've ruled out it being secondary to another illness, we don't know her genetic history.  Why would I say, hey, let's continue to vaccinate her since we don't know for sure.  And, risk her life, why?? 

And, no vet or vet tech or anyone ever told me, hey be careful of vaccines because your dog might get sick from them later on.  They just told me NOT to vaccinate her after she already had the problem-- a little ridiculous to wait until then don't you think. 

It's interesting to me though, that I've noticed many people on vets about how they like to sell stuff and yet it's insignificant to people that I was told NOT to vaccinate her further.  You'd think that would make people who think vets are in this for the money take note. 

Everyone needs to do what they are comfortable with. 

mudpuppy

You could not vaccinate your genetically predisposed dog for anything and presuming he's lucky enough to not die from parvo or distemper, when he picks up kennel cough it could trigger the condition. Too bad you didn't vaccinate against kennel cough...

As far as this statement, I'm pretty sure that the vaccination sends the immune system into overdrive and it then stays that way unlike when the body fights something on it's own, the immune system returns to normal once the "threat" is gone. 

Liesje

to me it makes more sense to test my dogs for an autoimmune disease and then vaccinate them if they don't have it, rather than side with the tiniest risk that they could have an autoimmune disease and it may or may not be triggered by a vaccine and leave them susceptible to kennel cough, parvo, etc...

I don't think that it is even possible to test for all autoimmune diseases.  We don't know enough about them yet.

No one is suggesting that dogs should not be adequately vaccinated so they are not susceptible to serious illness.  The AAHA is a very conservative organization and would not change from yearly to 3-year vaccinations if there was any hint of danger from that - especially for rabies.

A dog vaccinated for parvo every three years is just as safe from parvo as a dog vaccinated every year.  The dog that got 3 vaccines just got two extra chances for a vaccine reaction or complication.  In fact, the DOI (duration of immunity) for parvo has been shown to be at least 7 years, so the dog vaccinated yearly gets six extra chances for a vaccine reaction or complication.  Past the 1-yr shots the DOI may even be lifetime, but that has not been proven yet.

The above is also true for rabies, distemper, adenovirus, and hepatitis.

Kennel cough is another story because the DOI is much shorter for bordetella.  However, the bordetella and parainfluenza vaccines together only protect against 3 of the 8+ causes of "kennel cough" (a generic term like the "flu";).

I object to giving dogs vaccines from which they get no benefit.  That objection is both from a health and $$ standpoint.  Any chance at all for vaccine complications from unneeded shots is just too much.

janet_rose

No one is suggesting that dogs should not be adequately vaccinated so they are not susceptible to serious illness.  The AAHA is a very conservative organization and would not change from yearly to 3-year vaccinations if there was any hint of danger from that - especially for rabies.

A dog vaccinated for parvo every three years is just as safe from parvo as a dog vaccinated every year.  The dog that got 3 vaccines just got two extra chances for a vaccine reaction or complication.  In fact, the DOI (duration of immunity) for parvo has been shown to be at least 7 years, so the dog vaccinated yearly gets six extra chances for a vaccine reaction or complication.  Past the 1-yr shots the DOI may even be lifetime, but that has not been proven yet.

I agree with this, but as Callie pointed out, it's just not accepted around here yet.  So, if I refuse, then my dogs are basically secluded to my home or wherever I would walk them, alone.  I cannot travel myself unless I pay someone to stay home with my dogs, and if something ever happened to me my family would not be able to board my dogs temporarily.  They can't be in the clubs, dog parks, day care, boarding, therapy group, etc.  I absolutely agree with a 3 year protocol, but with all the things we already do, it's just one battle I don't have time to take on.  I can insist on how my own dogs are treated, but as far as going around to every club and dog facility, convincing them they are wrong (even when they are)....it's just not possible.  And, I think if the dogs could speak, they would rather me use my time and energy for them than take on this crusade.  Assuming they don't have any autoimmune problems, vaccinating sooner rather than later won't help them, but it's not causing any problems either.  It costs me more money, but that's just the price to pay in order to be included in all the events and groups that they like.

That's what I have to balance.  Keeping the dogs immune AND keeping our options open. 

If there is a reputable study that can give a frequency of common vaccines causing serious reactions (things that need to be treated, not just a little rash or feeling down for a day or so), I can pass it out but beyond giving it to them, I just don't have time to convince everyone to immediately change.  I know the Humane Society accepts titres so maybe other places will start to catch on....

Liesje

I agree with this, but as Callie pointed out, it's just not accepted around here yet.  So, if I refuse, then my dogs are basically secluded to my home or wherever I would walk them, alone.  I cannot travel myself unless I pay someone to stay home with my dogs, and if something ever happened to me my family would not be able to board my dogs temporarily.  They can't be in the clubs, dog parks, day care, boarding, therapy group, etc.  I absolutely agree with a 3 year protocol, but with all the things we already do, it's just one battle I don't have time to take on.  I can insist on how my own dogs are treated, but as far as going around to every club and dog facility, convincing them they are wrong (even when they are)....it's just not possible.  And, I think if the dogs could speak, they would rather me use my time and energy for them than take on this crusade.  Assuming they don't have any autoimmune problems, vaccinating sooner rather than later won't help them, but it's not causing any problems either.  It costs me more money, but that's just the price to pay in order to be included in all the events and groups that they like.

  I have found ways around vaccine requirements. If you are an established club member, chances are fair that if you never sent in any more vax records no one would pressure you. There is also always the option of "self vaccinating" for everything but rabies ;) I wouldn't vaccinate just to be able to take my dogs some place, I'd find a way around it.

 I now have two dogs with an autoimmune issue and it is one GSDs are prone to developing - Pannus. One was CERF'd multiple times with no sign of a problem, so everyone is right when they say there really are no "warning signs". Of course not all dogs develop autoimmune issues. Some dogs are fine and live long healthy lives despite being vaccinated for everything under the sun every year and fed Ol' Roy. But if you can tip the odds in your pet's favor, why not do so? Health problems are extremely common in the average pet owners animals. I am constantly seeing dogs ith cancer, immune issues, skin problems and disease at the grooming shop. I don't blame it all on vaccines but I also don't feel that overvaccination is harmless. Even the major vet colleges feel that overvaccinating may be causing problems, which brought on the research which eventually changed the protocol.

 Emma hasn't been vaccinated for anything but rabies since she was a puppy. She has serious vaccine reactions that are not treated by her vet, because I have valium and benedryll here. Being at the vet would just stress her out worse, and I can make her bland, drugged food just as easily as they can serve her drugged I/D. She is far from secluded. She comes to work with me, every day. She goes to dog shows. She goes to training classes. She isn't a therapy dog, because of temperament issues.

The puppy is fully vaccinated, and carries a visible lump in her shoulder from her rabies shot. Her skin hasn't been right, since she had it. Her parents and siblings have no history of vaccine reactions. 

I'm very, very nervous at the idea of ever vaccinating either of them, again, but I also fear them not being safe. There's also the whole law thing with the rabies shot.... Ena will be due in a year and Emma in two. 

this is an interesting discussion.. for sure.

 Let's talk about how viable an option "checking titers" really is.  I don't know, I'm asking.  I have NEVER, EVER had a vet offer to do this, and I suspect that it's very, very expensive.

As far as "self-vaccinating", the information I have says that vaccines provided by anyone other than a veterinarian may not have been stored properly and therefore may have lost all effectiveness, thereby making them nothing more than a sterile water injection, really.  I do question the veracity of this because the information MAY or may not be an effort by drug companies to push their products through vets exclusively- I would bet it was based on $$$, as is everything, really...

badrap

 Let's talk about how viable an option "checking titers" really is.  I don't know, I'm asking.  I have NEVER, EVER had a vet offer to do this, and I suspect that it's very, very expensive.

Vets don't "offer" -- you ASK.  And as to expense?  It completely depends on the vet/practice (and often what you insist on).  It *can* also depend on WHERE the titers come from.

I usually ask that they send them to Cornell because the titer report they send back is far more comprehensive -- it gives more specific values, rather than just a greater than (>;) or less than (<;) value.  Titers are usually written as a ratio anyway.

The Cornell titers ARE more expensive than just sending them to Antech or one of the mainstream labs.  I *think* I'm paying about $90 for the Cornell titers (last I scrutinized the bill).  The regular titers have been around $50 or so. 

I've heard of some vets charging exhorbitant fees for titers which is just plain robbery -- I think *they* think they can discourage people by cost, and if that was the case, I'd be looking for a new vet.

but a vet doesn't 'offer' -- YOU ask for it.

badrap

As far as "self-vaccinating", the information I have says that vaccines provided by anyone other than a veterinarian may not have been stored properly and therefore may have lost all effectiveness, thereby making them nothing more than a sterile water injection, really.  I do question the veracity of this because the information MAY or may not be an effort by drug companies to push their products through vets exclusively- I would bet it was based on $$$, as is everything, really...

Again, that sounds like bad-vet-prattle.  You can buy vaccines from a host of places (or your vet may order them for you) if you have a lot of dogs and it's the only way you can do it.  The only way that's reasonable or viable is if you are, for some reason, vaccinating a large group of animals - *because* you DO have to buy a minimum order usually. 

calliecritturs

The Cornell titers ARE more expensive than just sending them to Antech or one of the mainstream labs.  I *think* I'm paying about $90 for the Cornell titers (last I scrutinized the bill).  The regular titers have been around $50 or so. 

I paid about $35 for Pirate's titers, last year. They were already drawing the blood though, so it might have been less.

AgileGSD

 I now have two dogs with an autoimmune issue and it is one GSDs are prone to developing - Pannus. 

Kenya had a pannus scare when I first got her.  I found spots on her eyes.  However, she got CERFed and both the specialist and one of the vets I see said they were just a tiny dot of scar tissue from an old infection.  I was skeptical so I watched her eyes for a long time, but so far nothing has become of it...

Anyway, my question is more about causation.  Do vaccines really CAUSE autoimmune diseases in dogs? 

"cause" isn't really the right word, and if a true "cause" were known they'd have it licked.

"trigger" is a better word -- in an immune-mediated or "auto-immune" disease (that's almost a misnomer -- 'auto-immune' is meaningless to many vet opinions so you see 'immune-mediated' most of the time now) something in the body triggers the body's own immune sytem to wage war on it's own body. 

The immune system should go 'on' and 'off'.  On when confronted with a disease or something it needs to protect against and 'off' when the threat is over.  And the body actually 'records' when it forms anti-bodies against something in each cells' memory. 

But then something causes the immune system to just plain not shut 'off' -- AND not just to stay in heightened awareness but also to simply perceive a threat when none is truly there.

Billy's body actually formed antibodies to a sick tick.  We *know* he was exposed.  We *know* his body actually formed antibodies as it should have to defeat the tick-borne illness.

BUT then the immune system didn't stop -- it then **generalized** and decided not JUST the red blood cells with disease were bad, and then red blood cells with antibodies were bad ... it just plain started killing ALL red blood cells -- not just in the blood in the veins/arteries but all the way back in the bone marrow where reticulocytes are formed (baby red blood cells). 

THAT is just IMHA -- for some reason the body starts a war on something .. and then declares war not just on disease cells but on ALL cells of those types and THEN it can generalize further and **other** auto-immune or immune-mediated problems begin.

If you remember Outdoorschik's "Snickers" -- Snickers had IMHA and the steroids got the body to stop attacking the red blood cells but THEN altho it kept holding off on the rbc attack it started attacking platelets TOO.  And that was ultimately what happened with Snickers -- not one but two immune-mediated reactions and somewhere she bled internally (and they don't know from what or where).

No one knows the 'cause'.  Why the immune sytem generalizes or mis-fires like that.  Not yet.  But 'triggers'?  That's where vaccines come in -- because they are so strongly involved in that immune system on/off thing and producing antibodies that the body is supposed to recognize as 'ok' -- this is why dogs who have had ANY sort of auto-immune problem are NEVER supposed to be vaccinated ever ever again -- because any vax can trigger more reaction. 

Other things can trigger it too but they aren't as easy to identify  ... (like ProHeart 6 -- a chemical -- they know it was involved but not exactly how). 

Does that make sense??  It's a Callie-explanation but it's as good as I've been able to assimilate.

badrap

Let's talk about how viable an option "checking titers" really is.  I don't know, I'm asking.  I have NEVER, EVER had a vet offer to do this, and I suspect that it's very, very expensive.

That sucks. My vet brought it up before I could even ask. She said "Are we vaccinating Cherokee today?" And I said "Just rabies, I don't want to do anything else right now." she said "Okay, do you want to do titers?" That was my first time seeing her too...I hadn't ever mentioned titers. She's just a normal vet, albeit on the younger side (graduated in '99, so she's approximately..35?)..but I mean, not holistic or anything.

As for cost, it was $46 for both the parvo & distemper titers. More expensive than the vaccines, sure, but not what I'd call "very, very expensive".

Cherokee's titers were, in my vet's words, "the highest the lab can measure", so since she hasn't been vaccinated in at least 5 years..possibly 7-8 (I can't find a definite answer there in my records), I'm thinking it won't change much in a year, so I'm not planning on titering again this year. Maybe next year...maybe not. Titers aren't a DEFINITE measure of whether they're immune or not, just a kind of general idea... So since I can't see myself vaccinating even if the titers come back low, it seems a little pointless. But that's just me, and my dog who doesn't meet new dogs, uhm, ever.

As far as this statement, I'm pretty sure that the vaccination sends the immune system into overdrive and it then stays that way unlike when the body fights something on it's own, the immune system returns to normal once the "threat" is gone. 

not true. Vaccines aren't magic they are just antigens just like any other virus. The system returns to normal even faster than if you'd, say, come down with flu. Go get yourself a tetanus shot- you'll be sore and achy for two days then back to normal.

If your dog doesn't come down with whatever within thirty days of a vaccination it's pretty hard to believe whatever has anything to do with the vaccination.

If there is a reputable study that can give a frequency of common vaccines causing serious reactions (things that need to be treated, not just a little rash or feeling down for a day or so), I can pass it out but beyond giving it to them,

no study has ever definitely linked dog vaccination to any kind of serious illness other than the very rare almost immediate allergic reactions. It's all hype and rumor and dog owners looking for a reason why their dog is sick - why blame the breeder or dumb luck when you can blame the vaccine. Vaccines are very safe. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16220670?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

mudpuppy

As far as this statement, I'm pretty sure that the vaccination sends the immune system into overdrive and it then stays that way unlike when the body fights something on it's own, the immune system returns to normal once the "threat" is gone. 

not true. Vaccines aren't magic they are just antigens just like any other virus. The system returns to normal even faster than if you'd, say, come down with flu. Go get yourself a tetanus shot- you'll be sore and achy for two days then back to normal.

If your dog doesn't come down with whatever within thirty days of a vaccination it's pretty hard to believe whatever has anything to do with the vaccination.

Ok - this is the problem with taking things out of context in  a 'quote'.  That was NOT in any way meant to be a complete condemnation of all vaccines NOT at all.  But that's how it's been explained to me by vets (and doctors) as how a vaccine (or vaccine history) can potentially bring about some totally unrelated illness.  We are NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT (GET ME???) talking about Vaccine A bringing about some immune-mediated problem identical to Disease A.  NO. 

And Mudpuppy?  NO -- I'm not gonna go get a tetanus shot -- I have **two** autoimmune diseases (rheumatoid arthritis **and** psoriasis) -- I don't get vaccines either! ok?  Yeah, it's something I'm interested in and I've had both regular and holistic doctors tell ME **not** to get vaccines.

mudpuppy

no study has ever definitely linked dog vaccination to any kind of serious illness other than the very rare almost immediate allergic reactions. It's all hype and rumor and dog owners looking for a reason why their dog is sick - why blame the breeder or dumb luck when you can blame the vaccine.

You know what, I just deleted my post--I won't waste my time on this topic anymore.  With my dog so sick, it's disgusting that this type of comment could be posted especially after the numerous lengthy explanations above.