should we take away the toys?

 I do want to thank everyone for the advice.  The SO and I talked last night and I told him I just cannot do what the breeder suggests - all this very hands on negative reinforcement.  I hate it - it's making me stressed out and sick to my stomach which in turn is probably making Ari nutty too!  Last night I went home completely positive that I'm just going to put on ratty clothes and hope that if she starts biting me again that it will stop before it becomes to extreme.  I'm also going to rotate her toys and come home to her with one in hand to refocus her "OMG MOMMY'S HOME" completely spastic attitude which is normal, but turns into biting (and she bites HARD) due to simple over excitement.  This worked well last night, I was actually able to refocus her on a toy, have fun with her (me being calm goodness knows she was wound up enough just by me coming home - mind you this is after my SO said he threw the toy for at least a solid half an hour for her - probably more like 45 minutes to tucker her out). 

My SO has remarked she is quite attached to me; I call her my shadow with teeth   The level of excitement she shows with me coming into the room or coming home is markedly different than what she shows to my SO (though she loves him too, she just follows me EVERYWHERE she can - though I've told her I am capable of getting myself a glass of water and going to the bathroom on my own - Ari disagrees). 

This morning she got very bitey again, and I walked away with her attached by the pant leg - I got a bruise on my leg from the bite, no puncture wound but she DID give up sat down and just looked at me going "huh?" so I got out her frozen washcloth and let her go to town on that.  Afterwards she was calmer though still trying to be bitey with  me so again I got up, walked away ignored her and directed her to her bully stick - which she LOOOOOVES more than my pant leg.  It's fun watching her run around (prancing more like) with a 12"bully stick.  

Oh I plan on uploading some pictures tonight of the terror for all of you :)  I got a real cute one of her and her bone.  She's hard to photograph being all black and she likes to get RIGHT into the camera's face. I wish we had a video camera (ours broke) so you could see her trying to sit still for the bone, her whole body looks about ready to burst!  But she does do VERY well containing herself - and obviously I don't keep her in the sit for long!  She's responding GREAT to the clicker...we're just doing simple things, and honestly the only thing I'm working on is "leave it" (using my fist holding a treat - she already picked up that my hand will not open if she paws and pokes at it so she automatically does not try to paw at it now, so I upped the ante and am making her look at me before I click and treat, soon once that becomes automatic I'll require a longer look at me - then I'll name it with "leave it";).  She sees me get the clicker and gets all happy (but clicker only comes out after a good play session when she can actually focus!). 

I feel better going back to just positive.  Obviously if she starts biting again to the point it is a safety hazard for me - then well we'll address it then.  Plus, we do have the meeting with the trainer this Sunday so it will be good to sit down and talk with her while Ari is present (though since we are going to her house I'm sure my little brat will be on her best behavior!). 
 

 Also, regarding taking Ari out before vaccines - I will be taking Ari with me to my next Petco/Petsmart excursion and just keep her in the cart.  Ari is nervous outside of the house with people around (though she's happy as can be when they get close enough they can lavish attention on her) so she is a bit on the insecure side and I think she really needs to be pushed in new situations despite risk of getting sick.  Unfortunately I cannot find a puppy social place that will let her in though   without being fully vaccinated.  I think she would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from meeting other puppers. 

Ari also met the vacuum cleaner recently- which is apparently something she does not fear and tries to play with!  Nothing like a play bowing puppy trying to engage a running vacuum cleaner in a game of chase  

good to hear you have a handle on things! you sound much happier with the situation now!

cant wait to see pics!

 Janet - I am much happier by our decision.  I suspect we will have nightmare days in the future, and good ones as well - but I love the little bugger to death and truly want what's best for her and my SO and I.  I will definitely get some pictures up tonight and put them in the picture forum :)  I need to find some good tips on photographing black dogs - really hard to get the lighting right (plus she tries to eat the camera lol). 

 Let me start this update with I DO LOVE Ari, even when I swear I just want to throttle her.  She was off the wall, I tried wearing her out with toys but she wanted NOTHING to do with the toys, nothing.  She wanted to jump and bite at me.  I'm now down two pairs of PJ pants and one shirt compliments of her choppers.  She's also started snapping at me if I remove her from a situation that she has to be removed from.  So things seem to be escalating. 

I put her in the kitchen, baby gated off so I could calm down and clean up a mess she made (she knocked over a chair which hit my desk and knocked over some stuff) and well Ari can now jump over the baby gates as of today.  

We rescheduled the trainer appt. to someone local who will come to our home, but that's not till the 7th now.  

I just do not know how to get it across to her that what I say goes, plain and simple.  It's all fun and games to her, what she wants is what she wants.  How does one go about positively teaching a dog the bounderies, that doesn't care if your entire body language and tone of voice says "Enough".  My SO says that my body language and tone of voice would be enough that any sane creature would knock it off (including him lol) and realize that "she's not happy perhaps I shouldn't be doing this" and I am VERY happy when she is playing nicely with me (aka not biting me) and I'm cheery (but careful to not let my tone get too excited or that winds her right up) and I make it a positive experience.  I do not want to go back to harsh methods, but my bruise collection is growing - thankfully no puncture wounds today but the snapping has me very worried. 

I'll keep with the methods I'm doing now in hopes it will sink in b/c I cannot stomach going back to what the breeder told me I should be doing.   

In good news we had a GREAT clicker training session last night.  We've progressed to me giving the verbal command for leave it with a treat in my open palm.  She focuses right on me and waits for the "Ok" - we'll work more on this tonight.  My goal is to keep progressing this command to eventually include parts of my anatomy - but that won't happen for awhile yet.   I was so happy with her progress though.  This dog is smart, and I realize a lot of our issues are due to puppy energy and intelligence and I'm working on creative ideas to keep her mind going because when she's focused it's amazing to watch her little mind going "ok what am I supposed to do...AHA that's what I"m supposed to do!". 

She LOOOVES her Busy Buddy bottle toy I got her, and it's helping us make sure she eats enough kibble (I think she prefers to work for her food).  She is on the skinny side, and a little too skinny as I can count her ribs with light finger touch but last night she ate most of her dinner out of the Buddy toy and went to town on it trying to figure out how to get at her food.  Maybe she's just bored with plain old eating out of a bowl heh. 

I think you are bang on target about energy and intelligence.... this dog obviously has these things in ABUNDANCE and my guess is she needs a lot more stimulation than she is currently getting to satisfy her.  Whn will she be "safe" to take out?

Also, what games do you play to tire her out?  How many clicker sessions can you fit in?  These are pretty tiring

I'd advise against tug and games of that sort at this stage and frankly you'd have to play "fetch" for AGES to make any sort of dent in her energy level, because that's going to be a game that is extremely easy for her.  I'm guessing she could do that one in her sleep.  Have you tried playing "hide n seek" with her toys?  This is just an extension of "fetch" but it gets her using her brain as well as her body and it also gets her jaws AWAY from your body parts and DOING something positive and constructive. 

I did suggest earlier in the thread holding her by the collar away from your body - not sure if you replied and I missed it but I was wondering if you had been willing to try that or whether you had found it helpful...?  It's a bit like the pin you were using before in that it does restrict her movement until she decides to calm down and stop biting, but I think it's much much gentler.  The dog CAN move, just not as much and can be prevented from biting, and she is not being held in a vulnerable position.  You could just use it as a temporary measure (like we did) just until the trainer can help you, but you never know, with a bit of luck your dog might do the same as ours and decide to interact nicely.... While you have her restrained so that she can't hurt you, you can give her the message that you WILL NOT play with her at this time (by looking away and freezing) and let up when she has stopped doing her impersonation of a crazed crocodile...

I do hold her by the collar and she FREAKS out trying to bite me.  I obviously do not let go until she has settled.  I have to do this because maybe I'm a wimp but her bites hurt, and I'm allergic to pain 

I don't play tug with her, but it sometimes hard to get her involved in her toys when she starts fixating on me and my extremities.  Though when she gets going it's great - and she's usually pretty good brining the toy back!  I don't think there is ANY tiring her out, mentally or physically - but I am going to do my best!

She wont' be fully vaccinated till she's 16 weeks old and she'll only be 13 weeks old come Sunday.  We are going to start bringing her places as safely as possible b/c socilization at this point is trumping all.  Plus, we have a puppy play date for Saturday morning, so hopefully that will go well *fingers crossed*. 

LOL Chuffy you sooo made my day with "impersonation of a crazed crocodile" in fact I think that's her new nickname!  I do think she got the message this morning (of course 5 minutes before I had to leave for work) because I just flat out ignored her (after the jumping the baby gate fiasco of course) until she finally settled down and layed down with a "huff" and so even though I HAD to leave in 5 minutes I called her over, she gave me kisses I took her out for a final bathroom break.  I left about 15 minutes later heh, thankfully as long as I'm in before 8:30 my boss doesn't bat an eye.  I was very impressed with her also this morning because I said to "kennel up" and normally she doesn't do anything different except try to find something on the rug to eat (she'll go right in the crate after the Kong goes in) but she hopped in and sat down waiting for her Kong!  I told her she was a good girl and made my exit, while she went to town on her Kong.  Maybe it was coincidence but hey I"ll take it!

As for clicker training I do about 3 short sessions during the work week (usually one in the morning, unless she's being a crazed crocodile) and two in the evening.  I keep them short so she doesn't get bored before we stop - to keep it fun and interesting and preferably wanting more :)  We just started really using the clickers and my SO hasn't touch his yet which I really want him to do (he does too he's just unsure what to do - so I plan on helping him out either in the evening or this weekend. I need to get some more literature on clicker training - so I can do it a bit more with confidence and frequency.

I just loved her "Aha!" moment last night and when it comes to tasty tidbits she'll work for it!  Plus last night we also upped the treat value to left over steak bits - They most definitely met Ari's seal of approval! 

If anyone has any creative suggestions to keep her mind going let me know! 

Also her new favorite game is tug the leash, I have no idea how to stop this.  If I ignore she still gets to tug the leash, if I try to take it out of her mouth THIS is when she started snapping at me.

 

the_gopher

Also her new favorite game is tug the leash, I have no idea how to stop this.  If I ignore she still gets to tug the leash, if I try to take it out of her mouth THIS is when she started snapping at me. 

 

Reel the leash in so there is no room for her to bite it. Pick up your pace and walk faster so she gets the hint that your walking her....not the other way around. If you stop and try and pull it away saying "no no" and flayling your hands around its just a game to her.

Don't forget your tone. For some reason I get the feeling your pleading with her to stop whenever she acts up. If this is the case you gotta stop that. Grab her lil self by her collar, put her in a firm sit and stop the action. Dont request or ask it of her, STOP her. I'm really starting to feel your frusteration and for all the puppies I've had its just really hard for me to imagine this going on this long. FIRM.....be firm with her. Your not being mean, your showing leadership. In addition you have tried so many techniques in the past couple of weeks nothing has been consistent with her.

Let her know you mean business, sit that butt down until she has composed herself. If your holding her collar firmly she shouldnt be able to flail around. You dont have to push or force her to hold still. And use your calm voice.

Exercise, discipline then affection.......I rarely agree with CM but thats the truth.

the_gopher

Also her new favorite game is tug the leash, I have no idea how to stop this.  If I ignore she still gets to tug the leash, if I try to take it out of her mouth THIS is when she started snapping at me.

 You could let her wear the leash around the house while being supervised and spray it with bitter apple.  This will do 2 things - get her used to the lead and realise its not good to chew and also give you a way of moving her if you need to while avoiding her teeth

the_gopher

because I just flat out ignored her (after the jumping the baby gate fiasco of course) until she finally settled down and layed down with a "huff"

I like that!  I think you should do that more often   I read somewhere the "huff" is a good sign - that a "weight has been lifted" and they can relax.... and RELAXING is what you want to reward for (with attention).

the_gopher

If anyone has any creative suggestions to keep her mind going let me know! 

Do a "moving" one, like "touch" (where she has to touch a target).  Otherwise you could end up with a dog like mine, whenever she sees the clicker she'll sit and stare holes in your head!

AuroraLove

the_gopher

Also her new favorite game is tug the leash, I have no idea how to stop this.  If I ignore she still gets to tug the leash, if I try to take it out of her mouth THIS is when she started snapping at me. 

 

Reel the leash in so there is no room for her to bite it. Pick up your pace and walk faster so she gets the hint that your walking her....not the other way around. If you stop and try and pull it away saying "no no" and flayling your hands around its just a game to her.

Don't forget your tone. For some reason I get the feeling your pleading with her to stop whenever she acts up. If this is the case you gotta stop that. Grab her lil self by her collar, put her in a firm sit and stop the action. Dont request or ask it of her, STOP her. I'm really starting to feel your frusteration and for all the puppies I've had its just really hard for me to imagine this going on this long. FIRM.....be firm with her. Your not being mean, your showing leadership. In addition you have tried so many techniques in the past couple of weeks nothing has been consistent with her.

Let her know you mean business, sit that butt down until she has composed herself. If your holding her collar firmly she shouldnt be able to flail around. You dont have to push or force her to hold still. And use your calm voice.

Exercise, discipline then affection.......I rarely agree with CM but thats the truth.

I definitely do NOT plead with her.  My commands for when she is doing something I do not want her doing is giving in a lower than my normal tone, firm, short and sharp but calm.  I am consistent now with a method.  I realize I have not been and my SO and I have agreed with a method that does not leave me sick to my stomach (aka doing what the breeder suggested).  My tone however has ALWAYS been consistent when giving commands.  I asked my SO to verify that my tone is coming across how I think it is and he agrees that I drop my tone of voice to a lower pitch (my normal pitch is on the high side) and it's no-nonesense and firm.  

Holding her collar is helping, she is very wiggly and I give her credit for her flexibility but combined with that and a firm hand on her to steady her she DOES eventually calm down and by having that other hand on her I can tell when her muscles relax underneath and she is ok to let go of.  I've had to do this several times tonight, but the last time I have done it - she calmed down quicker. She DOES not get released until she is calm.  She general goes off to and flops down somewhere and appears to "sulk" - so I let her and then eventually call her over to me and get her fetching again or do a clicker training session.

I do reel in the leash and that's how I ended up with another hole in my pants she latched onto that while I started walking in the direction I wanted to head with her.  I'll keep at this though until she gets it.  

I wish I could video tape, so I can show her behavior - but I cannot and again I do not convey everything here and I tend to vent here to let off steam - but in the moment I'm calmer with her than I may be coming across on the boards (but I need an outlet somewhere!).  

I am firm - I mean business and this is evident in my body language.  Now she just needs time for it to sink in.  

Chuffy

the_gopher

Also her new favorite game is tug the leash, I have no idea how to stop this.  If I ignore she still gets to tug the leash, if I try to take it out of her mouth THIS is when she started snapping at me.

 

 You could let her wear the leash around the house while being supervised and spray it with bitter apple.  This will do 2 things - get her used to the lead and realise its not good to chew and also give you a way of moving her if you need to while avoiding her teeth

 

the_gopher

because I just flat out ignored her (after the jumping the baby gate fiasco of course) until she finally settled down and layed down with a "huff"

 

I like that!  I think you should do that more often   I read somewhere the "huff" is a good sign - that a "weight has been lifted" and they can relax.... and RELAXING is what you want to reward for (with attention).

the_gopher

If anyone has any creative suggestions to keep her mind going let me know! 

Do a "moving" one, like "touch" (where she has to touch a target).  Otherwise you could end up with a dog like mine, whenever she sees the clicker she'll sit and stare holes in your head!

Chuffy, I tried the bitter apple spray and the leash in the house - the bitter apple spray worked for a day, now she ignores the taste!  I'll keep doing the holding the leash in tight and walking till she gets the message of "sorry hun but we're walking where I want to walk and the leash is not a toy".

The holding the collar like I mentioned above is working.  She flails around something fierce and my hold on the collar needs some work perhaps but with a firm (and gentle) hand on her to steady her seems to help (I'm thinking very calm thoughts trying to pass that on to her), plus with my hand on her like I said above I have an easier time feeling her muslces relax - because she can appear to the eye to be settled but her muscles are in knots and she's not really settled down - so I wait to feel the muscles relax before I release my hold on the collar.  

She's clonked out right now - we played a half way decent game with the toys and had a 10 minute clicker session that went really well, plus she worked on her bone something fierce - but she did get riled up to the point I had to hold her a few times by the collar and the SO had to once as well.  She tends to go away from us after she's been released plunks down in her spot she likes in the living room and huffs while just staring at us.  Right or wrong I ignore her for a bit - and then call her over to me, which she comes to me and I give her some attention and maybe we play with her toys.  

I will try touch because she does see the clicker plunks down and stares at me!  When she wakes up, after we go out to potty I"ll try introducing touch next.  (She tends to be pretty mellow but able to focus on me upon waking for a bit and I find it's a good time to break out the clicker).  

I just have to ask this, and then I'll leave this thread alone, but how is holding her by the collar until she is calm any different than holding her on her side or putting a hand around her muzzle?

Anyway...about the bitter apple spray, it only lasts 24 hours from what I read, you have to keep re-applying it.

Oh we do reapply the bitter apple spray, but she seems to ignore it when it's on her leash.  It is helping with the corners of the rug (where they go up a ways on the wall) so that's good at least since those corners have nails. 

I think Ari simply needs a "hands on" approach to settle her.  She IS a pushy dog.  By me keeping (or my SO) our hands on her till she settles - I like to think it tells her that no you are not going to be able to leave until you settle versus - well fine ignore me, I'll just go wreck havoc somewhere you can't ignore me and then I'll get attention anyway.  When she's relaxed and I release her she is MUCH calmer (even if it may be shortlived) and does not go wreck havoc or continue (at least for a little while) to try and bite at me.  

 Emma LIKES bitter apple!!! Try Vicks Vapor Rub

jennie_c_d

 Emma LIKES bitter apple!!! Try Vicks Vapor Rub

OH MY WORD!  I actually tried the bitter apple spray YUCK YUCK YUCK!  I will pick up some Vicks though!