Obama said what?

Liesje

I'm still confused why anyone would refer to him by his middle name for ANY reason other than to draw attention to the fact that it's a "Muslim" name.

 I do it because it irritates liberals

sillysally

On this board my experience has been that people tend to be negative towards Christians, because, you know, we think every one else is going to hell, we use our religion as a crutch, we all are right wingers, we all hate gay people

I kind of picked up on that, too.

But, don't forget, we cling to our bibles and guns.....and that came straight out of Obama's mouth....so, who is the bigot now? This statement was made in Pennsylvania, but it might as well be directed at everybody who owns a bible and a gun.

sillysally

If it's not about his race than it is not racist.  It could be discrimination, bigoted, etc, but not racist.  If you (collective) are going to criticize people for using his name than fine, I think we should just be clear of what we are accusing people of, that's all.  Calling ti something it's not just further clouds the issue.....  

Then that depends on whether one defines race exclusively based on color, or ethnicity.  Honestly I guess I never knew until now that some defined race/racism exclusively based on skin color.

From Wikipedia

Racial discrimination typically points out taxonomic differences between different groups of people, even though anybody can be racialised, independently of their somatic differences. According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination.

[........]

According to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, religion,descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. '^[1]

This definition does not make any difference between prosecutions based on ethnicity and race, in part because the distinction between the two remains debatable among anthropologists.^[2] According to British law, racial group means "any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin".^[3]

dgriego

Liesje

I'm still confused why anyone would refer to him by his middle name for ANY reason other than to draw attention to the fact that it's a "Muslim" name.

 

 I do it because it irritates liberals

At least you are honest.  But would you call a white German an Aryan Nazi to annoy someone? Or a black person a n*** just to push peoples' buttons?  Or is it just OK when it's Islam/a Muslim name?

Liesje

sillysally

If it's not about his race than it is not racist.  It could be discrimination, bigoted, etc, but not racist.  If you (collective) are going to criticize people for using his name than fine, I think we should just be clear of what we are accusing people of, that's all.  Calling ti something it's not just further clouds the issue.....  

 

Then that depends on whether one defines race exclusively based on color, or ethnicity.  Honestly I guess I never knew until now that some defined race/racism exclusively based on skin color.

From Wikipedia

Racial discrimination typically points out taxonomic differences between different groups of people, even though anybody can be racialised, independently of their somatic differences. According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination.

[........]

According to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, religion,descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. '^[1]

This definition does not make any difference between prosecutions based on ethnicity and race, in part because the distinction between the two remains debatable among anthropologists.^[2] According to British law, racial group means "any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin".^[3]

 

 

I really wasn't trying to be a jerk about it, I guess I'm just picky today.... 

Liesje

dgriego

Liesje

I'm still confused why anyone would refer to him by his middle name for ANY reason other than to draw attention to the fact that it's a "Muslim" name.

 

 I do it because it irritates liberals

 

At least you are honest.  But would you call a white German an Aryan Nazi to annoy someone? Or a black person a n*** just to push peoples' buttons?  Or is it just OK when it's Islam/a Muslim name?

IDK, if McCain's middle name were Adolf do you really think that certain people would be able to contain themselves? 

sillysally

IDK, if McCain's middle name were Adolf do you really think that certain people would be able to contain themselves? 

No, but that somehow makes it OK!??!?!?! 

IrishSetterGrl

I also said *in MY opinion* - people support Obama because of his celebrity image. And of course there are people that support Obama for legit reasons, but all of the people I've asked who voted for Obama over Clinton couldn't name ONE difference between the two candidates! One answer I got was "Obama makes better speeches". And the people I've spoken to cannot give good, legit reasons why they support him. They just do because everyone else does so and he is just "oh so perfect".  I didn't "get" the idea of Obama being treated like a celeb from anyone  - it's my opinion that has taken shape because of what I have observed over the past several months. And, you're wong about another thing. I didn't make those statements (cult-like, Messiah, etc.) to "dismiss his obvious popularity as something negative". IF I could ask his a ton of his supporters why they liked him and heard informed, intelligent responses, then I'd say, heck they like him because of what he plans to do...GREAT. But the vast majority of Obama supporters (like 99.9% IMO) have fallen prey to the outrageous glorification of this individual.

Not to belabor a point, (well, maybe just a little ) a statement that 99.9% of Obama supporters have fallen prey to his outrageous glorification is NOT just an opinion. I think we need a primer on opinions, which are by definition subjective - "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty", according to the dictionary. So if a sweeping generalization can be either factually proven or disproven it's either a correct or incorrect statement, regardless of how you feel about it. Since either 99.9% of Obama's supporters do or do not have legitimate reasons why they are voting for him, do or do not worship him as some sort of messiah, saying that they do can't be "just an opinion", because it either has a basis in fact or it doesn't. 

Now if you were to say that 99.9% of the people you've spoken to about Obama don't seem have a good reason why they support him and appear to have fallen prey to his outrageous glorification, THAT would be an opinion, and a perfectly valid one, because it's based on your own personal, subjective, experience. But since you've only spoken to a tiny fraction of Obama supporters your original statements would be as valid as me saying that it's my opinion that the sun rises in the West and sets in the East. Hey, it's my opinion, and I've got a right to my opinion, don't I?

It makes me crazy when people use the "right to my opinion" argument to defend factually incorrect ideas. If it can't be supported by facts, it's not an opinion, it's just WRONG! "I think Obama is a Muslim" is not an opinion, because he's not a Muslim, he's a Christian. "Obama would make a terrible president" IS an opinion. "J. Sidney McCain (sorry, can't help it!) is too old to be President" is an opinion. Both are equally valid because they are neither right nor wrong.

BTW, I didn't say YOU got the idea of Obama being treated like a celebrity from anyone or are using those kinds of statements to dismiss his popularity, but they are right-wing talking points, just the same.

Liesje

No, but that somehow makes it OK!??!?!?! 

Of course. Two wrongs make a right, don't ya know.

Liesje

sillysally

IDK, if McCain's middle name were Adolf do you really think that certain people would be able to contain themselves? 

 

No, but that somehow makes it OK!??!?!?! 

Of course not.  I never said it was OK.  Actually, I think I said I didn't agree with it--a couple of times.  However, respect works both ways if the shoe were on the other foot I have no doubt that *some* of those crying foul in regards to Obama's name usage would have no trouble making Nazi remarks about McCain...... 

snownose

who was the guy hitting the main breaker?

Ha!  It wasn't a guy...it was the honorable Ms. Nancy Pelosi....my opinion is that by doing this they (the Dems) looked insanely foolish.  The Repubs stayed for hours discussing the issue of gas prices while the Dems went off on their 5-week vacations.  5 week vacations???  We pay these people with our tax money?  Man, I would luuuuve a 5-week vacation!

Cassidys Mom

IrishSetterGrl

I also said *in MY opinion* - people support Obama because of his celebrity image. And of course there are people that support Obama for legit reasons, but all of the people I've asked who voted for Obama over Clinton couldn't name ONE difference between the two candidates! One answer I got was "Obama makes better speeches". And the people I've spoken to cannot give good, legit reasons why they support him. They just do because everyone else does so and he is just "oh so perfect".  I didn't "get" the idea of Obama being treated like a celeb from anyone  - it's my opinion that has taken shape because of what I have observed over the past several months. And, you're wong about another thing. I didn't make those statements (cult-like, Messiah, etc.) to "dismiss his obvious popularity as something negative". IF I could ask his a ton of his supporters why they liked him and heard informed, intelligent responses, then I'd say, heck they like him because of what he plans to do...GREAT. But the vast majority of Obama supporters (like 99.9% IMO) have fallen prey to the outrageous glorification of this individual.

If it can't be supported by facts, it's not an opinion, it's just WRONG!

 

Well, actually, in your *opinion* it's wrong. 

sillysally

Of course not.  I never said it was OK.  Actually, I think I said I didn't agree with it--a couple of times.  However, respect works both ways if the shoe were on the other foot I have no doubt that *some* of those crying foul in regards to Obama's name usage would have no trouble making Nazi remarks about McCain...... 

They don't have to.  They think by comparing him to Bush is punishing him.  Wow, I wish people would actually see how many times McCain has disagreed with Bush.

I can't wait til these two actually get to debate one on one.  I hate the media coverage of campaign appearances and hateful advertisements.  Get them together in a room to have to answer questions unscripted...that's what I'm looking forward to.  Or maybe not...neither seem to do well with responding off-the-cuff....the lesser of two evils, I guess.

ETA  & OT - Sally, your pic of Heath Ledger is totally freaking me out!  I need to see this movie....

I just have to ask what's wrong with being a liberal?  People use the word like it's the newest four letter word :-/

I'm a liberal...so what?  I don't jump all over conservatives for being conservative, I just happen to disagree with them.

I do it because it irritates liberals

How incredibly mature 
 

Xeph

I just have to ask what's wrong with being a liberal?  People use the word like it's the newest four letter word :-/

There's nothing wrong with it, if liberal is how you define yourself that coincides with your core beliefs.  It's just that conservatives have some different core beliefs than liberals on how this country should be.  I don't think it should be considered the new 4-letter word.  After all, having different viewpoints brings us interesting and excitings discussions like on this thread.  Heck, I used to BE a liberal, and everyone in my family is liberal.  I still love them, and they are still great people.  I just have different political views.  No biggie...carry on with the lively debate (as long as we can all be respectful, of course).

Here is one of my all-time favorite quotes, from Winston Churchill: “If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”  Pretty much sums me up, except I won't be 40 for 9 more years....