should we take away the toys?

the_gopher

Right or wrong I ignore her for a bit - and then call her over to me, which she comes to me and I give her some attention and maybe we play with her toys.  

RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT imo - that's GOOD.  That is what I would do.  You do have to reappply the Bitter Apple.  You also have to keep redirecting and encouraging the right behaviour or she will learn to tolerate or even like the taste of the bitter apple.

2shelties

I just have to ask this, and then I'll leave this thread alone, but how is holding her by the collar until she is calm any different than holding her on her side or putting a hand around her muzzle?

It's different because it's not stopping the dog from moing COMPLETELY - just from going OTT and biting.  And it's also different because it's not holding the dog DOWN - in a vulnerable position.  That is a HUGE distinction in my book.  It is also different because it sounds like Sharon is comfortable with it whereas she wasnt with pinning the dog down.  Another huge distinction!   

Chuffy

It's different because it's not stopping the dog from moing COMPLETELY - just from going OTT and biting.  And it's also different because it's not holding the dog DOWN - in a vulnerable position.  That is a HUGE distinction in my book.  It is also different because it sounds like Sharon is comfortable with it whereas she wasnt with pinning the dog down.  Another huge distinction!   

Yes holding her by her collar and another hand on her body (not really restricting movement per say really) is helping a LOT.  I do this each and every time now and believe me last night I must have done it 100 times - but each time she relaxed sooner and sooner.  This morning I risked tethering her to me because she was off the wall and I had things that needed to get done around the house (dishes, laundry etc).  She most definitively DID NOT like having to go where *I* pleased but I said tough luck, your not in charge here.  She was remarkably calm after I let her go once my laundry was done and dishes (I probably had her tethered to me for almost an hour).  I realize she is given a lot of room around here which has probably caused some of the issue - so from now on she will be randomly tethered to me on occasion.  

I started doing "touch" with the clicker and she picked up pretty fast (but hey her favorite treat at the moment was involved!) - haven't introduced the verbal command yet, maybe tomorrow if she continues to get what it is I want her to do.  So much fun to watch her think - she looks soooo serious and focused.  I LOVE it.

We also had a puppy play date today.  A husky pup roughly the same age (I think 1 week older), and two older and bigger dogs.  At first Ari had no idea what to do, but the husky pup showed her how to play and they had a GREAT time together.  I wish the husky pup lived closer to us, as they really enjoyed playing with each other.  The two older dogs (a 13 year old shepard and an 8ish year old huge lab mix) were good for her too.  The shepard was VERY low key but Ari got annoying to him and he corrected her (first tighteining his muscles which she ignored and then with a low growl) and she INSTANTLY shaped up and respected his boundaries for the rest of the time they were here, in fact I dare say she was eager to please the shepard (Buddy).

Boy did the playing with the Husky pup tucker her out!!!  They had a blast chasing, tackling, and rough housing with each other.  At the end they were both exhausted, laying down face to face with each other and making half efforted attempts at playing "bitey face".  Then they got back up for another romp! 

Today has been a really good day - the Husky pup (Kota) tuckered Ari out and she's much more agreeable when tired!  I wish we could tucker her out as much but lately toys have not been interesting her much.  She's also grown since we got her, I had to loosen her collar a notch and it may be time already to push the crate divider back some!  She gained almost 4 lbs since her last vet visit 2 weeks ago, but she's still healthy-skinny :)

I am VERY glad to hear that things are looking up!  Try to arrange as many playdates as possible, since it's such a good way of wearing her out...and another date or two with that shepherd might not go amiss either.  

Fingers crossed that things keep going in the right direction. 

the_gopher

I realize she is given a lot of room around here which has probably caused some of the issue - so from now on she will be randomly tethered to me on occasion.  

It sounds like the tethering could help a lot.  In my experience a lot of puppies just can't handle too much freedom... they seem to NEED boundaries... not just rules but actual physical boundaries.  It's like they get over stimulated, you know?

the_gopher

So much fun to watch her think - she looks soooo serious and focused.  I LOVE it.

It's great to watch itsn't it

the_gopher

The shepard was VERY low key but Ari got annoying to him and he corrected her (first tighteining his muscles which she ignored and then with a low growl) and she INSTANTLY shaped up and respected his boundaries for the rest of the time they were here, in fact I dare say she was eager to please the shepard (Buddy).

Just curious - did you try this?  The tightening the muscles, the hard sideways stare, the low growl... (followed up by a short harsh "ahh" growl, and a short but sudden movement towards her).  How did it go?

the_gopher

Today has been a really good day - the Husky pup (Kota) tuckered Ari out and she's much more agreeable when tired!  I wish we could tucker her out as much but lately toys have not been interesting her much. 

Could you arrange play dates even once or twice a week?  It doesn't have to be daily, you might see the effects for a few days aftereach time.  Crating or tethering every day to MAKE her take it down a notch is such a good idea because puppies need rest as much as they need free play.... no baby can develop properly without frequent, plentiful, quality rest and sleep.

hey, they sell these things called "collar tabs" which are basically really short leashes- I leave one hanging off a pup's collar most of the time- easy to grab, much more acceptable to most pups than grabbing the collar and much safer than leaving a leash on for grabbing.

I'm still not sure what sort of exercise program this pup is on. Pups need lots of exercise. Most puppy problems are caused by inappropriate/inadequate exercise programs.

The short leash (4-6" long) helped us a lot too when the need to get control was present...and at that age...it was a lot with Heidi.  I cut off a big chunk of an old leash, worked like a charm and recycled too. 

A good puppy is a TIRED puppy.  More playdates with dogs will help just like you've seen so far.  We are lucky in that our neighbor across the road has 1 border collie and two shelties that Heidi has grown up with.  With her 3, + any fosters she may have as well as my two...its a private dog park.  So, so very good for socialization and wearing her out.  I really hope you can do that more often.

Also its always interesting and important to see how she reacts with the dogs at play date...just like you observed...the older dog's communication; and Ari's play with the Husky.  You can learn a lot about how to interact with her.

It will get better, I promise...its tough right now as she is a tough girl...just like my Heidi WAS.  I had bruises, scrapes and many a frustrating day and night with her.  But, she is a year and a half now and has grown out of that puppy stage.  The first extremely difficult pup I've ever had...but we made it and you will to.

 mudpuppy right now b/c we are not supposed to be walking her, we throw toys to tucker her out by running after them and bringing them back (what the breeder told us was a good game)  If I can meet up with more pups (like I said I no no one in the area, or those I do do not have dogs) more play dates will be set - but until she is fully vaccinated I can't take her to puppy socials (was originally going to then found out no one will let her in without being fully vaccinated - which will be in three weeks )  I do clicker training with her now to help her focus and maybe tire her out mentally.  I do short bursts of clicker training - since well puppies dont' have much of an attention span.  MY SO is not keen on swimming her yet until fully vaccinated, b/c Lepto is in our area and he's worried about what she'll pick up by drinking the water (which she will).  If swimming is a good idea - then I'll research it to make my case to my SO to change his mind.  Besides I like winning debates with him - doesn't happen often (all in good fun!)

Believe me WE ARE TRYING TO EXCERCISE HER.  But what do you do when your puppy does not want to play fetch and that is what you are limited to?  I got a high energy breed not out of "ooooh they are cute I want one" b/c we swim, hike, kayak, snowshoe, walk regularly (actually I'm the walker, too boring for the SO lol he does run though and is counting down till he can start running with her - not for a long while yet though) and my SO skies (I'm learning).  I do not want to over excercise a developing large breed puppy - I've been warned about that and I wish we could do more in the house (like hide and seek) but she is still pretty unsteady going down the stairs - she's good now about going up and hopefully will get steadier on the going down part) but because of the stairs we are limited to games right now on the first floor.  I would hide treats for her around the downstairs but she still chews everything (though I am noticing she is picking up the RIGHT items more, probably because we praise her quietly for it any time we catch her chosing the right thing).  

So Mudpuppy b/c I get the sense from you that we are not doing enough let me know what excercise program she should be on and I will gladly take any suggestions.  I am honestly trying to do what's right for her and I'm counting down till I can start bringing her on long walks with me, swimming with me but from my discussions with the breeder, walking is supposed to be out (and from literature I've read as well) and swimming I would have to make a strong argument with the SO on (he's over protective of keeping her healthy till she is fully vaccinated - it took a bad situation with me always getting bit and then her starting to bite him to finally say Your right she needs to be around more dogs).  

I KNOW she needs excercise; I got her breed b/c I wanted high energy (and that sometmies frustrating lol "everything is a game" outlook on life)- I may be frustrated at times, but that frustration lays with myself.  My SO will tell you I beat myself up daily b/c I want to know where I am failing her, what more I can be doing for her to keep her happy and tuckered out.   Aside from leaving my job, I will rearrange my life for Ari and do what needs to be done to keep her happy, healthy and from feeling any sense of frustration from lack of something she needs in her life. 

the_gopher

 mudpuppy right now b/c we are not supposed to be walking her, we throw toys to tucker her out by running after them and bringing them back (what the breeder told us was a good game) 

I am pretty sure I addressed this already earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat in case you missed it - this isn't a BAD game, but it's nowhere near enough.  She cuold do it in her sleep.  She needs MORE than this.  If youreally don't want to WALK her yet, then she needs more trips out, more car rides, more play dates, more brain games... More more more

Re. hide n seek, just gate the stairs.  If you are worried about her finding and chewing the wrong items, start by using a food stuffed kong at mealtime when she is quite hungry... She should be able to see it initially and tehn she should SEE you "hide" it and THEN you can remove her out of sight while you hide it somewhere "easy".  PLEASE play this game.  She will LOVE it.

CoBuHe

The short leash (4-6" long) helped us a lot too when the need to get control was present...and at that age...it was a lot with Heidi.  I cut off a big chunk of an old leash, worked like a charm and recycled too. 

A good puppy is a TIRED puppy.  More playdates with dogs will help just like you've seen so far.  We are lucky in that our neighbor across the road has 1 border collie and two shelties that Heidi has grown up with.  With her 3, + any fosters she may have as well as my two...its a private dog park.  So, so very good for socialization and wearing her out.  I really hope you can do that more often.

Also its always interesting and important to see how she reacts with the dogs at play date...just like you observed...the older dog's communication; and Ari's play with the Husky.  You can learn a lot about how to interact with her.

It will get better, I promise...its tough right now as she is a tough girl...just like my Heidi WAS.  I had bruises, scrapes and many a frustrating day and night with her.  But, she is a year and a half now and has grown out of that puppy stage.  The first extremely difficult pup I've ever had...but we made it and you will to.

 

I am finding random tethering her to me is helping and I will be picking up a shorter leash for "easy access".   I learned A LOT yesterday with her interaction with the dogs.  Now if only I could mimic, successfully, the shepards attitude, demeanor and responses to Ari that would be fabulous - but my doggy impersonations leave much to be desired :)  I should note that the shepard actually is VERY tolerant of crazy puppies, he allowed a lot of tail pulling, fur biting, ankle biting but Ari pushed him with going after his muzzle and ears and after the shepard told her where her place was she was eager to please him.  I know I have to figure out a way for her to see me as leader here - and I'm working on that. 

Last night dinner was fed by hand and clicker.  One small handful of food for performing what I wanted her to do.  That went smashingly well as she was quite hungry.  We ended the session when I saw she almost ready to just wander off - with a sit (something she knows the best) and a handful of tasty treats instead of kibble which made her happy!  We then tossed around a toy for a bit, but she was pretty pooped out - she also had her second to last series of shots yesterday afternoon after the puppy play session which was probably zonking her out as well.  

Random meals will be fed by hand from now on.  As well as being randomly tethered to me.  I will also try to find more physical activities she can safely do at her age.  

I wish I knew more doggy people.  I am a socially shy person, don't make friends easily but there has to be a way to hook up with other dog folks.  There are dogs here, but the ones I have seen would not be a good match for her (mostly small breeds, most of those older - she'd play too rough with them and I don't think it would be a positive experience all around).  

 Chuffy I might have missed it - I tend to skim threads with the intention of going back and fully reading.  We were told adamently not to walk her by her breeder.  If I could bring her out for my walk that I usually do daily it's about a mile through some woods that are out back on a path looping back up to our unit - then I'd be doing this at least twice daily.  But I have been told by the breeder, the vet, literature we researched that dedicated walks are not a good idea. 

I'd love to play hide and seek with her - what is your opinion on a 13- week old and stairs - when said puppy is not too good at going down (we're working on this, she's nervous because she is unsteady *I should note Ari is utterly ungraceful lol much like myself*).  The layout of our condo unit is like this (the best I can describe).

First floor - open from kitchen, dining area and living room (all open - when we play fetch I can throw to the kitchen from the living room - well when I get in a good throw that is heh).  

Second floor - short/small hallway on either end is a bedroom and in the middle a bathroom (masterbedroom has it's on bath) I could hide myself in any of these areas for her to find me).  

Third floor - my SO computer area, our bookcase, his turntables - small room currently completely off limits to the puppy due to not figuring out how to contain all the wires and block off the first two shelves of the bookcase - small area anyway not much wiggle room for a person and a dog.

I will try hiding the Kong on the first floor.  Knowing her she'll probably catch on quick, and there's not many places to hide stuff on the first floor (minimal furniture, open floor plan, and tucked away corners contain wires).  Maybe if we get her good and hungry I can risk eventually hiding a kong under a pillow!.  She's highly food motivated - so I imagine she'd walk through fire if she was actually very hungry.   

We do clicker training like I said throughout the day when we are here.  Or rather I do clicker training with her.  I keep them short though, and I know now just about how long she can focus on a clicker training session.  She loves the clicker when she sees me get it out.  She also loves having her teeth brused (aka her trying to eat the toothbrush) so I am going to make her "work" for that as well since to her having her teeth brushed is great fun.  

She's got "touch" almost down.  Soon I'll be adding the verbal cue for it.  And then trying to get her to touch it from distances she'll have to move more than just her head.  Right now we are using a flashlight as her target - it was the handiest thing I found. 

the_gopher

 Chuffy I might have missed it - I tend to skim threads with the intention of going back and fully reading.  We were told adamently not to walk her by her breeder.

Sorry - didn't her breeder also tell you to deal with the biting by pinning her?

No I would not be giving her mile long walks or allowing her to negitiate the stairs just yet.  But what's wrong with a couple of 5 minute walks on lead, working on some loose lead wlaking with that clicker interspersed with opportunities to sniff?  She can't go straight into mile long walks anyay - she will need to work up to taht gradually.  How close is she to being "safe" to be walked now after her vaccines?

 Yeah she's still a good breeder - just old fashioned.  I'm trying to sort through everyone's ideas/philosophies and find something that fits.  Not easy when for each person there's individual thoughts/feelings.

As for 5 minute walks, she already gets those throughout the day.  We don't just take her out to potty - we walk her around a bit on the leash, I work with her on leash manners - I badly need to get a treat bag, right now putting treats in my pocket just don't work for easy access, it delays my response time badly)  She probably stays out more like 10 minutes or so walking around with us.  Heck she LOVES being out in the rain and today I've taken her out a few times, even knowing she does not need to go potty per say - just because she enjoys being out there.  I don't mind the rain myself either!  Of course a couple neighbors probably think I'm bonkers lol :) I have yet to see one person out walking their dogs today (it's been alternating b/t light rain and heavy).  

She has one more series of shots, which we are going to do as soon as possible (vet said make an appt. for 3-4 weeks out, we made one for 3).  After that she will be fully vaccinated.  She will then be immediately thrown into every puppy social within a 45 minute drive to us!  There's a Petco and Petsmart that each do free socials one on Monday nights *I believe alternating Mondays between large breed and small breed dogs* (Petsmart) and Petco which is every other Saturday.  The trainer we have coming to our house on July 7th runs puppy socials as well (for $5) and I will find out then from him when they are run (I just hope his are at ok hours given we do have to work). 

I would consider walking her around the block, and maybe a kiddie pool in the back yard, that way she's splashing around and getting used to the water and you know the water is clean.

 We have no backyard - it's all condo community property so a kiddie pool is out unfortunately - that would have all the neighbors up in arms.  But walking around the condo buildings is doable and I have done it before and got my eared chewed out for "walking my puppy" because they say it is inappropiate to walk a young puppy (walking around the buildings doesn't take very long maybe 10 minutes if I only walk around the left hand side of the complex). 

Maybe I should do less listneing to others and just go with my gut...though this is the first large breed puppy I've raised so I am very conscientous about not over excercising her while she's still developing.