should we take away the toys?

the_gopher

 Yeah she's still a good breeder - just old fashioned.  I'm trying to sort through everyone's ideas/philosophies and find something that fits.  Not easy when for each person there's individual thoughts/feelings.

It's a twisty old road and no mistake!  And its GREAT that you have contact with the breeder and are willing to take her advice on board... but at the end of the day you got to cherry pick the advice from all sources that is going to work best in your situation. 

It sounds like things are improving for you which must be encouraging... hang in there and try to savour the Puppy Days while you can!  One day you will look back with rose tinted glasses and forget how trying it all was! 

 I would have no problem with taking a 13 week flat-coat out for a mile walk, as long as you take at least 45 minutes to do it.  Go at her pace, take it slow and let her sniff and explore.  Throw in some training, like attention work or more importantly let her off leash and teach her to follow you. I would not walk her that long on concrete, but on dirt trails, no problem.

In addition, I would up the training.  EVERY time she gets bitey, I would ask for behaviors.  Have her do some puppy push-ups.  Teach her some new tricks.  Or best yet, teach her a down stay.  Ask for one or two repeats, then stop if she is willing to desist in the biting stuff.  If not, have her do more behaviors.  She is a very smart energetic girl, use up her energy doing things you want her to do and at the same time you can show her positive ways of getting your attention.

 Golden, if it takes an hour to walk a mile I wouldn't mind - anything to get her out and about and away from the same old same old (I'm bored myself!).  I actually made her do touch when she started getting bitey today, just on impulse since she understands this command now on anything (yes she's too darn smart I'm having a hard time keeping up!) and she STOPPED biting, touched my palm, then I had her do a sit.  Then I got a toy and told her that it was "YOURS" in a happy voice and distracted her further with that.  I think I threw her totally off guard and it was great!  We are still working on getting down.  Funny she got sit, touch, and leave it (I upped leave it to a pile of treats on the floor) but down she's still not solid on. I need to plaster a clicker in my hand and capture down more - but I'm still new to the clicker so it hasn't become second nature to me yet either. 

Golden, what's your thoughts on swimming?  I'd love to take her wading down by the river (not necessarily swimming) but unsure due to vaccine status.  I keep reading retriever sites (not necessarily flat coats) taking their pups out as young as 8 weeks.  Just not sure though - but I do know she gets bored fast so anything new right now would be great.  Tonight's dinner will be the hidden Kong (or most of dinner, not all of it will fit in there.).  Most of lunch today was fed by hand and making her work for it.  

I also praise her and if treats are handy give her one when she comes up nicely to me and does not jump or bite at me or my clothing.  So hopefully that will sink in that I LIKE her coming up to me when it does not involve her nails or teeth!   She's a stubborn tenacious dog though, and well a puppy with a pea brain.  Love her though. 

Things ARE getting better - she has her moments when I swear she will not live to see adulthood, but I take a step back and breathe, and do my best to redirect the situation into a more appropiate behavior.  I do love the bugger to pieces though, and would not trade her in for anything.  Right now she's "helping" my SO do laundry. I do not think she approves of how he does laundry, b/c he will not drop a sock or shirt for her to run off with!

the_gopher

I actually made her do touch when she started getting bitey today, just on impulse since she understands this command now on anything (yes she's too darn smart I'm having a hard time keeping up!) and she STOPPED biting, touched my palm, then I had her do a sit.  Then I got a toy and told her that it was "YOURS" in a happy voice and distracted her further with that.  I think I threw her totally off guard and it was great! 

Woo hoo!  Way to go! 

the_gopher

Funny she got sit, touch, and leave it (I upped leave it to a pile of treats on the floor) but down she's still not solid on.

Down is one of the hardest for them to learn.  Try charging a "word" now, one you can use like a clicker when a clicker is not handy.  pick one like "YES!" or "Bingo!" something short and train yourself to say it the same each time.  Then you should be able to capture the down even if you have no clicker handy.  You CAN still capture without a clicker or marker word - I did that with my mums dog.  I waited till he lay down and then threw a party!  I threw a chewie for him to chase and he brought it back, I paused a beat and he lay down again, so I threw ANOTHER party and threw the chewy AGAIN.  After that I started saying "down" just before he lay down so he paired ithe word with the action.  We still used it a lot at playtime so Walter still thinks "wow, this laying down is a real fun GAME!!!!!" He LOVES to lay down!  He does it at every opportunity!  I think this might work for Ari too, because she also likes everything to be a game

the_gopher

Golden, what's your thoughts on swimming?  I'd love to take her wading down by the river (not necessarily swimming) but unsure due to vaccine status.  I keep reading retriever sites (not necessarily flat coats) taking their pups out as young as 8 weeks.  Just not sure though - but I do know she gets bored fast so anything new right now would be great.  Tonight's dinner will be the hidden Kong (or most of dinner, not all of it will fit in there.).  Most of lunch today was fed by hand and making her work for it.  

Swimming is great!  Selli went in the water the day we got her, although it took her about a week to actually swim.  I have witnessed and known about a dozen other retrievers (mostly labs) who went into the water at less than 12 weeks without any problems.  Are there risks?  Yes, but you can do a great deal to minimize them.  First of all make sure the water the puppy is going into has a solid bottom, that is that it is sandy or rocky, not mucky.  Make sure there is no algae growing in the body of water.  If it is a lake or pond, go for one that is spring fed or is fed by a stream or river.  A deeper pond or lake is better than a shallower one (given that you want a shallow area to teach Ari to swim).  In a stream or river, go for an area where there is some current and a solid bottom, but not too much of a current for an unexperienced dog.  Finally, if you have a body of water or river in mind, do an internet search to find out if anyone (typically the municipality) has done a recent water quality analysis on the water.  Leptsos, which is found in areas with *** of infected animals usually occurs in still or stagnant waters and other yucky stuff typically occurs in areas with mucky bottoms and backed up waters.

Ari should love to swim, once again, introduce it to her slowly and if you can let her go swimming with other dogs, all the better.

 Good Luck! 

 Chuffy Ari is a VERY serious dog....ya right!  I will confer with the SO with a word that he doesn't mind using for those moments we don't have the clicker handy...I like Bingo, because I say Yes a lot excitedly when talking about something but I never use Bingo.  \

I was VERY surprised she stopped biting and touched my hand instead, I was so proud of her!  This might not work when she is full on "puppy's brain has left the building" moments but it's another tool at my disposal. 

We did some more work on leash manners today, and I think I really need to coat her leash in Vicks or Bitter Apple (we ran out today) because holding on the leash and giving no slack just causes her to target my hand and Ari is VERY flexible, she can contort herself like no ones business.  But we did have some really great moments on the leash, this will just take a little bit of work.  Once I can get it down what games she likes that physically tire her out, I will have an easier time training her to walk nicely on the leash - she gets over excited with all the smells and things on the ground to try and eat.

 Excellant advice Golden thank you, I will be passing your thoughts on to my SO.  The river I have in mind is sandy bottom, and fairly slow moving and fairly shallow where the beach area is - plenty shallow for her to do just walking around in for the time being.  It's not algae infested at this time, though late summer when/if there hasn't been much rain and the water level goes down, I would not personally swim in it.  Outside of that I live in the Lakes Region of NH so there are TON of options around here. I just need to get up on local knowledge where the public access beaches are - and verify dogs are welcome and if not on the beaches where there may be other areas that are shallow and clear to bring a dog in.  I'm sure I can find information on Leptsos which was my main concern.  Thankfully the vet said while present in this area, it's not prevelant and he's only seen rare cases of it.  We have made the decision to vaccinate her for it, but that's in the next series. 

I think Ari will LOVE swimming.  Naturally of course I want to make sure that it's a positive experience for her - and I'm working on trying to find out how one goes about meeting other dog folk - particularly ones with younger pups for her to tucker herself out with.  I would hate to have to wait another three weeks before meeting any other dogs (the ones she did meet were only in our area for a family get together and they were really sweet to stop by before hand with the dogs, other than that they live nearly 2 hours away unfortunately since Ari and Kota the husky really got along great!).  

Right now Ari is all sorts of tuckered out in her favorite spot in the living room and doing her little puppy dreaming whimpers.  We had some great clicker training sessions today and I only had to do hands on correction for biting twice (holding her by her collar and putting a steadying hand on her body) and both times she calmed down far quicker than she has in the past.  

Things are getting better, and when they are crazy I'm better at remaining calm.

I am so so so so so PROUD of Ari today I could cry.  She's met her first children today (my bosses kids -2 of them-) and is currently in my bosses office (he's keeping an eye on kids and Ari alike) playing SO nicely with them and making sure their hands and faces are clean.  His kids are old enough to know how to play with a puppy and they are having a blast together.  

Kids and Ari alike are quite taken with each other  

 WTG Ari!  That's great, and this kind of socialisation is *wonderful* for her.

Ari is so great with kids, she looooves them she met some more in our neighborhood (she sees kids and gets REALLY WIGGLY to kiss their hands and face).  Working on the jumping though (we do not allow her to jump on us or anything, but she's so excitable she "forgets";) but she plays great with them - even when they make high pitch noises (I swear I do more training of the kids than with Ari when she's with them - I was worried about biting b/c she gets too excited and high pitched noises over excite her but she has not nipped a kid yet). 

Ari IS definitely showing improvement in biting us and our clothing - still not there, but she settles down faster and sometimes I see her brain going and watch her force herself to contain her enthusiam lol.  I am better able to redirect her, and I think her brain is starting to develop more   so she can actually focus a tad more when she's over excited.

She is however still more noticeably attached to me and will wait for me and ignore my SO if I leave the room and whine for me.  I probably don't help matters, where I bring her to work with me and therefore spend the most amount of time with her.   But having my SO bring her to his work is out of the question (no dogs allowed as he works at a university).  I try to stay away from her (as much as possible, without flat out ignoring her all night of course) and ignore her when we are home to force both my SO and Ari to interact with each other.  I never interrupt any of their time together, or when he's working with her on clicker training etc....

We have a trainer coming tonight and I really am anxious to work with him and getting her to focus on what we want - because we still are not the most important thing in the room if she decides she wants on the couch, or if she's in puppy brainless mode and biting (which is happening less thankfully).  So being able to find some method of working with her and getting her to figure out that if she does what we want it's better than doing something that we don't want her to do will be wonderful.  I don't expect perfection of course!  

She's growing by leaps and bounds and has really lost that puppy face (I'm having issues with uploading pictures right now).  I had to extend her crate divider again, and to be honest I think we can just take it out.  She will not have an accident in her crate, she'll whine and paw at the crate to wake us up.  She also has "kennel up" down solid and will hop right in when I ask her to no matter what else is going on (including during zoomies - I don't lock her in when she becomes totally bitey, but I tell her to kennel up, she does, calms down walks out and is focused on me again. 

We are finding she does better confined in the kitchen than in the living room with us in terms of signaling us to go out (we take her out regularly but sometimes she needs to go sooner than we think she may).  Her poop is MUCH better on the new food so that makes me happy (much easier to pick up).

Oh and Ari had her first swim on Saturday and LOOOVED it.  She hasn't quite figured out the swimming part, but she loves being in the water none-the-less and will swim to me if I go to a spot that's deep enough she needs to swim in.  She had a blast being on the sandy beach and digging holes to lay in :)  Also, it tuckered her right out and that's a bonus! 

I got REALLY ANGRY (I don't get angry much) with a neighbor with his off leash lab who charged into Ari (I managed to block most of the charge), he wasn't aggressive (thank goodness) just excited but he's easily got 50 lbs on her and knocked her over (she was fine, like I said I blocked most of it).  Pets are supposed to be leashed in our condo community as well as in the town in general.  I did not get his unit number but if I see it again I will log a complaint - because that was unacceptable.  Ari could have gotten hurt, or it could have scared her to the point of being wary around dogs (thankfully she was frightened but got over it quickly and was happy to see the lab).  Aside from just me and Ari, not everyone likes dogs, and this dog did not have good recall or voice control over.  Pets are frequently complained about in the community (being off leash and owners not picking up the poop) and people like him ruin it for the ones who are responsible.  I actually had a neighbor THANK ME for picking up the poop saying that she gets so sick of seeing it, and it was nice to see someone do the right thing.  She also really liked Ari :) who could charm just about anyone (not that I'm biased). 

Ari also loves ice.  I think ice may be the highest value treat we have found yet.  It's the ONLY thing she begs for.  I make her do puppy pushups for it lol. 

So things are better, I'm a heck of a lot calmer - Ari's "calmer" (if a 14-week old flat-coated retriever puppy is ever calm that is!) and I'm really just looking forward tonight with the trainer!
 

I was so happy to read your update!  It sounds like you guys are making great improvements.  See, we told you so     Just kidding! 

Looking forward to hearing all about your upcoming visits with the trainer.  And, so glad to hear you say that you don't expect perfection...she is still a baby after all.  But the coaching you will get from the trainer will help you going foward.

Yay Ari and Yay You!

 Yeah, I don't expect perfection out of anyone or any dog....but I do need to nip (pun intended) this biting behavior.  She's a VERY focused dog, that's hard to unfocus, or keep her attention for more than a couple minutes at a time and that's ok but the biting hurts and I don't have money to be replacing my entire wardrobe!  When she gets it in her head to do something, good luck trying to redirect her attention.  But, I also can't keep her attention and amused 24/7 either - so Ari and I are trying to find middle ground :) 

She's VERY smart.  So I'm working towards finding out what SHE considers to be better than doing the behaviors I do not want her to do (like getting on the couch and biting at my body or clothing). She's a lot better now that I've decided to throw caution to the wind and ignore the vet and breeders advice to keep her indoors for the most part.  I take her out to the fields to run around like a crazy puppy (that she is) till she poops herself out, flops down and looks up at me with those happy puppy dogs eyes and tongue lolling out of her mouth.  Once she's vaccinated, there's a weekly dog social that is held in town for $5 that I will bring her to when I can (you need reservations and I will find out more about this tonight as it's the trainer we hired that runs it) and there's a couple dog social hours further away from us, but not un-doable. 

I love Ari's outlook on life (hence the reason I got a flat coat), I just was not prepared for a dog/puppy that I would have such a hard time redirecting the biting.  I've worked with many dogs and many puppies (albeit this is the first puppy I've had full time) and NONE of the methods I've used in the past really work with her.  I need to use several and keep things fun and just know when she needs to just spaz out outside where she won't be focused on my body so much.  Also a raw recreational bone stuffed with frozen peanut butter and cottage cheese works wonders for distraction and calming
 

One of the reasons I followed this thread is because your experiences with Ari mirrored the experiences I had with Heidi.  I have never had a puppy with such willfullness, such independence and so hard tempered.  I had bruises and nip marks on me for months, literally.  It was tough going for a while there.  I at a few points thought that she was too much dog for me even as a pup.  But, I kept at it.  Did all of the things that folks with other hard dogs advised and even recently when I sent her off to "boot camp", I confided in the trainer my thoughts of being a failed owner, and my thoughts of her being too much dog for me.  He immediately told me "No, she's not too much dog for you, she just needs to understand who has the opposable thumbs."  LOL and so true.

She will try to show her willfullness at times and I always show her my thumbs.    I love that dog; and she loves me...there are few things better than a love session with my Heidigirl.  It did get better for me and as you know now, it will get better for you.

CoBuHe - I have wondered if I am completely inept at times and I LOVE what the trainer said about opposable thumbs!  I love Ari, and anyone who sees us together knows its mutual.  But she is willful, stubborn and FOCUSED - and to be frank I even love that about her.  I have bite marks, scratch marks and she got me good the other day (puncture on my wrist with a pretty bruise and bump) - but that was an accident and my fault (I had a toy and she jumped and got me instead of the toy, b/c I did not have it high enough out of reach).   I have two little scars on my inner thigh that I'm not sure will ever go away fully and other assorted bruises compliments of her, but each day brings improvements and achievements and I love her more and more - even if I'm all battered!  Nothing beats seeing her butt wiggle when I ask if she wants to go in the car, or see her concentrating during a clicker session.  Or those rare times she's completely mellow and sleepy and just wants to curl up near me and have me rub her ears till she dozes off. 

glad to hear things are getting better and you are getting the hang of it. sounds like you guys have a lotta fun together! :)

oh and, i have 2-3 permanent scars from my dog's nails, since i always tend to forget to enforce the no jump rule, once it's time to wear long pants again. then, every summer, i live to regret it! lol...

way to go ari!!!