feeling mislead

but this is not an 8 week old puppy- this is puppy sold at age 5 months who shouldn't be in a fear period and should have a stable temperament until adolescence hits. Presumably most of the litter was placed, and the breeder is definitely at fault for not taking the time to socialize one or two remaining puppies in the critical 12 to 16 weeks period.

jenns

The breed is described as cautious and discerning and not friendly with strangers, I just thought those traits would develop in adulthood.  I am so afraid his behavior now will turn into aggression later.  And I already have a reactive dog who can be aggressive in certain situations.  I can totally see him biting a child one day.  I can't even walk them together because they feed off each other's reactions.  I am working on it, and making progress, but I don't think it will ever be a 100% turnaround

Is it possible that Zack is taking his behavior cues from Zoe?  And, not meaning to lay blame, but there is no way I'd ever walk an impressionable young pup with a reactive older dog if I didn't want the puppy to learn to be reactive. 

Personally, I'd ask the breeder for help.  I'd ask if this is typical of her lines.  I'd ask if she is seeing these behaviors in littermates.  It is possible that this breeding was an outcross to a line that might have brought unexpected issues and surely she'd want to know that. 

Thank you guys for all your thoughtful responses. As for the breeder being dishonest, I have to agree that I can't say for sure whether she purposefully witheld information or simply gave me the information that she saw.  What I do know is that she had chosen me, out of a number of people, as Zack's new home.  She loved the fact that I wanted to do obedience and agility with him.  One thing I forgot to mention in my posts is that at least one of Zacks parents has a CD title, in fact quite a number of her dogs do and I know one of them has his CGC.  She also like the fact that I have another small dog for him to play with, and that I have knowledge and an interest in dogs and doing things right beyond your average dog owner.  Maybe she knew that no matter what, I would work with him through any issues.  There were only 2 pups in this litter, the girl was spoken for already.  The deposit I put down was for him specifically.

 I entered him into the last 4 classes of a puppy kindergarten session, and next week is the last class of beginning agility.  We will be starting intermediate agility in a few weeks.  He is doing very well with agility, some of the dogs in the class are scared to death of the equipment but he had no hesitation.  In fact, the agility class I would say has helped him gain confidence more than anything else I have done.  In the class he actually runs up to people and jumps on them, looking for food handouts. I also take him to Zoe's agility classes. But he is super comfortable in the training facility.  When we go to new places this is not the case, but now at least he isn't exploding into barking and growling episodes at everyone if I take him to a pet store (he still does with some people, but not as a rule).   We have made progress, so I have to focus on that I think.  As one of the posters said, I think I am so afraid of failure and of the possibility that he will turn out worse than Zoe.  I have gone home in tears on several occassions during their reactivity episodes after hearing comments from people like "what is wrong with your dog?  He hates everything!"  And "boy are those dogs of yours feisty!"  or "your dog sure thinks he's tough!"  I don't want to be one of "those" people that others assume must not train their dogs because they're small.

 And I do understand that being monorchid means that he is pet quality.  I am totally fine with pet quality, I don't need a show dog nor did I ask for one.  But, I did not know about the potentially complicated neuter or the elevated cancer risk.  I still would have taken him, that would not have made a difference.  It was just the fact of not being told, tied in with everything else, is what got me thinking I was purposely mislead.

I also thought about the possiblity of this being a fear period.  I try to take him out to different places but I am also afraid that he will have bad experiences which will make this worse.  I try to tell people how I want them to interact with the dog if they want to pet him,but people don't always listen, especially kids.

 It is really helpful to read posts here about success stories with fearful puppies. I think that is what keeps me positive, so thanks to those who shared them :)

 I am, for the most part, working with both dogs separately but there are some circumstances where there is no choice but to walk them together, like during lunch when my dog walker comes by, she is only there for 20 minutes so both dogs have to go out to the do their business and get their excercise together.  It probably doesn't help the situation.

jenns

I also thought about the possiblity of this being a fear period.  I try to take him out to different places but I am also afraid that he will have bad experiences which will make this worse.  I try to tell people how I want them to interact with the dog if they want to pet him,but people don't always listen, especially kids.

 It is really helpful to read posts here about success stories with fearful puppies. I think that is what keeps me positive, so thanks to those who shared them :)

If you would like a sucess story here is another for you... Nemo was born to a very , very well bred litter up north.  Unfortunately it was in early January lots of snow...Breeder had a few adult friends around the pups, and then some teen aged Nephews/Nieces... about this point his tail was somehow broken at the base (3-5 weeks) , most likely grabbed and pulled as by the time I picked him up it was totally healed.  He accepted Bob and I right off,  We did not give him any choice, just reaching in and hauling him out of the breeder's crate and a series of cuddles, it was cold so until I was able to run buy him a puppy coat Bob tucked him into his jacket ... Nemo came home to my very busy chaotic home and growled at everyone!!   He had no clue how to socialize, how to be the little guy , how to deal with a large rowdy pack and people who from 2 years old to 32 would never heasitate to cuddle a puppy inhaling that sweet puppy breath as if it was the single most expensive scent in the world!!

He gradually learned to figure out the adults, they instinctively know how to slow movement and read the puppy's body language... Thank God for my 5 awesome Grandkids... each were given free access to a special cookie jar and they were encouraged to give the boy as many as he wanted... I stopped feeding him his second meal so the cookies were important to him... slowly we changed the rules from him hiding behind me or Bob and grumbling while hoping a cookie would be left for him , to the kids getting on the floor and leaving a cookie a few feet away , making him close the distance a bit at a time.... He now follows the kids eager for treats that he knows they happily lavish on him. Every now and then the more confident 4 year old plops a kiss on his head and then she is off again, a quick hug that would have panicked him 2 months ago is do-able now..... He may pull back if he sees it coming or if it is the youngest but I no ,longer fear he will snap and bite... the boy is growing and learning, again the 4 year old is a wonder walking him on a lead and talking non stop to him...  When he goes to his forever home he will be a different dog, the new owners could not have changed him, not because they would not adore and love him but they would not know where to coax and when to be matter of fact.   Bribery I Highly reccommend it and if puppy did not seem motivated no problem you create the hunger and respond with praise and treats , they learn quickly finding the hand that holds and smells of cookies is also the one that pets so sweetly. We take him to softball games and the outlet mall , a bag  of favorite treats and  a lot of patience, practice basic commands and at the end of the day I check how many treats are left and I adjust his evening meal accordingly...  This guy will be what his family needs him to be ....

Bonita of Bwana

jenns

I also thought about the possiblity of this being a fear period. 

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html

Flight Instinct Period - 4 to 8 months

"Seems to forget everything previously learned."  ...

Second Fear Period - 6 to 14 months

Many dogs will show a rise in their level of aggression (reactivity) during this time. They may become protective and territorial, and may make a new attempt to dominate owners. Incidents of teenage flakiness may recur.  ...  Corresponds with growth spurts. Therefore it may happen more than once as the puppy matures.  ... 

Read the rest of the descriptions.

Another site:  http://www.dogclub.co.uk/advice/puppygrowth.php

jenns

But, I did not know about the potentially complicated neuter or the elevated cancer risk. 

As long as you plan to neuter before 2-years-old, the cancer shouldn't be a problem.  If it does occur it is initially self-contained and is cured by neutering.  The long term problems occur if the cancer metastasizes or if it is a type that destroys the immune system. 

One of my sisters had a dog that she adopted as a "neutered", healthy, extremely shy 2-year-old.  Four years later during exploratory surgery on the 6-year-old, the shocked vet identified an abdominal mass as cancerous testicles.  The dog survived the surgery and the surgeon thought that she got all the cancer, but his immune system was already gone.  Unable to heal from the surgery, he was released from his pain.

Neutering at 2-years-old would probably have resulted in a healthy 6-year-old.  Unless I have proof of a neuter, I will always test any male I adopt.  Otherwise, I would constantly worry.

Zack's neuter may be a little more expensive and take a little longer, but if you make sure that there is a heart monitor and that isoflurane gas anesthetic is used, he should be fine.  I would also go for the pre-surgery bloodwork to check out his liver and kidneys.

tiffy

I have an oversized min. pin who is almost 6 and is still not housetrained. I keep him on a strict potty schedule and he still makes messes, so I feel for you. 

Well I have a 12 yr old minpin who is still marking in the house, been neutered since 9mos LOL.  It's partially the breed, I think!

Minpins/manchesters have similar terrier temperaments.  When I first got Gobie, he was impossible to housetrain (I even spent the ENTIRE day outside with him in the grass waiting for him to potty.  When I gave up at 8pm, he peed on the concrete on the way up to our apartment...)  anyway, he was freaky around people and new situations, an incessant barker and bit people. 

I nearly had him euthanized, but instead found a great trainer and started socializing the heck out of him.  He is very smart, soared through several levels of obedience, enjoyed agility immensely and worked through his biting issues.  Now he is very friendly to everyone, as long as I tell him it's ok (he starts out by barking at and raising his hackles) and he'll happily bring a ball to the person and pester them to throw it for as long as they'll tolerate it LOL.

Also, puppy testicles are a funny thing.  They may well have both been decended when he left the breeders.  Any scary situation and the pup can pull the testicles up into the body.  For a while the testicles pop in and out of the body and into the *** freely.  Then the opening closes and if one or both of the testicles happens to be up, they'll stay up. 

It would be worth an email to ask about the monorchidism though, and her suggestions on socializing the pup.  Remember too, that during the first year-18 months dogs have "fear periods" which are critical to their development. If they experience something really scary during that time, it can influence their behavior for the rest of their life. 

Good luck with little Zach.