should we take away the toys?

VanMorrison

I don't have any advice for you and it sounds like you are way beyond me in knowing what to try.

 My thoughts are with you as you struggle with this - I know it is really hard for you and your SO.  Within a very short time this will be resolved and you will have a wonderful Ari with a fantastic bond.

All I'm saying is - hang in there.

Van Morrison THANK you :)  I know the bond will develop there...and it's just a matter of finding some style of communication/training that is going to work with her.  Trial and error, but this biting has to stop.  My SO has to warn me when he's watching her if I happen to not be facing her that she is coming over and my first instinct is to cringe now.  That's not good.  I've never cringed from a dog before.  I'm working on my stress level, and I make sure when I come home I am in a calm collected state of mind even if that means I'm doing deep breathing just sitting in my car and I enter the house with the mindset THIS will be a good night and THIS will be the night we find some sort of connection that works. 

I know this is all typical rambunctious puppy behavior and WE just need to find something that works that encourages the good/appropiate behavior and firmly w/o question discourages what we don't want. 

 

Gopher,

Call your breeder and discuss your problems with her!  Find out if her mother was a biter or if other litter mates or relatives were like this and if they were, what did he/she did.  This kind of intense biting and her lack of a response to your training is NOT in keeping with what a flat-coats temperament should be. 

Do you know anyone with a dog that she can play with?  Getting her with other dogs will help so much.

I know Parvo is a risk, but right now there is a MUCH larger risk of her getting entrenched in bad behaviors which will drastically damage her ability to have a good life. 

What do people think of putting a basket muzzle on her so she can learn to exist without biting, kind of like using a psychiatric drug while you are training other behaviors? 

the_gopher

She has a different approach, she's telling me I should keep my hands on her, still hands, till she calms down and directed me to a book/dvd to get called Get Connected by Brenda ALoff.  So I am a bit confused if I should go with the STOP NO BITE, or keep my hands on her till she calm.

I would try the combination.  The reason the trainer suggested you to keep her hands on her (or near her) is you don't want to pull back giving the pup the feeling of "winning".  You pull away from her, she thinks she is big stuff and can outrank you.  I would still do the "No bite"...but you are not sure at this point if she knows what "no" means.

There are a couple of other things you can try with the biting issue (which some folks on this board may blast me for):  when she comes at you and bites, firmly and with a low voice say "No" and press down on her tongue (towards the back, but not so far back that she will gag)...remember that dogs do not like uncomfortable; amd will steer away from anything that makes them feel that way.  Do that enough times, and she will realize what she is doing to make her uncomfortable.

Some people hold the muzzle closed when they bite...i think that is counterproductive....can make them more amped up.  If you try the tongue thing...be calm, be firm, and simply make it uncomfortable for her...you don't want to hurt her, of course.  .

Some people grap the sides of the face, say "NO" and stare in to the eyes with a stern face, lifting her front legs off the ground ...that didn't work with my girl.  Amped her up; counterproductive.  The tongue thing worked.  She didn't like that at all and realized finally what not to do. Time, training, socializing with other dogs and maturity helped in my case as well. 

She now has beautiful bite inhibition.  Ari will get there too!

ETA:  The basket muzzle may be a good idea to save your skin...its a good thought and should be considered, IMO.

I have tried the holding the muzzle, but she did get amped up.  I will try the tongue thing though.  I hate to be harsh, but positive method only doesn't seem to work.  Flat coats apparently think EVERYTHING is fun and games - which would be great if she did know what is not.  

She definately has no concept of the word NO.  So I think I will try both approaches, and just have to use my gut feeling as to which is appropiate at what time. 

I hate to put on a basket muzzle, but it may be necessary.  If after a week or two (not sure how long to give it) using these new techniques does not yield ANY type of change in the right direction, than I will try the muzzle.  My inner thigh is really sore.  It's not a deep puncture wound thankfully, but that's a very tender spot to get bit. 

I got a call from the SO and he had a very good lunch break with her.  He took her down to the fields and they ran into several men down there who all gave her some loving, and the most she did was get a little rambunctious with her jumping up.  Steve was very proud of her, and it was a VERY positive experience for both Ari and Steve.  He did observe as have I that out in the open she is nervous when she sees people (and tries to hide between our legs) until they come closer and then she hams it up for them.  We ignore the nervous behavior so as to not encourage it and get happy when she gets all wiggly meeting new people, which in turn makes her extra wiggly.  For guests we do are expecting, we give them some tasty treats to greet Ari with so she associates new people with tasty tidbits.

Oh and I will DEFINITELY be calling the breeder, I am really afraid that she is going to rethink giving us the puppy, but I tend to think the worst possible thoughts and they never come true.  She kept one puppy from the litter so I'd be interested to see if she's experiencing excessive biting behavior as well. 
 

 The breeder will probably sympathize with you. This is a mouthy, obnoxious retriever puppy. She's got one (or more!) at her house, too. I bet she's got some really good training tips. I'm sure that she's been frustrated with puppies, herself, and felt exhausted and overwhelmed. I know I certainly have! When Emma was a baby.... she was terrible.

I wouldn't muzzle a puppy for nipping. I dislike muzzles, though, and only use them for serious training situations or necessary vet visits. Emma is conditioned to think of her muzzle as a good thing, that brings her praise and treats.

 jennie_c_d I am not fond of muzzles either.  I groomed for just over 5 years and I used a muzzle twice in all that time, and it was for the same dog (he calmed down with a muzzle on). 

I hope she will be understanding, like I said I tend towards the worst possible thoughts.  I might see if my SO will make the call as I'm afraid I'll start crying over the phone (I'm easy to tears and I hate that!) and that would just be so embarrassing. 

ok, I know NO is very popular, but forget it- dogs simply don't understand what it means. Have you ever heard a dog do a roar-bark? it's a very short, sharp sound, and all dogs know it means "STOP THAT NOW". Instead of using NO try to imitate the roar-bark: EH. Works far better than NO. Especially if you only use it occasionally.

the_gopher

I hope she will be understanding, like I said I tend towards the worst possible thoughts.  I might see if my SO will make the call as I'm afraid I'll start crying over the phone (I'm easy to tears and I hate that!) and that would just be so embarrassing. 

I understand how you feel, but first relax and realize that Ari's breeder is your best resource for dealing with any issue you have with your pup.  You are not to blame for Ari's issues, Ari is not to blame and neither is the breeder.  There is no blame, just a situation that needs to be resolved.

I don't know who your breeder is, but I believe she wants the best for Ari and to ensure that she will happily help you with this issue.  Also, being a breeder of flat-coats, she has to have a sense of humor and not take herself too seriously! 

GoldenAC

the_gopher

I hope she will be understanding, like I said I tend towards the worst possible thoughts.  I might see if my SO will make the call as I'm afraid I'll start crying over the phone (I'm easy to tears and I hate that!) and that would just be so embarrassing. 

 

I understand how you feel, but first relax and realize that Ari's breeder is your best resource for dealing with any issue you have with your pup.  You are not to blame for Ari's issues, Ari is not to blame and neither is the breeder.  There is no blame, just a situation that needs to be resolved.

I don't know who your breeder is, but I believe she wants the best for Ari and to ensure that she will happily help you with this issue.  Also, being a breeder of flat-coats, she has to have a sense of humor and not take herself too seriously! 

We set aside a time to talk to the breeder tomorrow (Saturday) morning.  Ari has been better last night and this morning.  I'm getting better recognonizing when she gets as I call it "crazy dog eyes" when she gets so wound up there's a point of no return - so I try to stop play just before she goes completely spazzed and this so far seems to help - whether it will always be the case remains to be seen. 

I will say she is incredibly lovey-dovey first thing in the morning.  We wake up between 5-5:30 and she was super cuddly and just wanted to stay close.  I enjoyed it while it lasted and then we had a good game going on with her current favorite toy (a rope almost as long as her!) and she only got too rowdy twice (trying to bite me instead of the toy) but nothing overly serious and I told her No Bite while she wasn't so far spazzed and she actually listened once!  Maybe it was coincidence, but I'll take it! 

I'm much calmer (reading the posts here really has helped) and I reminding myself this is a phase that will pass helps as well.  She's quite a goofy dog so when she's not biting me she has me in stitches with her antics!   

the_gopher

Ari's behavior is about the same.  Ignoring her and removing us from the room, only leads her to self amuse with toys.  She is still charging at me and this is the third time tonight she's bitten me in my crotch, I'm lucky I am not a man.  I went upstairs for about an hour took a nap, and my SO ignored her.  Didn't seem to faze her.  We can't seem to keep her off the couch and tethering her to one of us is really not an option given her biting issue.  I'm going to look into an indoor playpen for her, but it either needs to be entirely closed or high enough she can't jump over it.  

We are working on NILF, and any advice with this would be great as we are both new to it.  We're going to start clicker training, b/c we both think this would be easier for us to "capture" those moments she's doing something we want her to repeat. 

My SO wants to take away the toys and control this aspect of her environment as well.  My only concerns is this an OK thing to do with an 11 week old puppy?  Perhaps leave a chew toys down so she doesn't start picking the furniture as a chew toy (though I WISH she would pick the furniture over us as chew toys).

Currently what we are doing now if she bites us - if it's nothing overly dramatic we ignore and she does go away, but if she is completely in "puppy brain spazz mode" she charges and giving a LOUD ouch and leaving the room. 

I'm willing and able to take away the toys unless WE want to play with her, but I also do not want to cause more harm than good.   

How many chews does she have at the moment?  What you need to do is, buy about a zillion more.  Put a load in the fridge and put one in every pocket you own and one in each hand.  Make sure there are plenty of chew toys available for her.  Do you see where I am going with this?   At this stage you want to gently redirect her on to an appropriate item.  JUST ignoring her won't work yet because she just has to chew SOMETHING.  It's almost like she can;t help herself, you know?

This is what I do for a few days when I first bring a pup home.  After that I do "ouch!" and walk away fo the pup bit too hard.  With my ex boyfriends dog (boy that was a tough nut!) it required yelping and leaving the room THE VERY INSTANT teeth touched skin.  It was the only way he learned and that pupper was STRONG and his bites HURT!!!!! 

CoBuHe

the_gopher

She has a different approach, she's telling me I should keep my hands on her, still hands, till she calms down and directed me to a book/dvd to get called Get Connected by Brenda ALoff.  So I am a bit confused if I should go with the STOP NO BITE, or keep my hands on her till she calm.

There are a couple of other things you can try with the biting issue (which some folks on this board may blast me for):  when she comes at you and bites, firmly and with a low voice say "No" and press down on her tongue (towards the back, but not so far back that she will gag)...remember that dogs do not like uncomfortable; amd will steer away from anything that makes them feel that way.  Do that enough times, and she will realize what she is doing to make her uncomfortable.

Actually, this is what we did with Sally.  We had done this with our one cat that would bite us like crazy, and it worked.  When we got Sally, she was about a year old (according to the vet) and was still play biting (and knew no commands at all).  That needed to stop quick, fast, and in a hurry as she was 48 lbs so I did what we did with the cat.  It actually worked beautifully.  The play biting literally stopped within a day or two.

Oh Chuffy tommorrow I plan on going to the petstore with ARi in the carriage and there we will buy several more chew toys - right now she has 5 not including the raw meaty bone she gets once a day for a period of time to gnaw on (I swear she sees that bone and her eyes just about pop out of her head!).  We discovered she likes VERY bumpy surfaces for her chews so I'm going to try to find some more with nubs sticking out.  She could care less about the smooth nylabone we got her. I'm also going to see if I can find a buster cube for her and pick up some clickers.  I think she would respond well to clicker training - she's very food motivated.  She'll focus her whole self on you for a decent stretch of time (for a pup that is!) for a cookie. 

Ari got a bath tonight (she was quite stinky since she's taken to rolling in dirt) and she did very well....she liked to paw at the water coming out and she sat still for the scrubbing while the SO distracted her with peanut butter.  Then she proceeded to have super puppy zoomies around the living room looking like a bee stung her butt.  Had us laughing at her which caused her to get all wiggly and zoom harder. 

She's still very bitey and the tongue pressing thing had no effect on her, just made her want to play bite more   Today she seems to have an obsession with our shoes (while on our feet).  Keeping us on our toes that is for sure. 

I'm looking forward to getting her breeders thoughts, maybe the male she kept from the litter is going through something simliar.  At the very least she's had other other litters before and I'm sure had pups like Ari at some point!

the_gopher

She's still very bitey and the tongue pressing thing had no effect on her, just made her want to play bite more

I'm sure you know that it will take repetition for her to "get it".  Once or twice is not a cure-all.  and, you need to make it uncomfortable, perhaps using a fingernail.  Consistency is key as well.

Just curious as well, does she wear a collar indoors?

With our youngest dog, she had this HORRIBLE habit of bodyslamming you for attention at one point, because jumping up was encouraged rather than ignored when she was a pup.  (Men!)  ANYWAY, it wasn't just jumping up, it was BODYSLAMMING.  It HURT.  To correct it, what I did was, I put her lead on.  Idiotic behaviour = no freedom.  If she persisted I'd slip a hand through her collar and just hold still.  I wouldn't hold her HARD - just still.  At arms length, preferably.  When she calmed down, I'd relax and then hold her away again if she started again.  I actually only did this as a managemnet technique, while I was thinking up a way of fixing the problem... but it made the behaviour go away.  Even now, if she gets TOO excited (say, around visitors) a hand just resting ON her collar stops her straight away.

Ari does wear a collar indoors.WE dont' take it off just in case she were to ever get loose, it has her name, our phone numbers as well as the Homeagain tag on it.

I talked with her breeder today and she gave some good advice.  I'm going to be more conscientous of the tone of my voice (my voice is naturally high pitched and I'm typically a person that gives off energy) - so this has probably been contributing to the problem greatly.  I am noticing she's responding to my voice much better and calmer when I consciously control the tone and keep it rock steady.  This isn't easy for me to do, I normally talk fast and not very "soothing" like but I'm making the effort. 

And right now a sleepy Ari just woke up from a nice nap after not napping at all today (minus a short one in which she collapsed for a few minutes after some zoomies) and is kissing my leg. Time to go, we'll be headed to the petstore shortly at any rate. 

Again thank you all so much.