feeling mislead

I'm sorry your breeder mislead you, but I think you've got the wrong idea of show breeders....

You wanted a pet quality puppy. You got it. Monorchids cannot be shown, and should be neutered. Despite what may be otherwise perfect conformation, he is pet quality. It could have just as easily been a bad bite, or a funny gait, or a weird ear set. 

There is plenty of incentive for show breeders to have good temperament, and social dogs. A dog who is flipped out and snapping at judges is NOT going to get the points. Have you met her other dogs? Maybe Zack is a fluke... Some dogs *are* naturally more social than others. I have a dog here who came from a PUPPY MILL, and loves everything and everybody. She's a social butterfly, with a strong den instinct. Go figure.... 

jennie_c_d

I have a dog here who came from a PUPPY MILL, and loves everything and everybody.

Wait.. Ena came from a puppy mill, and she's show quality?

Jenn.. I don't know what to tell you, because I have no experience with dogs from breeders... But I've heard so much here recently about puppies coming from "reputable breeders" and not having been socialized at all before going to their new homes, that I really fail to see how they're reputable. Combine that with what seems like similar risk of health problems as you'd get in a shelter dog, and I really can't see myself ever buying a pup...

 Yup. It's insane. She's got gorgeous conformation. There are quite a few show mills, around here. I didn't buy Ena. She was given to me by a friend, who purchased her, then couldn't care for her. I was looking for a Chinese Crested to show, but I wanted a pink, polka dotted male. I got a slate female. Oops. Every time I look for a dog, something different comes my way....

Here's some info that really helped me with my unsocialized, adopted, 5 mo. shelter puppy.  He will always have fearful tendencies but with daily (and I do mean DAILY, especially between now and about a year old, then you can cut back but only by a little) exercises in desensitization and counter-conditioning, you can help bring him along.  These resources can also work on your other dog and help him be less reactive.  It's not easy by any means and it can be very discouraging, but if you don't want to have dogs that bite people or that drive you crazy with their fears and phobias, you've got to help them learn that the world is not a big scary place.  It's something that should have happened in their early puppyhood, but it didn't, so now we have to do alot of extra work to help our dogs do with work what alot of properly socialized dogs do naturally.  You're right to keep them separated and work on their issues separately.  Fearful dogs can really feed on each other.  Woobie picked up thunderphobia from Indie.  There's also a Shyk9s group on Yahoo groups that has lots of owners of fearful and reactive dogs that can be a great resource for tips and tricks.

Good luck!

www.ddfl.org/behavior/fearful-dog.pdf

From HSUS

Desensitization to Other dogs 

Books:

Cautious Canine

Fearfulness by Ian Dunbar 

Calming Signals  This book really helped me at the dog park to know when my dog was stressed, to see it in other dogs before things got dicey and to watch my dog when he's approaching something new to see the signs of tension before they become a problem.  Being able to detect these changes very early is essential to desensitization exercises. 

Click To Calm  I got this book later in Woobie's training and have not worked through all the exercises as yet, but it's consistently recommended among shy/reactive dog owners and written very well and in easy to understand language.

jennie_c_d

Have you met her other dogs? Maybe Zack is a fluke... Some dogs *are* naturally more social than others. I have a dog here who came from a PUPPY MILL, and loves everything and everybody. She's a social butterfly, with a strong den instinct. Go figure.... 

 The breeder did invite me to her home to meet all of her dogs.  In fact, she insisted.  I declined because of the long drive and we agreed to meet somewhere in the middle.  Zoe came from a commercial breeder and although she can be aggressive in certain situations, she didn't come to me that way.  She was super -outgoing, social and confident.  That's why I'm afraid if Zack is like this as a puppy, what will he be like as an adult?

chelsea - yes I agree, part of the definition of a reputable breeder should be breeding for temperment and proper socialization.  With Zack, the first problem was that he was born in the fall, and therefore was a winter puppy  The breed is notorious for hating cold weather and Zack is no exception.  They will flat out refuse to go out and do their business.  She kept him indoors and paper trained him.  She also has a lot of dogs and they are all in her house, no outside kennels.  So it's hard for her to leave with a puppy every day to take him everywhere for proper socialization.  From her description of him, though, he sounded like one of those pups who manage to turn out just fine even without socialization.  I know many dogs like that.

jenns

I keep wanting to write the breeder and tell her but I feel like it is pointless, it's not like I am asking for money back or to return him.  I don't know, should I email her?  What can she possibly tell me?  Oh, and she also failed to mention the fact that he is monorchid (1 testicle) until I already put my deposit down. 

Yes, I think you should email her.  Start out with the fact that you love Zack and don't have any intention of returning him.  Then tell her that you think that for the sake of her breeding program she should know how his temperament has turned out.

She could say "thank you" for letting her know and that she is sorry that you are having to deal with this.

Being monorchid puts Zack at a higher risk for testicular cancer and it will make his neuter more expensive.  This is more than just a conformation flaw.  The surgeon will have to hunt for the testicle and that should have been disclosed before a deposit was put down!

Stories like these are what cause me to have such insanely high criteria for good breeding.  I don't want to consider any breeder that can't point to any of their dogs and tell me point blank, without inferring emotions, what the dog's faults are. NO dog is perfect, and potential buyers/adopters need to know all they can about the dog.  Just because there is a conformation fault or temperament issue does not make the dog "bad" or unworthy of a loving home and fulfilling life.  Yes, the breeder accepts full responsibility for that dog, but it's not fair to "hold back" that dog when it can go on to perform in other areas and excel at certain things as long as the "fault" is taken into account.  Kenya's breeder told me straight up what her issues were and what she felt I could expect from her.  I've always known where her weaknesses are and what areas of training we will not pursue and to this day I appreciate the breeder being totally open and honest about her, answering every specific question about her training, socialization, and up-bringing.

ETA - just read the monorchid part.  Yeah that is not ethical, not disclosing something like that.

Thanks for the info BC Mixes, I actually do have Click to Calm and Calming Signals.  They have been helpful, although I think I must be too impatient because I was hoping to see more progress.  It's good to know that you were able to help your puppy.  With rescue and shelter dogs, putting in a lot of time to get them over behavioral issues is often part of the process, and it's rewarding to help out a needy dog and get him over his issues.  But to pay a thousand dollars for a dog that needs all this work, well...

 The monorchid situation - what janet_rose said is exaclty why I was unhappy it wasn't disclosed.  It should have been. 

I feel guilty writing about this as Zack sits in my lap as I type, licking my face.  His love and affection is what keeps me at it,working with him to get him over his fears.  And also why I'm cleaning up housebreakign messes almost every day .   One great thing about him is that he seems to be a natural on the agility course and hopefully we can go far with that.   Although, I would trade that ability any day for a stable temperment.

I have an oversized min. pin who is almost 6 and is still not housetrained. I keep him on a strict potty schedule and he still makes messes, so I feel for you. 

 When I got Keela, she was 9 months old and had been in the show ring for 3 months. She wouldn't hold her tail up and just wasn't working out as a show dog - thus the rehome. At first, I didn't know what I had gotten into. She was sweet, but temperament wise - I was shocked to find how fearful she was of common, everyday behaviors, people, and things. She was sold as a pet, but I could show her if I wanted since I was considering getting into showing. The breeder thought some one on one work might help her do better in the ring. It has taken a lot of work, but she is a totally different dog - beyond my expectations different. She has turned out to be a great dog - not only to learn to show with, but as one of the best love bugs you could ever wish for who now loves to say hi to everyone.

Now, I am not going to say it was easy - because it wasn't. She doesn't have a bad temperament, she just wasn't socialized and trained on the level that worked for her. She isn't a dog that you force to do something. But if you ask her to do it - she will. Cooperation, not dominance. Figuring that one out has helped me tremendously with training her - that and the clicker. I took her every where with me that I could - with lots and lots of treats. I started out small with short trips and just a few people that I knew I could trust that had dog sense. I was able to slowly get her over her fear of strange places, things, and people. It took me over a year to get her to the point she is now.

Part of her temperament problems was that she was raised in a kennel with a very much different pack structure than what everyday people have in their homes with their dogs. Human body language was foreign to her even though her breeder trained her for the show ring and lots of strangers. The slightest move on our part made her fearful and reactive. A pat of the foot or the hand on the floor and you could see her body tense and posture slide towards aggressiveness. I truly believe that in some breeder's homes, there is a different atmosphere in their homes and in the dog packs. And house training! It was a total nightmare! Part of it was due to her being used to eliminating when every she had the need (in the indoor/outdoor kennel, it didn't matter where or when she went). She got that she was supposed to ask to go outside, but if you weren't right there - she had an accident. I would say that just in the past 6 months has she gotten better, but I don't know that I will ever totally trust her in the house.

I say all this to encourage you that it isn't as bad as it may seem right now. I was where you are over a year ago, and I still can't believe the dog that I have now. It is night and day difference in Keela's temperament. Figuring out what makes your guy tick and what will work best to help him get over it may take some time, but all hope is not necessarily lost that he will always be a fearful or aggressive dog. 

Now the subject of the monorchid is a different story. It should have been disclosed.

I hope you and the little guy can get on the same wave length to find his best potential. I am so glad I did with Keela!

Amy
Whitehouse's Tequila Sunrise (now with 2 AKC points)

he may well have had both when she sold him to you...I would not jump up and assume he didn't. Male puppies testicles can yo yo for MONTHS. I had a puppy that was excused from the ring for ONE testicle when it was there the entire time leading up to being on the table...and returned right after he showed...LOL. This was a SIX-SEVEN MONTH OLD. This dogs testicles have been down from then on and he's a proven stud dog and Canadian Ch. He had two when I sold him...he had 2 when he went to show...but that one day...he had ONE. LOL.

Honestly? The temperament issue to me is paramount to the testicle issue. It's really hard to say she knowingly sold you the puppy sans testicle once you know how incredibly tiny, and moveable..they are in a given set of circumstances.

Oh wait..re reading she DID tell you he was monorchid before he was paid in full..but after the deposit. I assume that you still wanted him anyways since you took him and did not really get into discussions on if your deposit could be returned because of the surgery costs etc to remove the retained testicle?...assuming it stayed up there...which they don't always, actually.

ETA: the above sounds badgering..don't mean it to...I am just trying to get a sense of what you felt when it was in fact..disclosed...did the deposit and purchase happen on the same day? Oh and was your deposit on "a pet puppy" or "this" pet puppy? Meaning did she have a puppy for you or did you have to wait til the litter was assessed...and what reason did she give you for his being a "pet" puppy?

I agree about the monorchid comments -- Kaiser's breeder admitted that his testicles "moved around" a lot and he frequently went from two to one.  He's about 5 1/2 months now and they still move around.

Has Zack not been neutered?  Perhaps getting that over with would help some of your problems --- Sometimes dogs that truly retain a testicle in their abdoman have unnaturally high levels of hormones.  Yes, the neuter will cost a bit more, but he will hopefully relax a bit afterwards.

The breed is described as cautious and discerning and not friendly with strangers, I just thought those traits would develop in adulthood. 

Absolutely not!  If this is the breed trait, it's there from the moment they are born.  Klee Kai are also known for this very same thing -- I got Kaiser at 3 months and he has been this way from day one.  I have worked HARD to socialize and train him and he is much better, but he still doesn't trust or like anyone but me.  His puppy class has been great for him and he's now super confident and social with other dogs.  The best people socialization he gets is at Luke's agility trials, but he's also around new people every day at work with me.  We work EVERY day on this, but I still doubt he will ever be the sort of dog that runs up to new people to say hello.  It is more my goal to make sure that he doesn't become fear aggressive and to make him comfortable in new situations.

Are you currently in a training class?  With a dog like this I would keep him in CONSTANT training -- for both the obedience/skill work and for the socialization aspect.  I know someone who started to bring his shy, skittish Klee Kai to class in January and has enrolled her in each session since then -- she is a completely different dog now with so much more personality and confidence.  The worst thing you can do is keep a dog like this hidden away at home because you are afraid of his reaction in public.  You must get out there and you must do the work.

I don't see much point in e-mailing the breeder the way you have mentioned.  What is the point?  If you want to ask her for her suggestions that's fine, but if you don't want to return him I don't see the point in complaining.

One of my breeder criterions is that they don't own tons of dogs. And do more than just the conformation ring.