should we take away the toys?

There is a section on my website (you guys know I don't sell nuffin) under "Question Corner" called "The Voice" -- it's some silly exercises very similar to what the breeder is talking about.

It's hard for we humans to really understand how the sound of our voices can wind a dog up.  Either inadvertently we can make things worse, OR we can ignore a perfect opportunity to use our voice as a 'reward'.  What she's telling you do to is good stuff. 

True story -- Billy is very food-motivated BUT even more, he is attention-motivated.  Not just petting and loving BUT "star of the show" kind of thing.  When we adopted him he had many many training issues - he'd been abused (which didn't show up til after the adoption) and obedience class was VERY difficult.  He was so terrified of going into a 'down' he would literally stand and shake until his teeth rattled. 

He also had a terrifed/fear aggression because he'd been abused by some little about-age-7 blonde girls. 

By the time he decided being with us was the greatest thing since kibble, he also had worked himself into a fair-sized dose of separation anxiety -- and trying to train him to do a "sit/stay" while I walked 20 feet away from him with my back TO him and then for him to not break that stay til I called him?  Wow .... talk about a challenge.

I discovered quite by accident (because it's a "me thing" to talk with my hands) that I could walk away from him with my back to him, but could reassure him by gesturing a 'stay' behind my back.  "ok .. she hasn't forgotten me". 

But then the big huge payoff -- When I'd get to that 20 foot mark, and turn - I would give him this big "I'm bored ... I think I'll stand here for a while and YOU need to stay there too because I haven't called you ..... YET!!!" look.

I could stand there, rub my toe in the dirt, look at the sky ... fool around and his expectation would build like a rocket about to blast off.  FINALLY I would put a HUGE grin on my face, throw my arms out and scream "COME TO ****MOMMMYYYYYYYYYY***" and he would bolt to me like he was taking off for Jupiter. 

It was hysterical.  Every week those in our class used to just go into hysterics waiting for Billy to 'wait' for me (while their dogs may or may not break a sit and might wander over to see another dog instead of 'comng' straight to them). 

But he was doing it FOR THE APPLAUSE.  He *KNEW* this was a big huge Billy-sized opportunity to have the world look at him and go "AWWWWW he's SO cute!!"

My point is this -- get to know *this* dog.  Know what truly, deep down, trips this dog's trigger ... what motivates THIS dog, what distracts ... what focuses them.  And USE it. 

You may find that your *voice* ... with this dog ... is key.  Your dog will learn that 'Ohhhh boy ... Mom's SERRY-US'  tone and will just plain not punch your buttons. 

But then -- it will bite you because you can't over-use a thing that 'works' or they'l .... *sigh* ignore it!!

and btw -- the thing we finally foudn that was the key to a down stay?  While we were here at home, no pressure, no 'training mode'-- just sitting around chilling -- when I would see him lie down of his own accord I would say TO DAVID "Wow ... Billy is doing such a GOOD 'lay down'!!  That is a great 'lay down' isn't it David?"

"yeah, boy that is a GREAT lay down!"

He came to re-associate the words with no pain, no stress, just "hmm, I'm not doing nuffing but laying here -- THAT is all they want?"

Gradually after seeing him "lay down" and commenting to each other -- we began to address him directly "GOOD lay down Billy! good job!"  And then call him from that position to us to "lay down" with a reward.  It took almost 2 months to extinguish the fear and retrain ...

But that's why stuff like clicker training can work -- isolating a behavior so they know THIS ... this exact second ... is what you want. 

But it's all under communication.  Sorry this was long -- and your dog hasn't been abused, but challenging training IS ... a challenge!

calliecritturs

the greatest thing since kibble

lol callie! that is such a cocker spaniel attitude! you made me chuckle right there!!

 Good Boy Billie! 

I will say Ari is forcing me to relax - not easy since I have a dignosed anxiety/depression issue - but who knows maybe she's in my life now that I have been trying to work on it, and she's going to force me to take those extra steps that I will not take on my own. 

She is very bitey this morning, and I'm doing deep breathing, trying to make myself very very very calm - because Ari is completely fixated on biting me and not the toys.  I'm doing what the breeder suggested - which is to mimic what her doggy mother would be doing with an unruly bratty puppy and what has worked with her throughout her litters.  The command my SO and I use is No Bite and when she doesn't respond to pressure on her scruff, the next step the breeder said is to put firm (but not harsh) pressure with my fingers on the neck muscles.  If THAT doesn't work, mimicing that latter hold she goes on her side with my other hand resting on her flank.  I repeat the No Bite, firmly but CALMLY and I'm doing my darndest to keep my steadying hand steady and inside me calm to pass that on to her.  She only gets up when she 1. stops squirming to try and bite me and 2. I feel her muscles relax underneath me.  This is working the best, out of everything we've tried but this morning she's in rare form - she is currently self amusing with a frozen dog chew toy.  I'm glad I managed to refocus her onto that. 

Being calm is hard for me, and this is throwing into stark view just how much nervous energy I carry around all day.  I mean I have always known - but when you have dog in the house who may very well be feeding off this - well I may even consider going back into counseling for a spell and taking my former counselor's advice to try anti-anxiety medication for a short term till I learn better how to focus and calm myself (I had tried antidepressents in the past when they thought my anxiety was caused by my depression - but it looks like it's the reverse).  I also did not like the antidepressents made me feel fine (which is great) but completely not myself (which I hated).

I hadn't thought about my emotional state, since the last dog I lived with was not as sensitive and could have cared less how anxious I was.  I think Ari is going to be teaching me a heck of a lot more than I could ever teach her.  I'm Ok with that 

Ripley was a nipper as a puppy, to the point that I couldn't pet him or hold him without being nipped, and I seriously was starting to think he either had a bad temperament, or I had gotten him too young and he was going to be "ruined" because of that. We tried holding his muzzle closed and saying NO BITE firmly, and that worked for us. I didn't like doing it at first, but we saw results after about a week and after a month he was not nipping at all. The key for us was doing it every single time he nipped, without fail. I think the first few times he was getting amped up, but it did start to work. I also never play with my dogs using my hands, not even with a toy in my hand. They have plenty of toys, but I don't shake toys at them and encourage them to bite at or pounce on the toys. The other thing that helped alot was when we got a second puppy...not recommending a second puppy, but the sooner you can get her around some other puppies, the better imo.

Try Booda Bimples. They're a corn starch based, edible chewy. They're TERRIBLE, but puppies LOOOOOOOOVE them. It's something that you can leave lying around. The first time she bites a chunk off of one, though, I'd pick them all up and throw them away. I wouldn't use them for a dog who bites off pieces of stuff, for fear of blockage.

My goofy, adult dog throws hers in the water bowl and softens it before she chews. She's a cheater.

which is to mimic what her doggy mother would be doing with an unruly bratty puppy and what has worked with her throughout her litters.  The command my SO and I use is No Bite and when she doesn't respond to pressure on her scruff, the next step the breeder said is to put firm (but not harsh) pressure with my fingers on the neck muscles.  If THAT doesn't work, mimicing that latter hold she goes on her side with my other hand resting on her flank. 

dogs don't actually do this, ever. Very bad, outdated advice.

And why use a command? you want the dog to NOT_BITE at all times, not just when you use a command. I have a few permanent scars from puppy bites. Puppies bite. Retrievers and herding dogs tend to be very mouthy. Your best response is to scream and freeze. DO NOTHING. Any behavior on your part is rewarding to the puppy. Scream loudly in a short, high-pitched tone and then freeze and stare off into space while you count to thirty, then resume life as if nothing had happened. And when the puppy is NOT_BITING work on teaching the puppy appropriate ways to play with people.

Wear thick long-sleeved long-pants for a few weeks, and always have toys and treats on you. Puppies are a royal pain but luckily they get over it fast.

mudpuppy

dogs don't actually do this, ever. Very bad, outdated advice.

I have heard anecdotes that SOME dogs do this [pin] on rare occasions. 

I have never yet met a breeder - online or in real life - who has given me an acual account of a dam doing this.  Some say "this is what they do" but not (for example) "Sally did this with THIS pup for THIS offence and only had to do it once and the pup learned."  It just seems to be one of those "well known facts" in certain circles that has never actually been verified.  I would actually be really really interested if you pumped the breeder for some more information on this (and I believe it WOULD help you a lot as well!).  WHICH of her females did it, did they do it on ALL pups or just especially bratty ones, how many times did they do it before it worked.... do you see what I mean?

And, as I said above, the best verification I've got for this technique is that SOME dogs do it, but it's RARE.  It SHOULD NOT be a daily occurence IMO.  To be honest, being bit is not pleasant and if this is what it takes to get the dog to not-bite *in that moment* then I honestly don't blame you for doing it.  But I have my doubts about it as a long term training method.  I can see it quickly losing its efficacy if over-used and will either cease to be effective or will actually antagonise the pup... I'm sure I don't have to paint you a picture.  Watch his body language very carefully when he gets up. 

mudpuppy

And why use a command? you want the dog to NOT_BITE at all times

I am in 100% agreement with this as well.  

mudpuppy

Any behavior on your part is rewarding to the puppy.

I have a strong suspicion that mp is on to a winner here.  I think your best bet is to know the pup will bite and to do whatever necessary tpo PRE-EMPT the biting, redirect onto an appropriate object and praise like crazy for not-biting you.

Have you tired smearing cheese spread or peanut butter on any of her chews or toys?

Have you tried freezing any of her toys or chews (you might have mentioned this and I missed it).  A frozen kong will actually provide her with stimulation as well as pain relief and something to chew on.

Have you tried giving her ice cubes?

 YEs we do freeze her toys, she gets frozen chew toys, frozen raw meaty bones, frozen washcloths.  She also does get ice.  I'm getting so much darn conflicting advice I just give up.  Seriuosly.  Holding her muzzle only ENCOURAGES her.  Ignoring her ENCOURAGES her.  I do not shake her toys nor drag them anymore - just throw them to tucker her out. 

Everything I do is just plain wrong I get it.

If you stick 3 dog trainers round a table, the only thing 2 of them could agree on is that the 3rd is wrong.

It's discouraging, but don't be disheartened.... your dog is just being a puppy.  He won't stay a puppy forever, honest!

If everything you do is encouraging her, then stick I would stick with the walking away.  You can't inadvertantly encourage her if you are not with her.  You said yourself you have a lot of "energy" which she is feeding off.  She can't feed off that if you're not there.  I'd also re-enter the room fairly  quickly and leave again if you need to, because re-entry a long time later will be meaningless to her.  And keep doing that till she gets it.  I'd expect a turn around within about 2 days.  Have you tried Bitter Apple in the mean time?

DON'T GIVE UP!!
 

Please don't be disheartened, and don't think of yourself doing everything wrong.  It's just that it hasn't clicked yet for Ari, and it will at some point.

You've heard lots of advice here, and I have to agree with Chuffy's view.  Honor was a horrific biter, and broke skin on me a whole bunch of times before we got the biting under control.  I tried the same methods that you have (except the pinning), and I didn't think it was making any difference at all.  What finally helped Honor get it was being HUGELY proactive, and praising everything she was doing right.  I started praising her for playing with toys, for laying down, for rolling over, for sniffing, ANYTHING that was an acceptable puppy behavior.  So when she got over-excited and bit me, I tried the ignoring again, standing up and walking away from her with my back turned.  I would watch her out of the corner of my eye, and when she calmed down (instead of circling me like a shark), I would play and praise for her calm behavior. 

I believe this worked for Honor because she's a very smart girl, and quickly picked up on the pattern of "ooh! treat!, ooh! treat!.....wait, NO treat!??!".  Praising her for any sort of good behavior made the absence of my attention and treating all the more obvious.  It also made for a pretty seamless transition into clicker training, but that's a whole other story.

I hope this all makes sense.  What others have said about not rewarding the behavior with ANY attention is pretty spot on.  But it will take a while, and I think that Ari's getting it in baby steps, but you might be too close to the situation to see.  You've posted a few times on here about improvements in her behavior, so I know she has it in her.  Try not to think about a bad incident as a failing, just another opportunity to get it right the next time!

Please have faith in yourself, I know Ari will get it.  

You've been receiving a lot of good advice, here.

I never had puppy bites to contend with. My dog, however, was more mouthy in his younger days. Both of his breeds are mouthy but he also has soft mouth, which is soft lips and pressure sensitivity. He can put his mouth on you and not hurt you. But many people do not know that and are likely to panic. So, I trained him to not mouth with negative punishment, which is, I would curl my hand inward and away from him and turn away. Out of the corner of my eye, when he would relax from the desire, I would return to affection and attention.

As for how momma teaches bite inhibition, I don't think it's so much a correction as teaching how to play. Momma might corral or control a pup or even hold one down but it is not necessarily a correction. She releases pressure when they play right. In essence, she teaches them how to play nice. That being said, it is not advisable to hold the scruff, even though it can be an emergency hold, at times, as long as you realize that it is only an emergency hold and has limited, if any, training value. I know because I used to do it. But my dog's previous owner would wrestle with him for play so the scruff felt like play, a reinforcer, and most times, my dog would roll himself. And then continue to jump on guests or mouth them.

The hardest thing I had to learn was to not reinforce something. That's harder than knowing when to give a treat or punish. There's a wise saying, you get what you reinforce. I've yet to see where those words fail.

ETA: I also remember now that you said the pup was 11 weeks old. Give him and yourself some time.

 I'll stop pinning, I'll stop saying no bite.  I'll stop scruffing.  But what you need to understand is Ari is now just plain old biting at times when we need to stop her from doing something (like the corner of the rug she pulled up that had nails - she bit me when I had to remove her from the situation).  Probably my fault for ruining what was probably a good dog.  I cannot praise excitedly for good things, she gets over excited comes after me and bites.  I praise calmly now but with affection (and relief) in my voice when she does do something right. I praise (and always have even before all this) when she picks up a toy, when she sits calmly by your side, when she goes out and does her business, when she waits by the door letting us know she needs to go out etc etc).  We use treats as well when she's doing something we want her to be doing.

I cannot simply turn around and ignore her like that b/c I have sustained painful bites doing that.  Leaving the room, is the only option - but before we can do that my SO and I are trying to work out where we can tether her to to keep her off the couch (where she goes when we leave the room when she is bitey beyond belief).  

At this point I just cannot play with her.  She ignores the toys and focuses her attention on biting me (in play but entirely not acceptable).  I'm hoping a trainer who can see us in person can gie us some tool that will work.  I'll do what I need to with consistency but I will be stopping what the breeder told me - it seems to be escalating matters not helping in the slightest - and I hate doing it and suspect that it will NEVER help matters with her, just continue to escalate the situation.  

I would love to play with her but despite changing how I play with her, her focus is on biting me...and one thing this dog does not lack is focus.

sharon, i can so feel the frustration in your post! i honestly dont know what the right course of action is... but i think getting a trainer into your home to observe your interactions is a very good idea... maybe there are some things you are communicating to you dog that you dont know about and we cannot tell, because we dont see it. who knows...

just make sure the trainer is competant... i heard some pretty crazy stories about trainers here on the board, so i just wanna let you know, that this is YOUR dog. dont let an "expert" change that. most likely though this trainer will be able to help you...

i'm not sure how big ari is, but maybe for now (as a management technique) if you had him drag a leash, then when he approaches you and tries to bite, by jumping up, then you could step on the leash and prevent her from reaching you... it's just a thought...

i think though, as most people have said, you have to be patient. this isnt something that is going to go away over night. it will be a slow and gradual progress. the only thing i have noticed in this thread (and i might be entirely wrong, by the way) is that it seems that you tried a whole lot of different techniques, but didnt really stick with one long enough, possibly. again, i could be wrong, and just gotten the wrong impression...

in any way, i am glad that ari is with you and not with your average dog owner. she might have lost her home by now! it shows dedication on your side!

don't get peaved by people disagreeing with your methods. i know it's hard, but ultimately there are many believes and schools of thought in dog training. in a situation like this different people have different approaches and in the end YOU know what works best. here you just have to take in the advice, ignore the flaming (although i dont think anyone was trying to flame you in this case! just trying to help!), figure out what works for you and let the rest go!

i was just thinking... maybe if you muzzled her? not sure if someone already suggested that... i know it's less than ideal, but it would take some of the stress and frustration away from you, and in my experience that goes a long way in working on a problem with a dog! also it might just force ari to focus her attention on a different type of activity, you know? although she might get frustrated with that and it might make things worse. i guess there's always a chance, but it might be worth a shot, if for nothing else, then for your own sanity!

please keep us updated on your progress with ari and your experience with the trainer! i'll send some sanity vibes your way!!

 I would hate to muzzle her.  She does need to chew, as she is teething (which I am really hopping is 99% of the problem).  The one method we tried the longest was turning around and ignoring her.  That's how I sustained the worst of my bites.  Until we can think of a tethering option in the living room - we can't leave her b/c now she sees it as "great they are gone and the couch is all mine!).  WE got soem clickers, and we're going to introduce her to that in hopes if we carry around the clickers we will be better able to "catch" her doing something right.  Negatively trying to teach her is killing me inside.  I do not like being forceful.  Hate it.  It's how I learned how to train dogs, with a choke and an alpha roll....I promised myself I would never do that again, and here I am doing a modified version of it (minus the choke collar she doesn't wear one). 

Unfortunately we will be going to the trainers home for this first visit and I am not to keen on that.  We found the pet trainer on apdt website.  I have heard good things about the local place to us, but my opinion of them stinks right now because they dont' return phone calls.  

Getting rid of Ari is not in the picture.  All I want is to find some way of redirecting her biting and wrong behaviors where she doesn't think it's a game.  You take her off the couch and ignore her, she play bows and gets right back on usually while biting you.  Etc etc.  It is frustrating.  I'm breathing deeply and trying my hardest to not feel so frustrated, but it's at the point where I should just have minimal interaction with her b/c that's the only thing that stops the biting.  So feed her, walk her take care of her basics put down her frozen toys and that's about it until we get the trainer involved.

That more than anything hurts this inability to interact with my dog b/c even when interacting calmly she still sees me as a chew toy and someone to not take seriously (she doesn't really take my SO seriously anymore either even though he's a calm person by nauture with a deeper and slower voice than me).  Everything is a game - so she has her toys out, she can self amuse for the time being.  

hmmm.... maybe if you set up a play pen where she has her chew toys... then you could muzzle her only for when you interact with her, you know? maybe she will make the connection that way. intercting with mom means not chewing, but something else that's fun! it would also prevent her from getting that automatic positive feel when biting you, so you would stop that self reinforcement...

just brainstorming...

when are you seeing the trainer?