should we take away the toys?

Janet, not a bad idea - still hate to think about using a muzzle though :(  We see the trainer this Sunday at 1pm - I wish she were not so far away (45 minute drive which given where we live is not bad, but I was hoping for someone more local when (or if) we ever get to the point of puppy classes).  I did place another call over to the place in the next town over to us, but I doubt they will get back to me.  Apparently they don't want life long customers (they do all sorts of obedience, behavioral, agility and CGC training there - but given that they cannot return a prospective clients phone call I doubt we will utilize any of there services).  

My SO gets home early today so I might take a trip down to the larger petstores in Concord NH (about 40-45 minutes away from where I live) and see about a play pen, a travel kennel (so I can bring her to work, since right now I am not comfortable having a dog walker until we figure out this biting issue) and some bitter apple spray since she had developed a fondness for the rug corners and putting a toy in her mouth works for about 10 seconds and she'll even leave her meaty bone to gnaw on it (probably b/c it forces attention from us - negative granted but attention, but I cannot let her do it because as we've found out our rugs are nailed down and that's dangerous for her to be doing). 

I will say she is a challenge - and I do like the little bugger (please don't anyone think differently sometimes I dont' write out my full thoughts/feelings here) and I'm trying to see the challenge as something fun to figure out.  Maybe if I can get into the "Ari spirit" that everything is a game - a solution will come that will work (given time and consistency). 
 

hehe, she sure is a handful, huh?

well, let us know how it goes ok? :)

I did introduce the clicker to Ari and she quickly figured out click = treat and b/c all of these harsher methods of training we have been trying just upset me even more...so I'm thinking of suggesting to the SO that we bothwalk around clicking like mad anytime she does ANYTHING we like and give her a small treat.  We might end up with a fat over treated puppy - but it's tearing me up that I could be causing her to distrust me.  I will still have to do some aversive methods unfortunately, I'm picking up bitter apple spray today to spray on the corners of the carpet and the couch.  And I'm not quite sure what method I can stick with that will be safe for both me and Ari for when she bites. Like I said ignoring it doesn't help and causes her to bite even more.  So unless I want to walk around bloody....until she finally gets it then I don't know if ignoring will help matters any. 

I'm also going to see about getting her some bully sticks - and bumpy type chewies since those seem to draw her attention more than most.  I went to the local petstore this weekend but could find nothing in way of good chew toys.  They had a couple different kinds of Kongs (basically the orginal red which we have, a small puppy, and a black one) and some very small (we're talking yorkie puppy sized chewies that Ari would choke on in a second!) This after the guy at the place got snooty with me b/c he saw my Petco and Petsmart cards and gave me a lecture on not giving my business to places "like that"- well I'd shop local if they ever had anything in their store!   

Counting down the days till we see the trainer.  I'm looking forward to this.  She did plug her book to us to read in the mean time (which sounds kinda pushy to me) but I can forgive that since I did like what I read of her philosophy on her website.   

I don't think you have a "bad dog" and I don't think you've "ruined" her (she's what, 3 months old??? she has LOTS of time ).  Your attention is rewarding to her, and as you say, it's too painful to wait out the extinction burst, so you have to try something else.  She does sound like a tough nut and I can sympathise because I;ve been there, but you are doing the right thing getting hands on help.  Just remember...  if you don't like the advice the trainer gives you then you can discard it.  She's YOUR dog and you have good instincts... hold that thought.

Muzzle?

Grabbing scruff of neck?

Clamping mouth shut?

WOW everyone its a bit troubling to me that TYPICAL puppy behavior is too much for some people here on the forum, good grief.

All of this is typical puppy behavior....excitment, biting, nipping, responding excitedly to overly eager tones. A PUPPY for gosh sakes. Take it out of the house, expose it to new things, places and people. He needs to romp, play and tear some toys up. He needs to meet new people and be so tired by the end of the day he is "dog tired", LOL. Run that pup until he drops. All this talk of crating, discipling, bad dog, and such is so sad. It truly sounds to me as if you may have been better suited for a adoptable dog and this pup may be too much for you. I have rarely known a puppy to act any other way. And a retriver at that.....this is a high energy dog who requires immense stimulation. Out of curiosity what is you goal or plan for this dog as he grows up?

There has been some great suggestions here but I think a deep breath should be the first step. How is a puppy supposed to act? Also keep in mind this is a learning process. Success isnt gonna happen overnight but it sounds like the pup is already making progresss!

I mean really! Look at these vids of puppy play.....Lil terrors,.....LOL they NEED fun and stimualtion and FUN first and foremost before they can evolve into healthy adults!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmuLhcoU6s&feature=related

Thanks Chuffy - and that's exactly what I wanted to say "it's too painful to wait out the extinction burst", though if that's what it takes I'll put on clothes that can be ruined and hope that I won't need stitches after (she's biting HARD now) and see if they make female protective cups since my crotch area is her favorite target spot.  I hope I haven't ruined her, I had nightmares all last night - I just feel plain terrible.  But if it means she'll stop biting then it's what I'll do even at risk to my own limbs!  I think I'm up to date on my tentnus....

I hope we like the trainer, but I have no hesitation finding another if this initial meeting does not work for EITHER myself or my SO (we both need to be comfortable with any trainer we pick after all and have agreed if one of us doesn't care for the trainer, we find someone else no matter how much the other loves them).  I haven't been able to get any other trainer to respond to my phone calls or emails - which is disheartening especially when I say I will pay emergency fees if needed!  I think having a trainer work with us one on one is going to be of great help. 

I thought about this some more and Ari is a very sweet dog first thing in the morning when she wakes up, she's also hungry.  I think I'm going to start small clicker training sessions at this time - because she's very focused on me (in a good way) and in a very calm state. She doesn't usually get into full swing until about 6:30 or so (we get up b/t 5-5:30).

I bought her another teething chew toy, some more treats (smaller sized so I don't have to spend so much time cutting treats up into training bites), bitter apple spray (hope she doesn't like it) for the couch and rug spots she's fond of gnawing on now (might even put it on myself), and a Busy Buddy bottle type toy meant for self amusing that treats can go into as well.  And a bully stick.  the petstore I went to is very very expensive, so after this Bully sticks/toys/treats are going to be bought online!
 

I do not mind puppy behavior - in fact in the past I enjoyed it immensely hence my decision to bring home a puppy, but I have puncture wounds on my inner thigh and others on my arm.  My crotch has been bit at repetedly and thankfully she was NOT able to latch on there but I do not expect my luck to hold.  Any other pup I have interacted with ignoring is usually sufficient to get the message across or an "uh uh" - Ari thinks it's all a game, even when you cry out in pain (like I did with my inner thigh wound). 

I love watching her zoom - though I wish she were fully vaccinated so she could get into puppy playgroups (bad news there the local pet place that intially said it was meant for dogs of all ages no matter the vaccination status, well that's not true) - Good news an employee of my SO mother is coming up with a Husky puppy (just a week or two older than Ari) and two other dogs (one about 4 years old, and one a senior citizen) that they would like us to introduce to Ari so we're working out the details of how to best go about that.  Unfortunately we do not know anyone else with dogs and/or puppies - we've lived here for almost a year but don't really have any friends up here.  I love the puppy sillies she gets and watching her get a toy and go to town on it.  I like watching her at night try to get the lightening bugs, and staring at the moths with utter fascination or attacking the ant hills with butt wiggles.  I love how she knows how to sit before she gets her dinner or bone and I love how she waits at the bottom of the stairs for me when I leave to use the bathroom and But she bites hard enough to easily draw blood - and that's something that does need to be addressed. 

I expect biting, chewing etc, but biting humans cannot be tolerated when it's this painful and she is lunging after me when I am walking into the room, and not even playing with her.  She needs to learn bounderies of what is and is not acceptable, b/c I don't want my sweet 20 lbs puppy to feel that biting humans is fine - soon she'll be 55-60lbs.  Biting toys = good, biting her bone = good, biting a frozen washcloth = good, using humans as chew toys is not. Biting furniture is not acceptable and nor is biting the human taking you away from ripping up that piece of carpet that has nails on it (did not know it was nailed down found that out when she managed to rip it up in under a minute what she did the other day. 

I am not going to be doing any of the above measures anymore, despite it being what the breeder has told me to do, including a trainer I talked to on the phone.  I'm sick to my stomach. 

I don't want a controlling overly dominant relationship with her, but I do expect her to learn the ropes and learn that biting humans is never acceptable.  I just never worked with a dog such as Ari that it's all fun and games to her no matter what. 

 I don't expect success overnight - I just want to find something that works for Ari that she understands this is not a game.  Heck to be VERY HONEST, I actually really like her "fun attitude" towards life and everything - it's a big part of the reason I love Flat Coated Retrievers so much (including Ari), but the "fun attitude" towards biting humans is not acceptable. 

Aurora, I may be mistaken without re-reading the replies, but most of the stuff you have listed up there (the scruff etc.) is stuff suggested by the breeder or other sources and people here are advising other things, like more exercise, more rewards fro appropriate behaviour and complete and total removal of attention for biting.

Honestly though, I've been where Sharon is and we also considered a muzzle!  My then boyfriend also used quite physical tactics to try to get the pup to stop (which didn't work).  We KNEW that the pup was normal, the behaviour was normal, but that doesn't make it hurt any less!

Chuffy

Aurora, I may be mistaken without re-reading the replies, but most of the stuff you have listed up there (the scruff etc.) is stuff suggested by the breeder or other sources and people here are advising other things, like more exercise, more rewards fro appropriate behaviour and complete and total removal of attention for biting.

Honestly though, I've been where Sharon is and we also considered a muzzle!  My then boyfriend also used quite physical tactics to try to get the pup to stop (which didn't work).  We KNEW that the pup was normal, the behaviour was normal, but that doesn't make it hurt any less!

My post was a lil snippy but I didnt want anyone to forget to see things from a puppy point of view and to not discount good ole socialization and exercise. I think keeping the pup out of public is going to proove more determintal then not but I understand the OP's, SO concern. I just cant shake the thought that for decades.....eons puppies were allowed to play in public and anywhere they wanted and just recently in the past 20 years has it become a big no-no, LOL. Sure we have more diseases and more dogs now but the chances of him contracting something fatal is not that great. Nor am I suggesting being in public is going to solve his nipping but it would tire him out, help bond him to the owners and give the whole family a chance to let go for a bit.

Now while I respect everyone's indvidual concerns and limits on what to do with pups I am curious as to the likelyhood of him catching something fatal. I've alwyas taken my pups everywhere and dont really chalk it up to luck that they hadnt gotten sick. The only palces I stay away from are dog parks and pet stores at that age.

Either way good luck with the pup.....have we gotten any pics of this lil spitfire yet?

Honestly some of the stuff described by the op doesn't sound like normal puppy stuff to me, it sounds rather extreme for a puppy, and that may be why she is getting advise that sounds more extreme than the typical yelp and ignore or redirect with a toy approaches. Ripley, who I considered to be nippier than normal still never drew blood or bit when I wasn't handling or playing with him, and Frosty as well as other puppies I've dealt with never nipped/mouthed at all...chewed furniture/toys/rugs/etc, but not people. I don't want to make the op feel any worse, maybe "not normal" is a bad choice of words, but it sounds like she has a difficult puppy on her hands. I debated on whether or not to admit to using the holding the mouth closed technique here, but decided to on the off chance it helped. Anyone is free to take it or leave it. I hope the trainer is able to help and the op is able to enjoy her puppy.

ETA: I took my two everywhere also, but I didn't know until much later that there was a whole school of thought against that.

2shelties

. I debated on whether or not to admit to using the holding the mouth closed technique here, but decided to on the off chance it helped.

And I guess that is where I get frusteration starts. You have to keep in mind we have many lurkers on this forum and while its great to want to help out we should all refrain from giving advice that could potenially do more harm then good. Its laughable really some of the things people suggest, I'm surprised nobody suggested the alpha roll!

Ypu cant say "tale it or leave it" when this person is here distraught seeking helpful advice.....we all need to keep that in mind. 2shelties I wasnt trying to pick on you just make us all a bit more aware of our replies.

AuroraLove

Its laughable really some of the things people suggest, I'm surprised nobody suggested the alpha roll!

Ha ha!  To some people, that's exactly what that "pin" is.  It all depends who you're talking to  

AuroraLove

Ypu cant say "tale it or leave it" when this person is here distraught seeking helpful advice.....we all need to keep that in mind. 2shelties I wasnt trying to pick on you just make us all a bit more aware of our replies.

And here I thought this is how internet forums work.....people toss out their advice and opinions and the person who looks for advice picks from what is best for them.....you know, take it or leave......eh....

snownose

AuroraLove

You cant say "tale it or leave it" when this person is here distraught seeking helpful advice.....we all need to keep that in mind. 2shelties I wasnt trying to pick on you just make us all a bit more aware of our replies.

 

And here I thought this is how internet forums work.....people toss out their advice and opinions and the person who looks for advice picks from what is best for them.....you know, take it or leave......eh....

Well thanks for taking that out of context, LOL There IS a differnece between offering potentially harmful advice and something you think might geniunally help.. I was simply pointing out that is a negative reinforcement that shouldnt be applied to a puppy who dosnt know better at this point.

I did think it genuinely might help or I wouldn't have put it out there. I knew it wouldn't be popular, and I'm fine with that.